It's honestly kind of sad to see them defend AI-generated art this much since they're a well-known (and AFAIK well-respected) mod on the PokéGym’s forums since well before I started playing (early BLW era).
TPCi Disqualifies Entries from 2024’s Pokemon TCG Illustrator Contest!
- Thread starter Water Pokémon Master
- Start date
Its kind of sad to see people not responding to my actual arguments.
What is your argument?
Your argument boils down to "a bad actor did a thing" and my counter was the use of AI (something that has pretty much always existed in modern media) was no more unethical than the use of any other new technology or currently used technology.
So, not even a real argument? You think its fine to "steal" a decklist for a tournament and then win with a list you just plagiarized?
And I think its ABSOLUTELY crucial when it come to a tournament that the person who lovingly crafted their deck, pour their heart and soul, blood, sweat and tear into a 60 card deck list, all the testing and understanding of the card pool and meta when making deck and tech choices test their skill against another player who did the same but the only people doing well are the people who wait for a winning list and just steal it.
If this is fine to do, then a person who commission a piece should also be able to enter it in a contest. They paid for it, so why not. Is this a bad faith argument? I dont know. You seem to think stealing a deck list is fine to win a tournament. @LightYearLiam
You're being so obtuse I know it's probably a waste to reply, but here goes: it has NEVER been a requirement in Pokemon tournaments to build your own deck and it has ALWAYS been a requirement in art contests to make your own art. Hope this helps.
Yes it is. The rules state to build a deck of 60 cards. The art contest state to submit your artwork. There are no rules that say it cant be generated.
Illustration contest rules:
Source: https://www.ptcgic-cr.com/2024/en/agreement/
We both know it's not actually a rule that decks in Pokemon tournaments have to be original. Feel free to try to prove me wrong.
I'm sure your response will be that using an AI art generator is just the same as any other tool, but this is just a pure false equivalency. Creating an image personally using a drawing program in a way that is highly reminiscent of a digital version of drawing or painting with traditional tools is in no way equivalent to typing a prompt into a program. Prompting is far more equivalent to commissioning an artist, and no one would be allowed to enter a piece of art they commissioned but did not create themselves into a contest.
Nice job on noticing that bit in the agreement, that kind of puts a spanner in his argument since it follows the same reasoning behind the US’s copyright office ruling that AI-generated works aren’t copyrightable.
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I am not surprised to see you are just as much of a contrarian shitter now as you were years ago, c_p, but I am disappointed.
Guys, remember, when it comes to bait posts, the only winning move is not to play.
Guys, remember, when it comes to bait posts, the only winning move is not to play.
It was created by them. You dont know what the method to make it was.
@crystal_pidgeot
AI in art isn’t necessarily good or bad, I can tell your experience with AI is a positive one. However, this disqualification makes sense and I think you’re making somewhat odd comparisons. Still images generated by AI do mostly use assets that aren’t from the person using AI. For a contest like this it’s important that you (and only you) made the art, because the whole concept of a contest like this is that you put in an effort to win something. Sure, AI can be used to aid with coloring, structures, light etc, but that isn’t the case here, far from it.
There are two sides of AI generated art, those who use it to enhance their art and those who use it to quickly gain profit or fame. If you know humankind, you know that the latter is all but uncommon. You can save time from long animations with AI, and that’s fine. You’re not hurting other artists by generating a few extra frames. However, AI definitely brings risks to other parts of the industry. Being an artist is already one of the hardest professions there is to make a living from, so let's treat this subject with care.
Cars and art are completely different subjects, I’m not even going to try to make a comparison here. It saddens me that artists and animators are treated poorly in the industry, but I doubt this technology is going to help ‘’millions’’. Companies/executives who let their employees use AI will likely just expect more results in a shorter time-span. Besides, artists who make their art with their hands and (regular) digital tools will be ignored even more than they already are.
Having said that, AI can be amazing, helpful and we would be fools to ignore its advantages. But let people be weary, because plagiarism and greed are already a big part of the AI generated industry. When there’s new technology you need regulations, because there are always those looking for ways to make a profit, and not always in ethical ways.
Should only people with talent be allowed to make art? No, ofcourse not, but we should protect and appreciate talent and unique art made by our fellow human beings. That is what is being done here and I understand people are frustrated you don’t see this.
AI in art isn’t necessarily good or bad, I can tell your experience with AI is a positive one. However, this disqualification makes sense and I think you’re making somewhat odd comparisons. Still images generated by AI do mostly use assets that aren’t from the person using AI. For a contest like this it’s important that you (and only you) made the art, because the whole concept of a contest like this is that you put in an effort to win something. Sure, AI can be used to aid with coloring, structures, light etc, but that isn’t the case here, far from it.
There are two sides of AI generated art, those who use it to enhance their art and those who use it to quickly gain profit or fame. If you know humankind, you know that the latter is all but uncommon. You can save time from long animations with AI, and that’s fine. You’re not hurting other artists by generating a few extra frames. However, AI definitely brings risks to other parts of the industry. Being an artist is already one of the hardest professions there is to make a living from, so let's treat this subject with care.
Cars and art are completely different subjects, I’m not even going to try to make a comparison here. It saddens me that artists and animators are treated poorly in the industry, but I doubt this technology is going to help ‘’millions’’. Companies/executives who let their employees use AI will likely just expect more results in a shorter time-span. Besides, artists who make their art with their hands and (regular) digital tools will be ignored even more than they already are.
Having said that, AI can be amazing, helpful and we would be fools to ignore its advantages. But let people be weary, because plagiarism and greed are already a big part of the AI generated industry. When there’s new technology you need regulations, because there are always those looking for ways to make a profit, and not always in ethical ways.
Should only people with talent be allowed to make art? No, ofcourse not, but we should protect and appreciate talent and unique art made by our fellow human beings. That is what is being done here and I understand people are frustrated you don’t see this.
@Robin Aisaga Thank you for the discourse. I wish others here could engage with critical though.
I can draw Pidgeot effortlessly. Do you think I woke up one morning to do that? It took years of reference and bird study to have a useful style to draw on. The ai does this except it doesnt take it years to remember how to. Gen ai is literally the Avatar State for artist. We all contribute to it like we all contribute to any other work or advancement in tech. If one can copy a decklist and win an event, then one can click a button, do similar and win a contest. The point is to be the best using what available tools you believe will get you the win. There are metas for a reason. Artist have a new meta. Adapt or get left behind. You also dont know the method of creation for the art.
Since no one answered it before, what about all the bad art that didnt make it? Why dont those artist deserve to have their art on a card? Why only take the best of what digital artist can make? How is this fair for artist without computers?
Comic artist, anime animators and related can recover a lot of time with their tight work schedules. I work 12 hours for amazon, on my off days, Im too tired to draw. Im trying to learn Blender, which takes time, play video games or even just chill so gen ai lets me recover time to do other things. I want to animate again. I miss doing it but I dont have time to do it but get told I cant use ai because it supports theft? Really? The existance of the internet supports theft, should we get rid of it? Why tell other people how they are suppose to spend their lives? bad actors will be bad actors, who would have thought!
Just like the car allowed many others to start busniesses they otherwise wouldn't have, ai is allowing others to do the same. You cant overlook all the good giving people time freedom will have. People educating themselves with computers will be a complete win for our species. Yes we need to be careful with any new technology. we ABSOLUTELY need a UBI of some sort now but fighting against this tech with no valid points is just spreading disinformation and that should always be avoided. I dont care with giant corporations do. We cant do anything about that. All we can do is do what WE are going to do and we should be using this tech to improve the world and redefine what work means. If I can train a model to draw as I do, then I'm going to do that. If I want to train a model to draw as I do but in the style of another, I'm going to do that. We now get to experience art styles we would need to dump years into learning. I dont know if you noticed, but humans dont live that long and life expectancy is falling. If people want to save time, then let them.
This tech finally caught up to their needs and now they can tell their stories. I'm both honored and humbled to know that my works will be used to allow those less fortunate than I to show the world what they can do using anything I made to make their art just like I have trained off the works of those before me and current. Gen ai is just the next evolution of digital art and something better will replace it. Would you argue against the creation of the Holo Deck replacing art because art evolved from static images to full immersive experience? Would you really pass up the experiences of such tech? Physical draw art will always exist, it just wont be used to make a living and will exist in hobby like its suppose to be. Art has always been about the free expression of ones self, no matter the medium used. It seems like every other artist here forgot that.
I appreciate you resopnding thoughtfully. Always remember to be humble and think about those of our species who could benefit for advances in tech.
This same thing can be said about net decking. I dont make odd comparisons, I make useful ones to show fault in logic. Why is it that I build all decks from scratch, test every card against every matchup and look for the best interaction, with lots of though and time going into testing to make my list when everyone else just copies the winning deck and show up to events? Why is it okay for a large group of people to completely bypass the entire step of building, theory crafting and testing all options for large events but not allow the same thing for art? We all train on the assets of other. I have never drawn anything without reference and when I no longer need it, its because my brain can make it.
I can draw Pidgeot effortlessly. Do you think I woke up one morning to do that? It took years of reference and bird study to have a useful style to draw on. The ai does this except it doesnt take it years to remember how to. Gen ai is literally the Avatar State for artist. We all contribute to it like we all contribute to any other work or advancement in tech. If one can copy a decklist and win an event, then one can click a button, do similar and win a contest. The point is to be the best using what available tools you believe will get you the win. There are metas for a reason. Artist have a new meta. Adapt or get left behind. You also dont know the method of creation for the art.
Since no one answered it before, what about all the bad art that didnt make it? Why dont those artist deserve to have their art on a card? Why only take the best of what digital artist can make? How is this fair for artist without computers?
I dont care how its used. your argument comes down to bad actors being bad actors. Name one technology where there arent bad actors? They will always exist. Cars enable to rob banks. It got so bad that cops had to keep with with faster and faster cars. that doesnt mean get rid of all cars. Gen ai lets us same time. We should be striving towards time freedom. What I dont get is why people feel like they need to tell others how they should spend their time on Earth. Drawing sucks. Animating sucks. It takes so much time! Everyone uses time differently and telling a person they cant use technology to save time, the one thing advances in tech is designed to do to gain more time and use it to make money, then why even innovate? We as a species stand to gain a lot from this tech and a small few want it dead because they cant get furry commissions anymore.
Comic artist, anime animators and related can recover a lot of time with their tight work schedules. I work 12 hours for amazon, on my off days, Im too tired to draw. Im trying to learn Blender, which takes time, play video games or even just chill so gen ai lets me recover time to do other things. I want to animate again. I miss doing it but I dont have time to do it but get told I cant use ai because it supports theft? Really? The existance of the internet supports theft, should we get rid of it? Why tell other people how they are suppose to spend their lives? bad actors will be bad actors, who would have thought!
They are related. I know you have no invested interest because of your short time in existance but do you know how insane the horse industry was! Every person needed to have a horse. Horses are slow, can get sick and die and need to be replaced, which isnt easy. Replacing a horse means finding a breeder, training it, feeding it every step of the way until it gets to a point where it can be usable. Sometimes you needed multiple horsed replaced. They do get old afterall and stop working. Imagine the world today if we didnt have cars. What would it look like? Would each home need a barn? How would trade look? Its a good thing we have cars right! We can go further, much faster! We dont need to raise cars or trucks. Those things are like having access to hundreds of horses. my F150 is pretty much 300 horses in one thing! Thats a pretty good advancement in technology, right?
Just like the car allowed many others to start busniesses they otherwise wouldn't have, ai is allowing others to do the same. You cant overlook all the good giving people time freedom will have. People educating themselves with computers will be a complete win for our species. Yes we need to be careful with any new technology. we ABSOLUTELY need a UBI of some sort now but fighting against this tech with no valid points is just spreading disinformation and that should always be avoided. I dont care with giant corporations do. We cant do anything about that. All we can do is do what WE are going to do and we should be using this tech to improve the world and redefine what work means. If I can train a model to draw as I do, then I'm going to do that. If I want to train a model to draw as I do but in the style of another, I'm going to do that. We now get to experience art styles we would need to dump years into learning. I dont know if you noticed, but humans dont live that long and life expectancy is falling. If people want to save time, then let them.
Plagiarism and greed is apart of any industry. Did you forget White House Down and Oylpus Has Fallen exist? Look at all the cars? They all copied Ford. What about the wheel? Computers? Tvs? We all steal from each other. Thats fine. Its called competition. Remember, you all plagiarize deck list when you copied what won. You didnt make that list, someone else did. I'd not use this as an argument again as it will be done in bad faith.
At least five people will disagree with you here. Humans making art was never a standard in concidering what art is. We humans can appreciate the abstract nature of art since we reason our way around the world differently than another other non-human animal but humans arent the only things capible of making such abstract things. Many birds have this ability to construct, which is part of why I love them so much. Art is one of my favorite things in the world. I love what we can do but I dont have this standard that it be made by human hands. There are many people who cant use their hands or have the time to do it so why exclude these people, many of which are handicap, from exploring their creative side?
This tech finally caught up to their needs and now they can tell their stories. I'm both honored and humbled to know that my works will be used to allow those less fortunate than I to show the world what they can do using anything I made to make their art just like I have trained off the works of those before me and current. Gen ai is just the next evolution of digital art and something better will replace it. Would you argue against the creation of the Holo Deck replacing art because art evolved from static images to full immersive experience? Would you really pass up the experiences of such tech? Physical draw art will always exist, it just wont be used to make a living and will exist in hobby like its suppose to be. Art has always been about the free expression of ones self, no matter the medium used. It seems like every other artist here forgot that.
I appreciate you resopnding thoughtfully. Always remember to be humble and think about those of our species who could benefit for advances in tech.
@crystal_pidgeot The TCG is more about choosing the right deck and playing it right. There's only so many viable decks in each standard format, It's normal for players in the TCG to have same or near identical decklists. Players taking inspiration from other decks is a non-issue, those who primarily copy decks are usually a step behind anyways since they don't know the deck inside and out. I will commend players who came up with an original deck idea. But the TCG, unlike an art contest, isn't really about originality.
I still don't like the car comparison... but measures were taken against those robbers, and measures were taken against the contestants who submitted multiple AI arts in order to win. They weren't honest about using AI, they were disqualified for a good reason. I'm all for saving time, and we agree new and useful technology shouldn't be halted because some people abuse it. I would be happy if more people could express themselves with art using AI. But we should be careful it doesn't come at the cost of more classic art forms when it doesn't have to.
We have to look at the positives and negatives. Shouting ''AI generated art is all plagiarism'' isn't going to help, but ignoring the AI abuse is no option. I'm happy something was done here. Anyway, thanks for your reply, I do appreciate that you want art to be available to everyone, but we shouldn't become careless around plagiarism. There's still a huge difference between taking inspiration and stealing something. For now that's all I really have to say.
I still don't like the car comparison... but measures were taken against those robbers, and measures were taken against the contestants who submitted multiple AI arts in order to win. They weren't honest about using AI, they were disqualified for a good reason. I'm all for saving time, and we agree new and useful technology shouldn't be halted because some people abuse it. I would be happy if more people could express themselves with art using AI. But we should be careful it doesn't come at the cost of more classic art forms when it doesn't have to.
We have to look at the positives and negatives. Shouting ''AI generated art is all plagiarism'' isn't going to help, but ignoring the AI abuse is no option. I'm happy something was done here. Anyway, thanks for your reply, I do appreciate that you want art to be available to everyone, but we shouldn't become careless around plagiarism. There's still a huge difference between taking inspiration and stealing something. For now that's all I really have to say.
@Robin Aisaga
Its a contest. Those with the most skill should win. Deck building is a skill. Testing is a skill. Understanding the cards and how they interact is a skill. Your skill against another. If you just copy a winning decklist, you are side stepping a major skill. With how easy Pokemon is, you arent even encouraged to do this and it makes the issue worse. No deck played by most players look that much different. Every list is the same almost card for card. People do this because it saves time. Why reinvent the wheel? Using gen AI is the same. It saves time, which is the point of using resources available to you so I ask, if you cant ever tell when something is ai, then why not ban digital art altogether? All digital software and hardware used make the artist look better than what they actually are.
Exactly, cops had to keep up, not simply ban aftermarket performance parts because you cant just tell the masses they cant have a thing because of bad actors without a very good reason. Its TPC job to check for bad actors. You dont need to be honest about using ai. We dont require this anywhere else. Its simply a tool and expecting people to do the "papers please" thing to justify themselves is very bigoted. I agree we need to be careful but the only people complaining about this are people looking to protect their commissions the same way NIMBYs act about their property. When you realize this is all it ever was, the story starts to make sense. Art will always be made, it just dies as a job, which is fine. Lots of things died when new tech come out, like the horse industry. Many more people will be able to tell stories. Art has always been about expressing oneself no matter the medium.
If you look back at my other replies, that was all anyone was doing and not engaging with my post. I also never ignored the abuse it can cause. I stated many times that bad actors will be bad actors and this is true for any technology, which is why I said cars but you didnt like the comparison. What about the internet? Is it better to ban the internet because of all the abuse it causes? The internet is much more of a problem. You have to remember, there is a very fine line between inspiration and stealing. Remember Palworld and what Pokemon fans thought of that.