Discussion Tier List for 2018 Rotation

Guzma also gets around baby Ninetails without needing to damage it and most decks will be running 3.

Volc doesn't use Volc EX as an attacker anymore. You'll see it with 2-3 Turtonator GX and 1-2 Ho-oh GX. Assuming Kiawe t1, you're OHKOing Garde t2 with 1 Steam Up and a Choice Band.

Drampa only uses Trashalanche Garb as a secondary attacker it opportunity presents itself. Garbotoxin is the main reason to run Garb. Drampa with Choice Band still OHKOs almost all big basics and Po Town gets the stage 1s and 2s into the 1hit range. Ability lock also turns off Metagross, Bulu, and Garde when they can only attach one energy from hand now.

As for Greninja, 2 Breaks set up one rounds a Gardevoir. A Garde needs 6 energy attached to return KO then. Metagross could survive and max potion, but if that's the case Greninjanwill be using Shadow Stitching to shut down Geotech. Even if another metagross is set up, it can't even return KO unless there is Kukui as well. Take a look at a lot of the articles pros are putting out as well. Quite a few of them see Greninja as one of the nest decks in the current meta and continuing past rotation.
 
Alolan Ninetales: People can counter baby Alolan Ninetales, but I think you both forget that Alolan Ninetales is a really good deck even without it. Pure Alolan Ninetales has done very well this season, and it is a very good deck. Now you add in baby Alolan Ninetales as a plus, and you have yourself a really good deck with a lot of versatility. I'm not sure though wether I will keep it in tier 1.

Volcanion EX: I agree this deck is very good, but there are 3 water decks which will see play in the new format. Alolan Ninetales GX is good, and Ozzie is practically preaching Greninja BREAK is an insane deck. So, you are looking at 1 very good water deck(Alolan Ninetales), 1 pretty good water deck(Greninja BREAK), and 1 okay water deck(Lapras GX). Volcanion decks do tech in one Ho Oh GX, but it can get OHKO by 2 decks, and Greninja BREAK if it can find a energy to Giant Water Shuriken or a Choice Band. I will consider putting this deck into tier 1 because it counters Metagross GX and Tapu Bulu GX/Vikavolt.

Drampa GX/Garbodor: Po Town is a good enough replacement to put this deck in tier 1.

Metagross GX: I will put this deck into tier 1 because it counter Alolan Ninetales GX and Gardevoir GX. Plus it is a good deck anyways.

Tapu Bulu/Vikavolt: I think this is a great deck, but it only counters Greninja BREAK, and gets countered by Volcanion EX. I will keep it in tier 2 for now.

Sylveon GX: This deck only becomes good post rotation because Vs Seeker goes out of format. For now I will keep it in tier 2. Did you not notice this is post rotation TheDude lol. There are no results to base it off of. This is basically all speculation.

Greninja BREAK: This is too slow to beat a lot of top tier decks. I'm not gonna say this for others, but my Metagross GX list runs Magearna EX which counters Shadow Stitch, and other Metagross decks may follow if Greninja is good post rotation.

Zoroak BREAK & Darkrai EX: I don't know much about these deck, but I will take your word that they are good and put them in tier 2.
 
I want to add Necrozma GX/Metagross GX into the discussion, either completely replacing the pure Metagross GX deck in the tier list or as being a separate deck to consider. I personally think that the addition of Necrozma GX makes Metagross GX a much better deck with huge synergy off of Geotech System and a GX attack that's actually worth using.

Necrozma GX attack + Espeon EX devolve is an absolutely lethal combo against Gardevoir GX and Greninja BREAK, and Necrozma GX is completely immune to Drampa GX with its ability, and Metagross GX will practically always be a near auto win against Alolan Ninetales GX - Metang counters the baby Alolan Ninetales, and Metagross GX slaughters Alolan Ninetales GX. The single evolution chain counters the entire deck.

Its only weakness is Volcanion EX/Ho-Oh GX, but that will presumably always be a weakness of the deck.
 
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Duo said:
I want to add Necrozma GX/Metagross GX into the discussion, either completely replacing the pure Metagross GX deck in the tier list or as being a separate deck to consider. I personally think that the addition of Necrozma GX makes Metagross GX a much better deck with huge synergy off of Geotech System and a GX attack that's actually worth using.

Necrozma GX attack + Espeon EX devolve is an absolutely lethal combo against Gardevoir GX and Greninja BREAK, and Necrozma GX is completely immune to Drampa GX with its ability, and Metagross GX will practically always be a near auto win against Alolan Ninetales GX - Metang counters the baby Alolan Ninetales, and Metagross GX slaughters Alolan Ninetales GX. The single evolution chain counters the entire deck.

Its only weakness is Volcanion EX/Ho-Oh GX, but that will presumably always be a weakness of the deck.
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Necrozma's GX attack only applies to EX and GX Pokémon. One more reason Greninja's lack of running GX Pokémon is a huge plus!
 
Duo said:
You're right. I typed that without really thinking. Thanks for catching it.
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Not to mention Necrozma GX is a worse way to play the deck. It gives Garbodor a way to beat the deck, and relies on having three Metagross out at all times. At least with pure metagross, you can use Guzma to reset the attack restriction without having to have all your Metagross on board. That being said, i do think having a 1-of Necrozma is good in the deck, but the Necro-based version of the deck isn't as good.
Adi said:
Alolan Ninetales: People can counter baby Alolan Ninetales, but I think you both forget that Alolan Ninetales is a really good deck even without it. Pure Alolan Ninetales has done very well this season, and it is a very good deck. Now you add in baby Alolan Ninetales as a plus, and you have yourself a really good deck with a lot of versatility. I'm not sure though wether I will keep it in tier 1.

Volcanion EX: I agree this deck is very good, but there are 3 water decks which will see play in the new format. Alolan Ninetales GX is good, and Ozzie is practically preaching Greninja BREAK is an insane deck. So, you are looking at 1 very good water deck(Alolan Ninetales), 1 pretty good water deck(Greninja BREAK), and 1 okay water deck(Lapras GX). Volcanion decks do tech in one Ho Oh GX, but it can get OHKO by 2 decks, and Greninja BREAK if it can find a energy to Giant Water Shuriken or a Choice Band. I will consider putting this deck into tier 1 because it counters Metagross GX and Tapu Bulu GX/Vikavolt.

Drampa GX/Garbodor: Po Town is a good enough replacement to put this deck in tier 1.

Metagross GX: I will put this deck into tier 1 because it counter Alolan Ninetales GX and Gardevoir GX. Plus it is a good deck anyways.

Tapu Bulu/Vikavolt: I think this is a great deck, but it only counters Greninja BREAK, and gets countered by Volcanion EX. I will keep it in tier 2 for now.

Sylveon GX: This deck only becomes good post rotation because Vs Seeker goes out of format. For now I will keep it in tier 2. Did you not notice this is post rotation TheDude lol. There are no results to base it off of. This is basically all speculation.

Greninja BREAK: This is too slow to beat a lot of top tier decks. I'm not gonna say this for others, but my Metagross GX list runs Magearna EX which counters Shadow Stitch, and other Metagross decks may follow if Greninja is good post rotation.

Zoroak BREAK & Darkrai EX: I don't know much about these deck, but I will take your word that they are good and put them in tier 2.
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Alolan Nintails loses more than it gains next format, so my thoughts are still that it will drop in play. I don't see it being past Tier 2.

Fire is still a Tier 1 deck NOW with all three of those mentioned decks in the format, and it has better/easier ways to deal with them. Not to mention it loses nothing because of rotation.

How does Fire counter Vika/Bulu?

Sylveon is a bad deck. Yes, this is post rotation theory, but the problem with that logic is that Sylveon GX sucks. Do people lose VS seeker? Yes. Do people gain Tapu-Lele? Yes. Does Sylveon lose Hex Maniac? Yes. Does Sylveon have a way to deal with Metagross, Gardevoir, Fire, and Garbodor? No. The deck doesn't gain any advantage going into next format, so saying it's a Tier 2 deck because VS Seeker is gone is completely baseless. The reason I brought up results from the current format, is because it's a comparison to how things will play out next format. Remember, people thought the deck was going to be Tier 1 when it came out, and it did absolutely nothing.

Greninja is not too slow to beat top tier decks. It still has a good Gardevoir match-up, and it will still be a good Tier 2 deck.
 
I am just getting back into the TCG and am putting together a Golisopod/Zoroark variant.
Can someone explain to me what the weakness to this deck is aside from it being weak to volcanion?
It seems really consistent to only have to worry about a single energy to attack with golisopod and it doesnt even get walled by ninetails because zoroark is a more than capable attacker.
I guess there is no way of knowing until more testing is done but to me, golisopod is looking promising..
 
I did some theory and a bit of proxy playtesting and you're right, TheDude123. Necrozma GX weakens the build. It gives a lot of decks an easy, squishy target to OHKO for 2 prizes, and having to split between steel & psychic energy destabilizes consistency. It also means you aren't Max Potioning very often to just tank everything and come back with the same power next turn.

I believe it's an old build...but I would even say Genesect EX is better simply for the full steel energy pool.

I am also of the opinion that Alolan Ninetales GX is a Tier 2, or the very bottom of Tier 1. My current win/loss ratio against my own Gardevoir GX deck (playing against myself) is 5 Gardevoir GX, 1 Alolan Ninetales GX. Oranguru has single-handedly gotten over 2 Alolan Ninetales BUS and it's not hard at all with the energy acceleration Gardevoir GX has to offer. The games have been close (1-2 prize difference), but Gardevoir GX always has a way to close out whereas Alolan Ninetales GX runs out of steam. The only time Alolan Ninetales GX won was when Gardy GX didn't open Diancie and Lele/Brigette. If both decks get an optimal start, Gardevoir GX should win almost all the time. I will also say that I think Alolan Ninetales GX has a terrible time against Greninja BREAK. You would almost rather stick 4 to 6 energy onto a Lele to swing for 1 prizes per turn than even use Alolan Ninetales GX in that match up. Discarding 2 from Blizzard Edge for 1 prize OHKOs drains you incredibly fast (and you can't even OHKO BREAK without Kukui), and Ice Blading is just too slow. I've only played against Greninja BREAK twice, but both times I didn't stand a chance. I will say though, I was playing against pre-rotation Greninja BREAK with a Post Rotation Alolan Ninetales GX deck.

That being said, I'm not a perfect player, and battling yourself doesn't produce the same results as battling someone else, so please do take this with a grain of salt.
 
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GymLdrJesse said:
I am just getting back into the TCG and am putting together a Golisopod/Zoroark variant.
Can someone explain to me what the weakness to this deck is aside from it being weak to volcanion?
It seems really consistent to only have to worry about a single energy to attack with golisopod and it doesnt even get walled by ninetails because zoroark is a more than capable attacker.
I guess there is no way of knowing until more testing is done but to me, golisopod is looking promising..
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It's main problem is Mid-late game. It's so early game focused, that once you run out of Guzman and other switch enablers, you have almost no damage. Zoroark is easily countered by just not filling up the bench. Its a good Tier 2 deck, but it lacks a grind game.
 
Duo said:
I did some theory and a bit of proxy playtesting and you're right, TheDude123. Necrozma GX weakens the build. It gives a lot of decks an easy, squishy target to OHKO for 2 prizes, and having to split between steel & psychic energy destabilizes consistency. It also means you aren't Max Potioning very often to just tank everything and come back with the same power next turn.

I believe it's an old build...but I would even say Genesect EX is better simply for the full steel energy pool.

I am also of the opinion that Alolan Ninetales GX is a Tier 2, or the very bottom of Tier 1. My current win/loss ratio against my own Gardevoir GX deck (playing against myself) is 5 Gardevoir GX, 1 Alolan Ninetales GX. Oranguru has single-handedly gotten over 2 Alolan Ninetales BUS and it's not hard at all with the energy acceleration Gardevoir GX has to offer. The games have been close (1-2 prize difference), but Gardevoir GX always has a way to close out whereas Alolan Ninetales GX runs out of steam. The only time Alolan Ninetales GX won was when Gardy GX didn't open Diancie and Lele/Brigette. If both decks get an optimal start, Gardevoir GX should win almost all the time. I will also say that I think Alolan Ninetales GX has a terrible time against Greninja BREAK. You would almost rather stick 4 to 6 energy onto a Lele to swing for 1 prizes per turn than even use Alolan Ninetales GX in that match up. Discarding 2 from Blizzard Edge for 1 prize OHKOs drains you incredibly fast, and Ice Blading is just too slow. I've only played against Greninja BREAK twice, but both times I didn't stand a chance. I will say though, I was playing against pre-rotation Greninja BREAK with a Post Rotation Alolan Ninetales GX deck.

That being said, I'm not a perfect player, and battling yourself doesn't produce the same results as battling someone else, so please do take this with a grain of salt.
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I don't think Metagross should be paired with anything. I was saying for months before the card came out that It should just but Metagross/Lele, and everyone said that wouldn't work because of the attack restriction. So everyone wanted to put Scizor, Genesect, even Solgaleo into the deck, but none of them worked because they lacked damage. Pure Metagross with 2 Lele and 1 Necrozma is the best way to play the deck. You still want Necro for the GX attack (literally only for the GX attack), but you can't focus the deck around a different attack. It needs too many moving pieces for that. Vika-Bulu can do it because it lacks quantity of moving pieces. Unless we get an INSANE Metal attacker soon, Pure Metagross is the best play.
 
TheDude133 said:
It's main problem is Mid-late game. It's so early game focused, that once you run out of Guzman and other switch enablers, you have almost no damage. Zoroark is easily countered by just not filling up the bench. Its a good Tier 2 deck, but it lacks a grind game.
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Ah I see.
So the deck wants to put pressure on early-mid. But I feel like even if you cant consistently switch, golisopod gx' second attack doing a solid base 100 damage isnt bad (not to mention the damage reduction)
But if I am facing another tier 2/1 deck it might just lose out late game.
Still really hyped to play it since it doesnt seem to be immensely popular.
 
TheDude133 said:
I don't think Metagross should be paired with anything. I was saying for months before the card came out that It should just but Metagross/Lele, and everyone said that wouldn't work because of the attack restriction. So everyone wanted to put Scizor, Genesect, even Solgaleo into the deck, but none of them worked because they lacked damage. Pure Metagross with 2 Lele and 1 Necrozma is the best way to play the deck. You still want Necro for the GX attack (literally only for the GX attack), but you can't focus the deck around a different attack. It needs too many moving pieces for that. Vika-Bulu can do it because it lacks quantity of moving pieces. Unless we get an INSANE Metal attacker soon, Pure Metagross is the best play.
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Right. I said that I think Genesect EX is potentially better than Necrozma GX as an attacker but I'm not considering him as an attacker at all in Metagross GX.

I've studied several builds and pure Metagross GX with tech Necrozma as opposed to attacker Necrozma as you said is definitely the best build possible, in my opinion. Guzma & Float Stone/Switch (whichever you prefer, or perhaps 2 of both) works around its attack restriction just fine. Or just retreat and Geotech all the energy back on. Why not.
 
GymLdrJesse said:
Ah I see.
So the deck wants to put pressure on early-mid. But I feel like even if you cant consistently switch, golisopod gx' second attack doing a solid base 100 damage isnt bad (not to mention the damage reduction)
But if I am facing another tier 2/1 deck it might just lose out late game.
Still really hyped to play it since it doesnt seem to be immensely popular.
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The problem with doing less than 180 damage late game is that everything else can do 180+ late game. Look at Metagross for example. People are starting to play Dhelmise at 1 and Kukui just to hit 210 in one turn. That OHKO's Golisopod. However Golisopod has no way to OHKO Metagross back. So you're losing the trade, and its worse if they Max Potion the damage. Gardevoir is a time bomb playing against you. If you can't win before you run out of switch enablers, then the energy for OHKO with a Banded Gard goes from 5 to 3, which is much more manageable to do with Gardevoir. Garbodor is another ticking time bomb, the later it goes, the closer you are to OHKO range. Basically if you don't win the game in 4-5 turns, you lose.
 
Duo said:
Right. I said that I think Genesect EX is potentially better than Necrozma GX as an attacker but I'm not considering him as an attacker at all in Metagross GX.

I've studied several builds and pure Metagross GX with tech Necrozma as opposed to attacker Necrozma as you said is definitely the best build possible, in my opinion. Guzma & Float Stone/Switch (whichever you prefer, or perhaps 2 of both) works around its attack restriction just fine. Or just retreat and Geotech all the energy back on. Why not.
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Here's the list I've been testing well with. Keep in mind its Post Rotation.

4-1-4 Metagross GX
2 Tapu-Lele GX
2 Alolan Vulpix
1 Necrozma GX
1 Dhelmise

4 Sycamore
4 N
3 Guzma
2 Kukui
1 Bridgette
1 Skyla

4 Rare Candy
4 Ultra Ball
4 Choice Band
4 Max Potion
1 Field Blower
1 Rescue Stretcher

8 Metal Energy
4 Psychic Energy

Guzma helped this deck so much by resetting the attack restriction without retreating. You can easily cut cards here and there for techs like Cobalion to deal with Mini Alolan Ninetails, Magearna for Espeon EX, even an Oranguru if you wanted late game recovery with Instruct.
 
This is my Metagross GX deck for post rotation. I have considered a Metagross GX/Necrozma GX, and posted that on the deck garage. I think it will be more clunky though, and not work as well.

Pokemon: 17

4 Beldum
3 Metang
4 Metagross GX
2 Alolan Vulpix
2 Tapu Lele GX
1 Necrozma GX
1 Magearna EX

Trainers: 31

Items
4 Ultra Ball
4 Rare Candy
4 Choice Band
3 Max Potion
1 Rescue Stretcher
2 Field Blower

Supporter
4 Professor Sycamore
4 N
1 Bridgette
2 Guzma
1 Skyla
1 Professor Kukui

Energy: 12

8 Metal Energy
4 Psychic Energy

This is the list I will be using for post rotation, so I still have some time to deck test the list a bit more. I hope this helps.
 
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The Magearna EX tech is very interesting.

Is Magearna EX capable of blocking Beacon, Magical Ribbon, and/or Sparkling Wish? If I'm not mistaken, those are effects that apply the player using them and not to the active Pokemon it's "attacking." Is your only interest in running Magearna EX to potentially stop Shadow Stitching?
 
I am of the same opinion, but I noticed that Adi had created a thread asking specifically about Shadow Stitching ruling in regards to Magearna EX, so I assumed that was the primary reason it was considered.
 
21times said:
Greninja may be a dead end because of Promo Giratina. You might be able to counter it with Alolan Muk but then you can't run the pure Greninja TF build which is the best version of Greninja.
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Greninja can shadow stitch to shut giratina down
 
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