Oh jeez. I didn't see the opponent part. Nevermind, Friend Ball is bad.
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Alt. Format Ultra Necrozma GX for Post Rotation (WIP)
- Thread starter Duo
- Start date
Decklist updates:
-1 Dusk Mane Necrozma Promo
-1 Lunala Prism Star
-1 Field Blower
-1 Rescue Stretcher
+1 Necrozma GX
+1 Tapu Lele (SM45, the Psychic one with Magical Swap)
+1 Altar of the Moone
+1 Energy Recycler
Explanations
Dusk Mane Necrozma Promo - This strategy while amazing against Fairy is ONLY good against Fairy. That's not quite good enough.
Lunala Prism Star - Lunala Prism Star only accesses your Psychic energy pool. If you have no steel in play, this card is useless. At the same time, because the energy acceleration is placed onto an attack that would generally be used mid to late game when your opponent has a set up as well, odds are the Pokemon that you stack your energy onto will get Guzma'd and KO'd.
Field Blower - Why play this when you can just run 4 Altar of Moones for your own consistency AND tango with stadium wars?
Rescue Stretcher - Considering the deck runs 8 cards to hard search the Pokemon you need, I really don't feel like you should ever have to access your discard pile to see the Pokemon you need. Also, since this deck is primarily basic GX oriented, you probably won't even have the prize pool left to dig out more of those GXs anyway. Your discard targets should primarily be extra energy when using Ultra Ball and Mysterious Treasure.
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Necrozma GX - This plus Ultra Necrozma GX gives you access to the best in-theme AoE damage you can have access to in this deck. The max potential of Ultra Necrozma GX is 360 damage, and the max potential of Necrozma GX is 600 damage, though realistically speaking, it's more like 300 damage and 400 damage, respectively. This combos nicely with...
Tapu Lele (SM45) - Coming out in the SM7 blisters, this is the Tapu Lele with Magical Swap we've all been wanting for forever. When you combine the AoE power of the Necrozma GXs with Magical Swap, you can suddenly start taking multiple KOs in one turn against ANY deck as opposed to just covering Fairy types. Couple this AoE strategy with the explosive single target damage of both Necrozma GXs as well and you have yourself a lot of damage coverage.
Altar of the Moone - Running a 4th copy helps with stadium wars and gives you more consistency on your retreats. Just keep a Psychic energy on a Dusk Mane Necrozma GX and you have full mobility with Altar of the Moone in play.
Energy Recycler - This allows you to go crazy with Ultra Ball/Mysterious Treasure to discard energy cards and not be afraid of having no energy in deck for the early/mid game when you meet the prize requirements to play Beast Ring. It allows you to make sure you have the right ratio of Metal & Psychic in deck whenever you need it as well. Steven's Decision allows you to see this card whenever you need it, (use him to search out 2 Beast Rings and 1 Energy Recycler if you need it. Guaranteed energy pool on play.)
-1 Dusk Mane Necrozma Promo
-1 Lunala Prism Star
-1 Field Blower
-1 Rescue Stretcher
+1 Necrozma GX
+1 Tapu Lele (SM45, the Psychic one with Magical Swap)
+1 Altar of the Moone
+1 Energy Recycler
Explanations
Dusk Mane Necrozma Promo - This strategy while amazing against Fairy is ONLY good against Fairy. That's not quite good enough.
Lunala Prism Star - Lunala Prism Star only accesses your Psychic energy pool. If you have no steel in play, this card is useless. At the same time, because the energy acceleration is placed onto an attack that would generally be used mid to late game when your opponent has a set up as well, odds are the Pokemon that you stack your energy onto will get Guzma'd and KO'd.
Field Blower - Why play this when you can just run 4 Altar of Moones for your own consistency AND tango with stadium wars?
Rescue Stretcher - Considering the deck runs 8 cards to hard search the Pokemon you need, I really don't feel like you should ever have to access your discard pile to see the Pokemon you need. Also, since this deck is primarily basic GX oriented, you probably won't even have the prize pool left to dig out more of those GXs anyway. Your discard targets should primarily be extra energy when using Ultra Ball and Mysterious Treasure.
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Necrozma GX - This plus Ultra Necrozma GX gives you access to the best in-theme AoE damage you can have access to in this deck. The max potential of Ultra Necrozma GX is 360 damage, and the max potential of Necrozma GX is 600 damage, though realistically speaking, it's more like 300 damage and 400 damage, respectively. This combos nicely with...
Tapu Lele (SM45) - Coming out in the SM7 blisters, this is the Tapu Lele with Magical Swap we've all been wanting for forever. When you combine the AoE power of the Necrozma GXs with Magical Swap, you can suddenly start taking multiple KOs in one turn against ANY deck as opposed to just covering Fairy types. Couple this AoE strategy with the explosive single target damage of both Necrozma GXs as well and you have yourself a lot of damage coverage.
Altar of the Moone - Running a 4th copy helps with stadium wars and gives you more consistency on your retreats. Just keep a Psychic energy on a Dusk Mane Necrozma GX and you have full mobility with Altar of the Moone in play.
Energy Recycler - This allows you to go crazy with Ultra Ball/Mysterious Treasure to discard energy cards and not be afraid of having no energy in deck for the early/mid game when you meet the prize requirements to play Beast Ring. It allows you to make sure you have the right ratio of Metal & Psychic in deck whenever you need it as well. Steven's Decision allows you to see this card whenever you need it, (use him to search out 2 Beast Rings and 1 Energy Recycler if you need it. Guaranteed energy pool on play.)
Hi Duo,
Nice list but the number of draw supporters seems to be low. How about a list like this?
Pokémon (14):
Nice list but the number of draw supporters seems to be low. How about a list like this?
Pokémon (14):
- 1 Dawn Wing Necrozma GX (beatdown)
- 2 Ultra Necrozma GX (beatdown)
- 1 Necrozma GX SM3 (beatdown)
- 1 Tapu Lele SM-P (beatdown)
- 1 Mimikyu SM2 (beatdown)
- 2 Tapu Lele GX (beatdown)
- 3 Malamar (acceleration)
- 3 Inkay (evolution)
- 1 Steven’s Decision (search)
- 2 Tate and Liza (draw)
- 3 Guzma (control)
- 2 Copycat (draw)
- 4 Cynthia (draw)
- 2 Lillie (draw)
- 4 Mysterious Treasure (search)
- 1 Rescue Stretcher (retrieval)
- 3 Choice Band (beatdown)
- 3 Energy Lotto (search)
- 1 Field Blower (discard)
- 4 Ultra Ball (search)
- 3 Altar of the Moone (retreat)
- 9 Psychic Energy
- 1 Beast Energy
- 3 Unit Energy
Hello Dark Espeon, thank you for providing another list structure.
Personally, I think the supporter count is just fine, but I can see the concern.
Tate & Liza - I really don't like this supporter at the moment. I might warm up to it in the future, but I've stated my reasons for not being fond of it in the 2019 supporter cards thread. It's a supporter that combines the effects of a supporter and an item card, and the fact that one of the effects is something you can find on an item devalues it for me. Particularly due to the fact that this deck runs energy out of the discard pile, I think that Sophocoles is a far superior than Tate & Liza in this deck if we wanted to extend our draw support.
Copycat - I think only one copy is necessary for the time being. I see Copycat as a card that you play after your opponent plays Steven's Decision and you want the ability to respond immediately by playing something like Copycat that allows you to draw your cards and use them too. Something that I think should be taken into consideration is now that everyone expects a few copies of Judge & Copycat in everyone's deck, I think everyone should/will adopt a playstyle of making sure to always end turns with 5 or less cards in hand to prevent their opponents from having a reason to use those supporters in the first place. But having 1 copy to respond to Steven is still a good idea in my eyes.
Lillie - I'm not sure I like the 2nd copy. I think that 1 Steven, 1 Lillie, and 1 Copycat are the "holy trinity of opening supporters" come post rotation.
Turn 1 going first: All 3 supporters have conditions in which they would be useful here. You can Steven after setting up a decent bench, or Lillie expecting to draw more cards to set up immediately. At the same time, if you mulliganed a lot and your opponent is sitting on 8+ cards, you can go ahead and copycat that.
Turn 1 going second: Lillie and Copycat are especially good here as you sometimes want to make sure you have your attack for turn available, especially if you're using something like Alolan Vulpix. Steven still isn't a bad idea, but since you're going second, it gives your opponent the chance to Judge you or profit even further off of you on their 2nd turn.
I'd say you have enough turn 1 options between the three supporters, so you'll be fine most of the time in terms of not having them all be prized. I also don't think Lillie has much value outside of turn 1. Sophocles grants you a hard +2 to hand size regardless of your hand, but he also discards 2 cards to prevent them from going back into your deck after a Judge or your own Cynthia later in the game. Lillie can net you an overall +2 to hand size if you play her at 4 cards in hand, but she can't sculpt your deck without the ability to discard cards.
Long story short, I would make my supporter line up look like this if 10 seems a bit too skinny:
Cynthia x4
Guzma x3
Sophocles x2
Copycat x1
Steven x1
Lillie x1
And that gives us 12 supporters, 6 of which being very stable draw supporters for the deck.
Energy Loto is an interesting choice and I can see why you put it here. I'm just not certain the deck actually needs it to function. Unit Energy is also an interesting choice, but since I think Beast Ring is better energy acceleration than Energy Loto, I need to be running basic Metals in order for that to work. The reason why I think Energy Loto shouldn't be necessary is because of the interaction of Sophocoles vs Lillie that I just mentioned. Early on in the game, you will be seeing yourself playing a lot of Ultra Ball and Mysterious Treasure to find the Pokemon that you need. Because of that, you will be discarding either a bunch of energy, cards you don't think you'll need again, or both. By discarding your hand a lot and searching out cards directly from your deck, you make it easier and easier to naturally draw the energy you need since you will be filtering your hand and deck. If you playout your hand like this and then play Cynthia, odds are you're going to see energy. This deck has a cute energy balancing act going on where you always want to have an energy in hand to attach per turn, but you always want 2-3 psychic in discard at all times to enable Malamar, and at the same time you want energy in deck to use Beast Ring. Overall I don't think Energy Loto is needed and Beast Ring should take much higher priority for revenge kills when your opponent snags the first GX kill on you.
Also, I think 3 Ultra Necrozma GX is the right number. We need all the consistency we can get. That being said, I'm not against only 1 copy of Dawn Wings. I've been questioning how much I care about 2x Dawn Wings when we can just spam Altar of the Moone.
Personally, I think the supporter count is just fine, but I can see the concern.
Tate & Liza - I really don't like this supporter at the moment. I might warm up to it in the future, but I've stated my reasons for not being fond of it in the 2019 supporter cards thread. It's a supporter that combines the effects of a supporter and an item card, and the fact that one of the effects is something you can find on an item devalues it for me. Particularly due to the fact that this deck runs energy out of the discard pile, I think that Sophocoles is a far superior than Tate & Liza in this deck if we wanted to extend our draw support.
Copycat - I think only one copy is necessary for the time being. I see Copycat as a card that you play after your opponent plays Steven's Decision and you want the ability to respond immediately by playing something like Copycat that allows you to draw your cards and use them too. Something that I think should be taken into consideration is now that everyone expects a few copies of Judge & Copycat in everyone's deck, I think everyone should/will adopt a playstyle of making sure to always end turns with 5 or less cards in hand to prevent their opponents from having a reason to use those supporters in the first place. But having 1 copy to respond to Steven is still a good idea in my eyes.
Lillie - I'm not sure I like the 2nd copy. I think that 1 Steven, 1 Lillie, and 1 Copycat are the "holy trinity of opening supporters" come post rotation.
Turn 1 going first: All 3 supporters have conditions in which they would be useful here. You can Steven after setting up a decent bench, or Lillie expecting to draw more cards to set up immediately. At the same time, if you mulliganed a lot and your opponent is sitting on 8+ cards, you can go ahead and copycat that.
Turn 1 going second: Lillie and Copycat are especially good here as you sometimes want to make sure you have your attack for turn available, especially if you're using something like Alolan Vulpix. Steven still isn't a bad idea, but since you're going second, it gives your opponent the chance to Judge you or profit even further off of you on their 2nd turn.
I'd say you have enough turn 1 options between the three supporters, so you'll be fine most of the time in terms of not having them all be prized. I also don't think Lillie has much value outside of turn 1. Sophocles grants you a hard +2 to hand size regardless of your hand, but he also discards 2 cards to prevent them from going back into your deck after a Judge or your own Cynthia later in the game. Lillie can net you an overall +2 to hand size if you play her at 4 cards in hand, but she can't sculpt your deck without the ability to discard cards.
Long story short, I would make my supporter line up look like this if 10 seems a bit too skinny:
Cynthia x4
Guzma x3
Sophocles x2
Copycat x1
Steven x1
Lillie x1
And that gives us 12 supporters, 6 of which being very stable draw supporters for the deck.
Energy Loto is an interesting choice and I can see why you put it here. I'm just not certain the deck actually needs it to function. Unit Energy is also an interesting choice, but since I think Beast Ring is better energy acceleration than Energy Loto, I need to be running basic Metals in order for that to work. The reason why I think Energy Loto shouldn't be necessary is because of the interaction of Sophocoles vs Lillie that I just mentioned. Early on in the game, you will be seeing yourself playing a lot of Ultra Ball and Mysterious Treasure to find the Pokemon that you need. Because of that, you will be discarding either a bunch of energy, cards you don't think you'll need again, or both. By discarding your hand a lot and searching out cards directly from your deck, you make it easier and easier to naturally draw the energy you need since you will be filtering your hand and deck. If you playout your hand like this and then play Cynthia, odds are you're going to see energy. This deck has a cute energy balancing act going on where you always want to have an energy in hand to attach per turn, but you always want 2-3 psychic in discard at all times to enable Malamar, and at the same time you want energy in deck to use Beast Ring. Overall I don't think Energy Loto is needed and Beast Ring should take much higher priority for revenge kills when your opponent snags the first GX kill on you.
Also, I think 3 Ultra Necrozma GX is the right number. We need all the consistency we can get. That being said, I'm not against only 1 copy of Dawn Wings. I've been questioning how much I care about 2x Dawn Wings when we can just spam Altar of the Moone.
Hi Duo,
I am not concerned about early game draw options at all since the deck runs 4-4 search items to find Tapu Lele GX to obtain some of the more stable draw supporters. However, late to mid-game additional draw supporters sure are needed to continue to be offensive. That is also the reason I am not sold on Beast Ring in this deck. You need to have one Pokémon GX defeated to use it and it is a dead card latter on. Beast ring is excellent acceleration for Buzzwole and Turbo Metal decks but I am not sold on it in this deck since it us supposed to be more proactive and you want to find the Metal Energy to ensure a turn two attack with Ultra Necrozma GX.
I am not concerned about early game draw options at all since the deck runs 4-4 search items to find Tapu Lele GX to obtain some of the more stable draw supporters. However, late to mid-game additional draw supporters sure are needed to continue to be offensive. That is also the reason I am not sold on Beast Ring in this deck. You need to have one Pokémon GX defeated to use it and it is a dead card latter on. Beast ring is excellent acceleration for Buzzwole and Turbo Metal decks but I am not sold on it in this deck since it us supposed to be more proactive and you want to find the Metal Energy to ensure a turn two attack with Ultra Necrozma GX.
That's an understandalbe perspective Dark Espeon.
The reason why I think Beast Ring is still good for this deck is because it's a discard deck, meaning you can do huge damage if you discard on attack. The Energy Recycler in my deck makes sure that I have the ability to search out the energy I need upon playing Beast Ring, including the metal.
Energy Loto is a good card for digging, but just because you dig 7 cards deep to look for energy doesn't mean that you're going to find specifically your Unit Energy or Beast Energy. You might just hit Psychic energy the whole time. On the other hand, if you struggled to find metal energy in the early game and that's exactly the reason why your opponent got an early KO, then Beast Ring becomes a guranteed way to immediately go on the counter attack. 2 Beast Rings will allow you to immediately put 1 Metal and 3 Psychic onto one UNGX, and the triple discard will net you 260 damage, enough to OHKO anything currently printed, and then you have the metal energy on at least one UNGX for the time being. If you are concerned about the long term, you can split your Beast Rings to put 1 Metal and 1 Psychic on two different UNGX, and then you have options even if one gets KO'd.
The thing I always want to re-emphasize about Beast Ring is that even though you have a specific 3-4 prize window, you can very realistically play all 3 of them in one turn thanks to Steven's Decision (you have to use him 1 turn in advance if you're expecting to get KO'd), and the amount of momentum that you can gain from charging up two UNGXs with 3 Beast Rings is too valuable in my eyes to take it safe & slow with Energy Loto. I don't think you have to guarantee turn 2 attacking if you can set up so much momentum to control the rest of the game after someone takes one KO on you.
Also, unless you had a perfect opening game where you opened UNGX on bench, attached a psychic energy, discarded another psychic energy, set up an Inkay, then on turn you set up Malamar, Loto'd for Metal, and then used Malamar to put the discarded energy on UNGX, the max power UNGX you'll have at this point is swinging for 180, which is just fine for the mirror or vs Buzzwole GX...if you have Choice Band as well. Otherwise you won't really be taking a very valuable KO with 100/180 damage on turn 2 anyway.
Not to mention if you really need Metal/Unit Energy, why not just make that one of the cards you search out with your turn 1 Steven if that happens to be the play you go for?
I dunno. Personally I think Beast Ring has far too much potential and revenge momentum for it to be ignored, and the fact that it guarantee searches energy out of your deck means that you never have to worry about missing with Loto.
The reason why I think Beast Ring is still good for this deck is because it's a discard deck, meaning you can do huge damage if you discard on attack. The Energy Recycler in my deck makes sure that I have the ability to search out the energy I need upon playing Beast Ring, including the metal.
Energy Loto is a good card for digging, but just because you dig 7 cards deep to look for energy doesn't mean that you're going to find specifically your Unit Energy or Beast Energy. You might just hit Psychic energy the whole time. On the other hand, if you struggled to find metal energy in the early game and that's exactly the reason why your opponent got an early KO, then Beast Ring becomes a guranteed way to immediately go on the counter attack. 2 Beast Rings will allow you to immediately put 1 Metal and 3 Psychic onto one UNGX, and the triple discard will net you 260 damage, enough to OHKO anything currently printed, and then you have the metal energy on at least one UNGX for the time being. If you are concerned about the long term, you can split your Beast Rings to put 1 Metal and 1 Psychic on two different UNGX, and then you have options even if one gets KO'd.
The thing I always want to re-emphasize about Beast Ring is that even though you have a specific 3-4 prize window, you can very realistically play all 3 of them in one turn thanks to Steven's Decision (you have to use him 1 turn in advance if you're expecting to get KO'd), and the amount of momentum that you can gain from charging up two UNGXs with 3 Beast Rings is too valuable in my eyes to take it safe & slow with Energy Loto. I don't think you have to guarantee turn 2 attacking if you can set up so much momentum to control the rest of the game after someone takes one KO on you.
Also, unless you had a perfect opening game where you opened UNGX on bench, attached a psychic energy, discarded another psychic energy, set up an Inkay, then on turn you set up Malamar, Loto'd for Metal, and then used Malamar to put the discarded energy on UNGX, the max power UNGX you'll have at this point is swinging for 180, which is just fine for the mirror or vs Buzzwole GX...if you have Choice Band as well. Otherwise you won't really be taking a very valuable KO with 100/180 damage on turn 2 anyway.
Not to mention if you really need Metal/Unit Energy, why not just make that one of the cards you search out with your turn 1 Steven if that happens to be the play you go for?
I dunno. Personally I think Beast Ring has far too much potential and revenge momentum for it to be ignored, and the fact that it guarantee searches energy out of your deck means that you never have to worry about missing with Loto.
Hell, now I'm putting Beast Ring in Ultra Necrozma. That reasoning is actually very justified, and makes a whole lotta sense. I do only see one problem with the Steven comment though. If Steven's Decision is so strong, why wouldn't people play 2 Judge? Zoroark definitely will, Buzzwole might, and I can see anything with Oranguru running 2. Of course, that's not to say that you should change counts of either of those cards, because I do think the counts are good, but just a little note to keep on the side.
Hi Duo,
I do see the reason but I still believe that more draw supporters are needed in this deck to stabilize it. I can also see the reason for Beast Ring and it sure is an excellent card. I run four of them in all other Ultra Beast decks. I am still not sold on it in this deck unless you are willing to run three of them to ensure you draw into them when needed. Sure Steven's Decision can be used to search for it turn one going first when you want to sacrifice a Pokémon GX to activate it but this also implies that you cannot use any shuffle draw supporter to draw until your opponent killed they pray you were willing to sacrifice. Most Pokémon in Malamar decks do not have good turn one attacks unlike Buzzwole or Turbo Metal decks. You therefore run the risk to slow yourself down a lot more than you want. Furthermore, Malamar varaints are not the only decks that can abuse Beast Ring. Once the first vengance attack was unleashed to knock out an opponent's Pokémon GX the opponent can return the favor by using their own Beast Rings which will be stables in Buzzwole decks and Turbo Metal decks. I do see the argument against Energy Lotto and I am still unsure on whether to use Energy Lotto or Rainbow Brush with Basic Metal Energy to ensure a turn two Ultra Necrozma GX or another potent turn two attacker to apply preasure early on.
Hi gumball51321,
Post rotation turn one Steven's Choice indeed looks excellent since the options available to the opponent to mess with your hand while still mantaining a stabke card flow are limited. Judge is a nice disruption card but it will leave you with no more than four cards to utilize. While disrupting your opponent using Judge turn one going second to undo the benefits of the opponent's Steven's Decision could hurt you too. You cannot have Zoroark out on your first turn going second to buffer the downside of limiting yourself to four cards in hand after using Judge.
I do see the reason but I still believe that more draw supporters are needed in this deck to stabilize it. I can also see the reason for Beast Ring and it sure is an excellent card. I run four of them in all other Ultra Beast decks. I am still not sold on it in this deck unless you are willing to run three of them to ensure you draw into them when needed. Sure Steven's Decision can be used to search for it turn one going first when you want to sacrifice a Pokémon GX to activate it but this also implies that you cannot use any shuffle draw supporter to draw until your opponent killed they pray you were willing to sacrifice. Most Pokémon in Malamar decks do not have good turn one attacks unlike Buzzwole or Turbo Metal decks. You therefore run the risk to slow yourself down a lot more than you want. Furthermore, Malamar varaints are not the only decks that can abuse Beast Ring. Once the first vengance attack was unleashed to knock out an opponent's Pokémon GX the opponent can return the favor by using their own Beast Rings which will be stables in Buzzwole decks and Turbo Metal decks. I do see the argument against Energy Lotto and I am still unsure on whether to use Energy Lotto or Rainbow Brush with Basic Metal Energy to ensure a turn two Ultra Necrozma GX or another potent turn two attacker to apply preasure early on.
Hi gumball51321,
Post rotation turn one Steven's Choice indeed looks excellent since the options available to the opponent to mess with your hand while still mantaining a stabke card flow are limited. Judge is a nice disruption card but it will leave you with no more than four cards to utilize. While disrupting your opponent using Judge turn one going second to undo the benefits of the opponent's Steven's Decision could hurt you too. You cannot have Zoroark out on your first turn going second to buffer the downside of limiting yourself to four cards in hand after using Judge.
Dark Espeon,
Always appreciate the insight and trying to see outside the box. Obviously, none of us know exactly what the post rotation meta will look like and whether or not UNGX will actually remain a good deck relative to the other Ultra Beasts or the other decks in general.
As far as Steven is concerned, I am never trying to intentionally sacrifice a GX Pokemon just to use him and Beast Ring. Pokemon TCG is all about anticipation and reading the game state - it's something that you would anticipate, not plan for. All I mean to say is that the option to recover IS there, and you have the opportunity to make a comeback. Your opponent taking advantage of Beast Ring is also why I brought up the idea that it might be better to split 1/1 metal/psychic on two different UNGXs so that you will have more than 1 attacker ready to go in the event that your opponent Beast Rings and takes out one of yours. It's an uphill battle, but all decks can fail to get going, and not all decks can recover from a bad start like this one.
Also I agree on the Judge comment. I made a thread in competitive play talking specifically about the relationship of Zoroark GX vs Judge and the fact that Judge disrupts you just as hard as your opponent. Unless you are confident that you don't need a playable hand the upcoming turn, Judge has far too much risk for both sides. It's not like N where you just slam it down after your opponent takes a KO so that you're at 6 cards and your opponent is down to 4. Not to mention that if you're behind on board state and play a Judge, you are most likely hurting yourself more. My general line of thinking is that if someone plays Steven, instead of responding with Judge to hinder them, you should play Copycat so that you can inflate your own hand and be able to play all the cards you get that turn too, whereas the Steven player is forced to wait a turn. Basically, you get the jump on someone trying to play Steven.
EDIT: Also I have put 2 copies of Sophocles into the list now to address the lack of stable draw supporters and the lack of Zoroark GX in the list. Please see the original post for the updated list.
Always appreciate the insight and trying to see outside the box. Obviously, none of us know exactly what the post rotation meta will look like and whether or not UNGX will actually remain a good deck relative to the other Ultra Beasts or the other decks in general.
As far as Steven is concerned, I am never trying to intentionally sacrifice a GX Pokemon just to use him and Beast Ring. Pokemon TCG is all about anticipation and reading the game state - it's something that you would anticipate, not plan for. All I mean to say is that the option to recover IS there, and you have the opportunity to make a comeback. Your opponent taking advantage of Beast Ring is also why I brought up the idea that it might be better to split 1/1 metal/psychic on two different UNGXs so that you will have more than 1 attacker ready to go in the event that your opponent Beast Rings and takes out one of yours. It's an uphill battle, but all decks can fail to get going, and not all decks can recover from a bad start like this one.
Also I agree on the Judge comment. I made a thread in competitive play talking specifically about the relationship of Zoroark GX vs Judge and the fact that Judge disrupts you just as hard as your opponent. Unless you are confident that you don't need a playable hand the upcoming turn, Judge has far too much risk for both sides. It's not like N where you just slam it down after your opponent takes a KO so that you're at 6 cards and your opponent is down to 4. Not to mention that if you're behind on board state and play a Judge, you are most likely hurting yourself more. My general line of thinking is that if someone plays Steven, instead of responding with Judge to hinder them, you should play Copycat so that you can inflate your own hand and be able to play all the cards you get that turn too, whereas the Steven player is forced to wait a turn. Basically, you get the jump on someone trying to play Steven.
EDIT: Also I have put 2 copies of Sophocles into the list now to address the lack of stable draw supporters and the lack of Zoroark GX in the list. Please see the original post for the updated list.
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So I don't know why I didn't see this card yet but,
Lady is a mandatory 1 of in this deck if you don't want to miss your Metals.
Search your deck for up to 4 basic Energy cards, reveal them, and put them into your hand. Then, shuffle your deck.
Forget the copy of Copycat, Lady is FAR more important for this deck's consistency. Grab yourself 4 energy, perhaps 2 metal 2 psychic, discard the 2 psychic with Mysterious Treasure/Ultra Ball, Malamar them back, and save the Metals to attach.
Play Energy Recycler if you searched too much energy out of your deck at a time.
Still keeping 4 metal and 1 Beast energy, because if you don't have to resort to using Lady, you can save a supporter for turn.
Updated decklist in the original post.
Lady is a mandatory 1 of in this deck if you don't want to miss your Metals.
Search your deck for up to 4 basic Energy cards, reveal them, and put them into your hand. Then, shuffle your deck.
Forget the copy of Copycat, Lady is FAR more important for this deck's consistency. Grab yourself 4 energy, perhaps 2 metal 2 psychic, discard the 2 psychic with Mysterious Treasure/Ultra Ball, Malamar them back, and save the Metals to attach.
Play Energy Recycler if you searched too much energy out of your deck at a time.
Still keeping 4 metal and 1 Beast energy, because if you don't have to resort to using Lady, you can save a supporter for turn.
Updated decklist in the original post.
Bumping this list with an update after testing this deck against what I would believe to be its number 1 worst match up - Gardevoir/Sylveon.
Between 1 copy of Necrozma GX, 1 copy of Dusk Mane Necrozma Promo, and 1 copy of Magical Swap Tapu Lele (Psychic), UNGX has everything it needs to stand a reasonable chance against beating Fairy decks.
Changes I've made that I can't do in the original post since editing is currently broken for me:
-1 Steven's Decision
+1 Lillie
Steven's Decision is far too slow. If you aren't using it on Turn 1, you aren't ever using it. Between Lady, Lillie, Cynthia, and Sophocles, this deck has plenty of good turn 1 options already. The +1 Lillie is here because this is a discard deck. There are plenty of opportunities for you to discard down to 2 or less cards and refill with Lillie beyond turn 1. Speaking of Lady, I want to highlight the fact that one copy of Lady is just strictly mandatory in my opinion. The ability to sculpt your energy in hand and in discard due to 4 Ultra Ball and 4 Mysterious Treasure is nuts. Lady also fills up your hand size to make sure you can play those cards without discarding things you don't want to discard.
-1 Energy Recycler
+1 Dusk Mane Necrozma Promo
Dusk Mane Necrozma Promo is as every good as I hoped it would be. The single energy attack makes it a great opener to punish Zoroark GX, Gardevoir GX, your opponent's UNGX, and Tapu Lele GX. Basically it helps reduce the energy you need on either Necrozma GX or Ultra Necrozma GX by 1, which makes it a viable tech even without being up against Fairy. Even if your set up is slow, you have a Pokemon in the active closing the gaps to compensate. As far as competing against Fairy is concerned, it OHKOs Sylveons which can stop Gardy GX dead in its tracks, and with a Beast Energy/Choice Band it OHKOs Gardevoirs as well.
You don't need Energy Recycler (+ Beast Ring combo) in this deck. You should always be playing your cards intelligently and acknowledging the viability of Beast Ring vs the number of Malamars you have set up to just do the same job in the right context. I've never seen it or felt the need for it in any playtesting match so far.
I'm honestly thinking about doing -1 Tapu Lele GX for +1 Necrozma GX because I just like the thing that much, but I don't know how I feel about reducing Leles in a format where reliable draw support is further away.
Between 1 copy of Necrozma GX, 1 copy of Dusk Mane Necrozma Promo, and 1 copy of Magical Swap Tapu Lele (Psychic), UNGX has everything it needs to stand a reasonable chance against beating Fairy decks.
Changes I've made that I can't do in the original post since editing is currently broken for me:
-1 Steven's Decision
+1 Lillie
Steven's Decision is far too slow. If you aren't using it on Turn 1, you aren't ever using it. Between Lady, Lillie, Cynthia, and Sophocles, this deck has plenty of good turn 1 options already. The +1 Lillie is here because this is a discard deck. There are plenty of opportunities for you to discard down to 2 or less cards and refill with Lillie beyond turn 1. Speaking of Lady, I want to highlight the fact that one copy of Lady is just strictly mandatory in my opinion. The ability to sculpt your energy in hand and in discard due to 4 Ultra Ball and 4 Mysterious Treasure is nuts. Lady also fills up your hand size to make sure you can play those cards without discarding things you don't want to discard.
-1 Energy Recycler
+1 Dusk Mane Necrozma Promo
Dusk Mane Necrozma Promo is as every good as I hoped it would be. The single energy attack makes it a great opener to punish Zoroark GX, Gardevoir GX, your opponent's UNGX, and Tapu Lele GX. Basically it helps reduce the energy you need on either Necrozma GX or Ultra Necrozma GX by 1, which makes it a viable tech even without being up against Fairy. Even if your set up is slow, you have a Pokemon in the active closing the gaps to compensate. As far as competing against Fairy is concerned, it OHKOs Sylveons which can stop Gardy GX dead in its tracks, and with a Beast Energy/Choice Band it OHKOs Gardevoirs as well.
You don't need Energy Recycler (+ Beast Ring combo) in this deck. You should always be playing your cards intelligently and acknowledging the viability of Beast Ring vs the number of Malamars you have set up to just do the same job in the right context. I've never seen it or felt the need for it in any playtesting match so far.
I'm honestly thinking about doing -1 Tapu Lele GX for +1 Necrozma GX because I just like the thing that much, but I don't know how I feel about reducing Leles in a format where reliable draw support is further away.
Have you considered the new Dialga? For a metal and two colorless, you OHKO Zoroark and Gardevoir by devolving them.
Friend Ball and Energy Recycle System are both two decent 1-ofs as well post rotation, Friend Ball allowing you to search for Malamars (assuming your opponent plays Tapu Lele), and Energy Recycle System allows you to get Metal Energies back.
Friend Ball and Energy Recycle System are both two decent 1-ofs as well post rotation, Friend Ball allowing you to search for Malamars (assuming your opponent plays Tapu Lele), and Energy Recycle System allows you to get Metal Energies back.
Dialga is too high of an energy investment for taking a 1 prize KO IMO. I feel that Dusk Mane Necrozma Promo is the better option for dancing with fairy decks since it can be accelerated with Beast Rings and can take the 2 prize KO against Gardevoirs.
I'm not worried about Zoroark GX because Ultra Necrozma GX can easily OHKO Zoroark GX already without throwing in more tech cards to make the deck more clumsy.
Haven't considered Friend Ball yet, but this deck is fine on Pokemon searching between 4 copies of Ultra and 4 copies of Mysterious Treasure to not need to rely on something like that.
I used to run an Energy Recycler in the deck as a 1 of in order to shove 5 energy back into the deck to make sure Beast Rings can even be played in the first place, but you simply just never need it. It's not that hard to manage your energy between Malamar, Lady, and Beast Ring, and I don't think an Energy Recycle System will be needed either.
After doing more playtesting with this deck, the main problem I have with it is that it's very clumsy. It runs no utility attacks on Pokemon like Beacon to search Pokemon or Registeel to accelerate energy prior to Malamars getting set up, and it honestly doesn't have room on the bench to do so since you are pretty much forced to have a copy of Dawn Wings Necrozma GX on the bench in order to force things out of the active to get charged up by Malamar, 2 copies of Malamar at least, likely 1 Lele for supporter searching, and that only leaves 2 open slots left (active and 1 more bench).
Maybe I just suck at handling the deck, but I brick more often than most decks with this one. I'm still trying to figure out a solution to make it run better, whether that's through more practice or changing the list.
I'm not worried about Zoroark GX because Ultra Necrozma GX can easily OHKO Zoroark GX already without throwing in more tech cards to make the deck more clumsy.
Haven't considered Friend Ball yet, but this deck is fine on Pokemon searching between 4 copies of Ultra and 4 copies of Mysterious Treasure to not need to rely on something like that.
I used to run an Energy Recycler in the deck as a 1 of in order to shove 5 energy back into the deck to make sure Beast Rings can even be played in the first place, but you simply just never need it. It's not that hard to manage your energy between Malamar, Lady, and Beast Ring, and I don't think an Energy Recycle System will be needed either.
After doing more playtesting with this deck, the main problem I have with it is that it's very clumsy. It runs no utility attacks on Pokemon like Beacon to search Pokemon or Registeel to accelerate energy prior to Malamars getting set up, and it honestly doesn't have room on the bench to do so since you are pretty much forced to have a copy of Dawn Wings Necrozma GX on the bench in order to force things out of the active to get charged up by Malamar, 2 copies of Malamar at least, likely 1 Lele for supporter searching, and that only leaves 2 open slots left (active and 1 more bench).
Maybe I just suck at handling the deck, but I brick more often than most decks with this one. I'm still trying to figure out a solution to make it run better, whether that's through more practice or changing the list.
maybe go from 3 Tapu Lele GX from 3 to 2. Cut a BUS Necrozma. Cut Steven’s Decision.
Maybe move Malamar from a 3-3 line to a 4-4 line. At the very least, a 4th Inkay.
maybe add Hula Oricorio.
Does Energy Recycler help at all?
You might be able to down to 3 steel energy. Maybe 9 Psychic Energy instead of 8.
Any thoughts on Acro Bike?
And maybe bump up your Sophocles count
Maybe move Malamar from a 3-3 line to a 4-4 line. At the very least, a 4th Inkay.
maybe add Hula Oricorio.
Does Energy Recycler help at all?
You might be able to down to 3 steel energy. Maybe 9 Psychic Energy instead of 8.
Any thoughts on Acro Bike?
And maybe bump up your Sophocles count
Hold that thought Merovingian.
The new Sightseer supporter that was announced might just be a mandatory 4 of in this deck now. Give me some time to playtest & reorganize the deck list, but there's no way a deck like this isn't running 4 copies of a selective discard draw supporter.
The new Sightseer supporter that was announced might just be a mandatory 4 of in this deck now. Give me some time to playtest & reorganize the deck list, but there's no way a deck like this isn't running 4 copies of a selective discard draw supporter.
Original post decklist has been updated to take into consideration the new Sightseer supporter as well as the results of my playtesting. Please review it to see my reasoning, if you care. I'll also just post the latest list here for convenience and people who just want the tl;dr
Pokemon x21
Ultra Necrozma GX x4
Dawn Wings Necrozma GX x3
Necrozma GX x2
Malamar x4
Inkay x4
Tapu Lele GX x3
Tapu Lele (Psychic w/ Magical Swap) x1
Supporter x13
Cynthia x4
Sightseer x4
Guzma x3
Lady x1
Lillie x1
Item x13
Mysterious Treasure x4
Switch x4
Choice Band x3
Beast Ring x2
Energy x13
Psychic Energy x8
Metal Energy x4
Beast Energy Prism Star x1
Pokemon x21
Ultra Necrozma GX x4
Dawn Wings Necrozma GX x3
Necrozma GX x2
Malamar x4
Inkay x4
Tapu Lele GX x3
Tapu Lele (Psychic w/ Magical Swap) x1
Supporter x13
Cynthia x4
Sightseer x4
Guzma x3
Lady x1
Lillie x1
Item x13
Mysterious Treasure x4
Switch x4
Choice Band x3
Beast Ring x2
Energy x13
Psychic Energy x8
Metal Energy x4
Beast Energy Prism Star x1
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Here’s the problem with Sightseer:
Thunderclap Spark/Fairy Rise comes out in October—legal in November.
You really want to wait until late fall for an optimal Malamar list?
I know it’s post rotation, but anything beyond SM7 seems like it’s madness and not worth the effort where we currently sit.
Thunderclap Spark/Fairy Rise comes out in October—legal in November.
You really want to wait until late fall for an optimal Malamar list?
I know it’s post rotation, but anything beyond SM7 seems like it’s madness and not worth the effort where we currently sit.
I have yet to playtest the updated list with Sightseer, but I think whether you play Sophocles or Sightseer, the fundamental concept of removing Ultra Ball to max out on Pokemon is the right idea. Maxing out on Pokemon reduces the need for search cards, and it also makes it so that more of your hand can be safely discarded without penalty. I currently have 4 Sophocles as place holders for Sightseer and will test it out both ways, because honestly Sophocles might still be a better supporter than Sightseer in this deck.
It kind of just took Sightseer coming out for me to...see that I could do this (yeah? Good pun? No? Okay sorry).
As far as waiting is concerned, I'm already rolling my Gardevoir GX/Sylveon GX/Zoroark GX list, as well as Alolan Ninetales GX/Zoroark GX, both of which currently run better than the previous version of UNGX.
Yes, Alolan Ninetales GX/Zoroark GX also slaughters UNGX. Choice Banded Alolan Ninetales GX tears through UNGX since it's seated at 190 HP as the highest HP Pokemon.
I will updated the deck list to say 4 Sightseer/Sophocles for the time being.
It kind of just took Sightseer coming out for me to...see that I could do this (yeah? Good pun? No? Okay sorry).
As far as waiting is concerned, I'm already rolling my Gardevoir GX/Sylveon GX/Zoroark GX list, as well as Alolan Ninetales GX/Zoroark GX, both of which currently run better than the previous version of UNGX.
Yes, Alolan Ninetales GX/Zoroark GX also slaughters UNGX. Choice Banded Alolan Ninetales GX tears through UNGX since it's seated at 190 HP as the highest HP Pokemon.
I will updated the deck list to say 4 Sightseer/Sophocles for the time being.
Hi Guys... Duo and everyone else working hard to prepare for next season.
Took your lists, tested against my friend (who is playing Magnezone/ Dusk Mane Necrozma) and using Steven's resolve it sets up t2 Magnezone every turn. I didn't want to add a judge in just yet to disrupt her but I really feel like losing sycamore is hurting my set up. In current standard I usually have two Malamars set up turn two but i just cant seem to burn through enough cards to get there anymore without sycamore.
Here's the list I've been testing, mostly copied from here when changing my current standard deck:
Pokemon x18
Ultra Necrozma GX x3
Dawn Wings Necrozma GX x2
Necrozma GX x2
Malamar x4
Inkay x4
Tapu Lele GX x2
Tapu Lele (Psychic) x1
Supporter x13
Cynthia x4
Sophocles x4
Guzma x3
Lady x1
Lillie x1
Item x16
Mysterious Treasure x4
Choice Band x3
Beast Ring x2
Ultra Ball x 3
Altar of the Moone x4
Energy x13
Psychic Energy x8
Steel Energy x4
Beast Energy Prism Star x1
So following all your idea's, except I decreased my pokemon and increased my Ultra balls, attempting to save myself some money and be more versatile... But I have been beaten every time so...
Altar of the Moone is not giving me the same out that Float stone did to retreat. When I needed it I never have it or its taken out and I can't burn through the deck fast enough without Sycamore. And then When I'm trying to pull off just the right amount of energies, I end up short.
Lady: Can't seem to get the steel energy when I need it anymore and lady hasn't been that useful. I end up using my supporters to draw and then Lady isn't useful as I get it.
Beast Ring is no longer being pulled off convincingly either. Again, it isn't easily available when I need it to revenge kill.
Necrozma GX vs Ultra Necrozma GX: I know I've mostly tested vs Steel but I end up making attachment errors. Getting the steel when I need Psychic. Getting the Psychic when I need steel. And I am trying to pull of OHKO every turn after turn 1 and it just is not happening anymore (Come back sycamore, come back).
Cynthia: I hate reshuffling back into my deck. The probability of drawing into what you need when you are adding back into your deck instead of discarding is messing with my calculations of what I should/ could draw. Making it feel more like luck then a gut calculation. (This is making me Sick-amore)
Sophocles is just not enough draw.
I really want to have a confident idea of how this deck can OHKO from turn 2 for +180 dmg but right now it's looking way off . My first port of call will probably be to add Steven's Resolve and try for a turn two set up, but if I can't even draw into my two Inky's turn 1 then what's the point. And if everyone is going to tech in a judge to disrupt Steven then I Don't know any more...
My major feeling is that losing Sycamore, amongst other changes, has vastly reduced my starting consistency(mind I normally try and Lillie turn 1 and used to sycamore turn two to finish up the setup). But I'm sure its more than that.
Any and all help will be appreciated. I really can't stand losing to this steel deck.
Sunderaj
Took your lists, tested against my friend (who is playing Magnezone/ Dusk Mane Necrozma) and using Steven's resolve it sets up t2 Magnezone every turn. I didn't want to add a judge in just yet to disrupt her but I really feel like losing sycamore is hurting my set up. In current standard I usually have two Malamars set up turn two but i just cant seem to burn through enough cards to get there anymore without sycamore.
Here's the list I've been testing, mostly copied from here when changing my current standard deck:
Pokemon x18
Ultra Necrozma GX x3
Dawn Wings Necrozma GX x2
Necrozma GX x2
Malamar x4
Inkay x4
Tapu Lele GX x2
Tapu Lele (Psychic) x1
Supporter x13
Cynthia x4
Sophocles x4
Guzma x3
Lady x1
Lillie x1
Item x16
Mysterious Treasure x4
Choice Band x3
Beast Ring x2
Ultra Ball x 3
Altar of the Moone x4
Energy x13
Psychic Energy x8
Steel Energy x4
Beast Energy Prism Star x1
So following all your idea's, except I decreased my pokemon and increased my Ultra balls, attempting to save myself some money and be more versatile... But I have been beaten every time so...
Altar of the Moone is not giving me the same out that Float stone did to retreat. When I needed it I never have it or its taken out and I can't burn through the deck fast enough without Sycamore. And then When I'm trying to pull off just the right amount of energies, I end up short.
Lady: Can't seem to get the steel energy when I need it anymore and lady hasn't been that useful. I end up using my supporters to draw and then Lady isn't useful as I get it.
Beast Ring is no longer being pulled off convincingly either. Again, it isn't easily available when I need it to revenge kill.
Necrozma GX vs Ultra Necrozma GX: I know I've mostly tested vs Steel but I end up making attachment errors. Getting the steel when I need Psychic. Getting the Psychic when I need steel. And I am trying to pull of OHKO every turn after turn 1 and it just is not happening anymore (Come back sycamore, come back).
Cynthia: I hate reshuffling back into my deck. The probability of drawing into what you need when you are adding back into your deck instead of discarding is messing with my calculations of what I should/ could draw. Making it feel more like luck then a gut calculation. (This is making me Sick-amore)
Sophocles is just not enough draw.
I really want to have a confident idea of how this deck can OHKO from turn 2 for +180 dmg but right now it's looking way off . My first port of call will probably be to add Steven's Resolve and try for a turn two set up, but if I can't even draw into my two Inky's turn 1 then what's the point. And if everyone is going to tech in a judge to disrupt Steven then I Don't know any more...
My major feeling is that losing Sycamore, amongst other changes, has vastly reduced my starting consistency(mind I normally try and Lillie turn 1 and used to sycamore turn two to finish up the setup). But I'm sure its more than that.
Any and all help will be appreciated. I really can't stand losing to this steel deck.
Sunderaj