Okay...I'm obviously very frustrated and it's causing me to get personal, which I shouldn't, and I apologize.
No, I don't have an answer from a respectable judge (yet). I'll admit I've been involved with this game less than a year. But one thing I have been personally working on with the PokeGym team is a comprehensive rulebook (something far more in-depth than the theme deck rulebooks) as a resource to place alongside the Compendium. I have discussed a large number of topics at length with the Rules Team over the last four months as part of this project. I've reviewed the entire Compendium EX multiple times as they've been working toward the new version (Compendium LV.X) -- I've
seen the new version, actually. I have spent over 1,000 hours since October focusing on nothing but understanding the rules and the rulings. The Rules Team has acknowledged my work as extensive and accurate. I like to think that my grasp of this game's rules at this point is very,
very firm. What I mainly lack right now is "street cred" in the Pokemon world -- but my goal is to be one of those "respectable judges" by next year
Heck, maybe I'll get to take that disclaimer out of my sig at some point.
But those credentials don't automatically make me right. What I'm going to do is step back and breathe a bit, and try to explain things better, including things I've learned from personal chats with the Rules Team. Effects were one of the longest topics, so understand that I'm not just making this up. I do that sometimes, but not right now
This works a lot like a mathematical proof. And it's
long. You might want to drink some coffee before reading this post.
First, let's define what an effect is. An effect is basically an modifier to the game state (something happening that wouldn't normally happen). An effect can be created by basically anything in the game -- an attack, a Poke-Power, a Poke-Body, or a Trainer card.
Some effects are one-shot modifiers -- Trainer cards like Warp Point, for example. The effect of the card causes both players to switch. Once that's finished, the effect is resolved and goes away (along with the card).
Some effects are continuous modifiers -- things like Stadiums and Poke-Bodies. Let's use Moonlight Stadium from the new set as an example. It creates a modifier on each Psychic and Dark Pokemon that says "This Pokemon's Retreat Cost is 0". This modifier stays as long as the Stadium is in play, and goes away if the Stadium leaves play.
And finally, some effects are triggered effects. Once created, the effect watches for its trigger event, and when it happens, it creates a one-shot modifier that causes something new to happen. A good example is the Smokescreen-type attack on a whole bunch of Pokemon. When you use that attack, after doing its damage, it also creates a modifier on the opposing Pokemon that says "During the next turn, if this Pokemon tries to attack, its owner flips a coin. If tails, that attack does nothing." On the next turn, an attempt to attack triggers that effect and causes its modifier to resolve, which forces the attacker to flip a coin and possibly lose their attack.
Now let me go back to that silly Fluff ruling I keep bringing up. You're right that it's not directly applicable to this case, but most of the rulings in the Compendium are built on previous rulings that establish a precedent. Here's the ruling and the relevant card text:
Q. If Dark Raticate uses "Dark Seed" against a damaged Swablu, is the "Fluff" coin flip done as soon as the attack is announced, when the 5 damage counters are placed, or both times?
A. It would only be done the first time. You would flip for Fluff when the Dark Seed attack puts the effect onto the Swablu; but you would not flip when the five damage counters are placed because that's a *result of the effect* on Swablu rather than a direct result of the Dark Seed attack [just like you wouldn't flip each time you placed a damage counter for poison]. (Apr 21, 2005 PUI Rules Team)
(Poke-Body) Fluff
Whenever Swablu would be damaged or affected by an opponent's attack and already has at least 1 damage counter on it, flip a coin. If heads, prevent all effects of that attack, including damage, done to Swablu.
Dark Seed
The Defending Pokemon can't retreat during your opponent's next turn. Put 5 damage counters on the Defending Pokemon at the end of your opponent's next turn.
Dark Seed creates a triggered effect: "At the end of the next turn, put 5 damage counters on this Pokemon". The trigger is, of course, the end of that turn.
We're pretty clear that when the opponent tries to attack Swablu (assuming all the other conditions for Fluff are met), Swablu's owner gets to flip a coin. If heads, Fluff prevents both the attack damage and the creation of the triggered effect.
But suppose we got tails instead. The effect gets created and placed on Swablu, and when the trigger occurs (the end of the opponent's next turn), it causes the effect to resolve, which causes 5 damage counters to be placed on Swablu. Now this is the key point. Fluff says "whenever Swablu would be damaged
or affected by an opponent's attack". According to the ruling, though, Fluff does not get to flip when the effect triggers and goes to place the 5 damage counters as it resolves. Why not? After all, the effect came from an opponent's attack, right?
But as you can read in the ruling, it's because the damage is the
result of the effect. Fluff can't prevent the effect from resolving, it can only prevent the effect from being created in the first place. The effect resolution is not considered an effect of the original attack, and that's why Fluff doesn't even get a chance to prevent it.
This ruling is so important to the argument because it's
not limited to Fluff. It extrapolates to
anything that says "prevent all effects...done to that Pokemon" -- Holon WP, Unown G, Wormadam, you name it. They don't pull these rulings out of thin air -- there is reason to all of them, and it's based on the
card text in question. In this case that text is "prevent all effects". It doesn't prevent effect
resolution, only
creation.
Did you know that Poison is an effect? That's something I learned from PokePop. Poison is a continuous modifier: "In between turns, place 1 damage counter on this Pokemon". It just happens to have a visible marker that goes along with it, to make it easier to remember, but it's an effect with or without the marker. I bring up Poison to illustrate another concept. Say your Pokemon is Poisoned, and you attach Holon WP and a Water Energy to it. Does Poison get removed? No, it doesn't. Holon WP says to
prevent all effects, but it doesn't remove ones that are already there.
Now that I have established the fundamentals of this proof, I can finish connecting all the dots with regards to Sandslash.
Spike Armor
During your opponent's next turn, if Sandslash is damaged by an opponent's attack (even if Sandslash is Knocked Out), put 4 damage counters on the Attacking Pokemon.
Spike Armor creates a triggered effect, but unlike the previous examples, this is an effect placed on Sandslash itself, not the opponent's Pokemon. Things like Holon WP can't prevent this effect from being created -- remember, they all say "prevent all effects...done
to that Pokemon". But this effect isn't being done to the opponent's Pokemon, it's something Sandslash places on itself. So the effect is created regardless of anything that prevents effects on the opponent's Pokemon.
Now comes the opponent's turn. They attack, which triggers the effect to resolve. But recall what we learned from the Fluff ruling! The resolution of an effect is not an effect. If it was, Fluff would get to try that second flip, but it doesn't. As a result, we established that these "prevent all effects" powers can't prevent the resolution of an effect, only its creation. That includes Holon WP.
The conclusion? Sandslash's effect gets to place 4 damage counters, regardless of the presence of Holon WP.
I don't think I can explain things any better than that. I hope it all makes sense to everyone, whether you agree or disagree. I might be wrong in the end (depending on what the Rules Team says), but I'm not making this stuff up either
We're in uncharted territory here -- there hasn't ever been an interaction quite like this in the game before. PokePop mentioned that in his reply to my ATM post, which is why he deferred an answer to the Rules Team meeting next week (they didn't meet this week due to Valentine's Day).
