Discussion What do you think should happen to the Battle Arena Decks?

[signofzeta]

WOTC is going to discontinue the duel decks for Magic the Gathering, and instead, release 4 challenger decks that contains cards only in standard, meant for people to be somewhat competitive at a local tournament.

Battle arena decks currently have one release per year, and are expanded legal. What do you think should happen?

Keep it as is?
Release more of them per year?
Discontinue them?
Change them all into Legendary Battle decks, but still releasing a set of 2 per year?
Change them all into Legendary Battle decks, but releasing a set of 2 multiple times a year?

What changing battle arena decks into legendary battle decks does is just split the decks into individual products, rather than buying 2 decks at once, and the decks don't have to be tied together in terms of being built to beat the other deck.

The Black Kyurem vs White Kyurem battle arena deck could have been released as a Black Kyurem legendary battle deck, and a White Kyurem legendary battle deck. Likewise, TPCi could have released a Ho-oh vs Lugia battle arena deck containing the decks that are from what we know as the Ho-oh and Lugia legendary battle decks.

Do you think the battle arena decks, and by extension, legendary battle decks, should be standard legal instead of expanded legal, considering the MTG equivalent is also going to be standard legal?

 

[Cheach]

I think it should be standard legal.

I think it'd be easy to make a relatively competitive beginner deck for Standard local leagues/tournaments - obviously not ripping a top-10 regional deck haha. You could easily make a Tapu-Koko Deck or something along those lines.

That's my humble opinion anyways

 

[MarshalBry]

I like them as they are; they show Expanded decks that are helpful for people wanting to get into Expanded, but still feature lots of key Standard trainer cards for that too.

 

[signofzeta]

I like them as they are; they show Expanded decks that are helpful for people wanting to get into Expanded, but still feature lots of key Standard trainer cards for that too.

One option was discontinue the battle arena decks, and instead, release legendary battle decks. Do you think that should happen?

Battle arena decks are 2 legendary battle decks glued together, or you could say 2 legendary battle decks are one battle arena deck cut in half.

Black kyurem's half of the battle arena deck and the Lugia legendary battle deck is probably no different in how they are constructed.

MTG discontinued their duel decks, so I am asking if you are ok if Pokemon TCG released the 2 decks as separate decks for $20 each instead of 2 decks for $40?

I am cool with VS decks, but only if they cost $20. $30 is stretching it, and $40 is going too far. With the way they are doing the battle arena deck packaging nowadays, and the fact that they just HAD to show 3 card through the packaging, mind as well split the decks, discontinue the battle arena deck, and change them into legendary battle decks. That, or go back to releasing $30 battle arena decks with significantly smaller packaging.

 

[MarshalBry]

One option was discontinue the battle arena decks, and instead, release legendary battle decks. Do you think that should happen?

Battle arena decks are 2 legendary battle decks glued together, or you could say 2 legendary battle decks are one battle arena deck cut in half.

Black kyurem's half of the battle arena deck and the Lugia legendary battle deck is probably no different in how they are constructed.

MTG discontinued their duel decks, so I am asking if you are ok if Pokemon TCG released the 2 decks as separate decks for $20 each instead of 2 decks for $40?

I am cool with VS decks, but only if they cost $20. $30 is stretching it, and $40 is going too far. With the way they are doing the battle arena deck packaging nowadays, and the fact that they just HAD to show 3 card through the packaging, mind as well split the decks, discontinue the battle arena deck, and change them into legendary battle decks. That, or go back to releasing $30 battle arena decks with significantly smaller packaging.

Ohh okay, you mean like the 3 plasma bird decks. I honestly like them more, though I liked that the bigger ones came with alternate artwork cards. If they'd do them with that, I'd be pretty much satisfied anyway; though I did prefer that the older, bigger ones had decks with actual strategy to them (ie rayeels, keldeo/blastoise) and not just "hey here's some random X type and colorless plasma cards".

 

[signofzeta]

Ohh okay, you mean like the 3 plasma bird decks. I honestly like them more, though I liked that the bigger ones came with alternate artwork cards. If they'd do them with that, I'd be pretty much satisfied anyway; though I did prefer that the older, bigger ones had decks with actual strategy to them (ie rayeels, keldeo/blastoise) and not just "hey here's some random X type and colorless plasma cards".

Basically, instead of a Keldeo vs Raquaza battle arena deck, for example, it would be a Keldeo Legendary Battle Deck, and a Rayquaza battle arena deck. I don't mind buying 2 decks for $30, but for $40, I'd rather give the buyer an option to buy one deck for $20, or both decks for $40 instead of making them pay $40 when they probably want one of the 2 decks. The battle arena deck loses its touch when they are just 2 legendary battle decks glued together, like with the case of Black Kyurem and White Kyurem decks. The first 3 decks had a "VS" in its packaging denoting that they are supposed to be played against each other, but the latest Black Kyurem and White Kyurem do not have this "vs", as if they are 2 legendary battle decks packaged into one giant packaging.

Do you know what's sad? 2 legendary battle deck packaging are smaller than 1 battle arena deck packaging, the new one, not the old one. At the time of Keldeo vs Rayquaza battle arena deck, I would even think to split them apart, but when they came up with the stupid idea to significantly increase the price and size of packaging, I had thoughts that maybe they should be split.

Ok, I lied. I had this thought that battle arena decks should be discontinued, and in place, release them as legendary battle decks because WOTC is discontinuing the Duel Decks for MTG, and replacing them with challenger decks.

TPCi should test the waters for standard legal legendary battle decks. Only one release per year, and each release gives you 2 decks to choose from.

 

[Sheimeix]

I think something similar to what YuGiOh does would be great. The set-based starter decks right now are almost useless, even if you buy a couple extra to focus in on what deck you're playing (IE buying two Kommo-o decks to focus on Kommo-o). YGO has starter decks, and then 'Structure Decks' which are similar to starter decks, but they follow a theme and have a strategy behind them with card synergy in mind. In them, you can buy a couple copies of the deck, take out the junk and mess with the amounts of which cards you have, and then have a somewhat tournament playable deck that easy. In fact, a couple of these decks have been high-tier tournament topping decks after some modifications and additions (Monarchs and ABC Dragon Buster come to mind).

I feel that Pokemon could do something like this pretty easily. Like, release a mono-fighting deck with Lycaonroc GX, Buzzwole GX (maybe), and then for a filler line, something along the lines of a Machamp (non-GX) line? Or, maybe something less of a major meta deck, like a Gyarados GX deck with cards that focus on having stadiums in play.

As for what format they would be released in, I would say they *should* be released in Expanded. I prefer Standard myself, but a Gyarados GX deck should tooootally run Delinquent. Besides, if you're buying two or 3 of the deck, it should be pretty easy to get rid of the Expanded cards and keep the Standard cards. On that note, though, there should be a little 'Deck Tips' pamphlet in the packaging that has a deck list that details which cards are Standard, and which cards are Expanded. It could also detail a few cards to look for to add to the deck- for example, it would say:

"Look out for Lusamine! After you use Gyarados GX's Draconic Disaster attack, you can use Lusamine to get your Brooklet Hill back from the discard pile and be ready for the next turn!"

IMO, these would be MUCH better than the starter decks, and way more fun to use. To not ruin the value of GX cards that come in packs, they could make it so either the GX card(s) in the deck just aren't holo, or price these decks at a slightly higher price point if they keep the Holo GX cards. A higher price point could also justify adding the dice and poison/burn/GX counters from ETBs, and possibly even deck-themed sleeves!

Hey, PTCi, hire me, I'm ready to start whenever

 

[Attix]

I think something similar to what YuGiOh does would be great. The set-based starter decks right now are almost useless, even if you buy a couple extra to focus in on what deck you're playing (IE buying two Kommo-o decks to focus on Kommo-o). YGO has starter decks, and then 'Structure Decks' which are similar to starter decks, but they follow a theme and have a strategy behind them with card synergy in mind. In them, you can buy a couple copies of the deck, take out the junk and mess with the amounts of which cards you have, and then have a somewhat tournament playable deck that easy. In fact, a couple of these decks have been high-tier tournament topping decks after some modifications and additions (Monarchs and ABC Dragon Buster come to mind).

I feel that Pokemon could do something like this pretty easily. Like, release a mono-fighting deck with Lycaonroc GX, Buzzwole GX (maybe), and then for a filler line, something along the lines of a Machamp (non-GX) line? Or, maybe something less of a major meta deck, like a Gyarados GX deck with cards that focus on having stadiums in play.

As for what format they would be released in, I would say they *should* be released in Expanded. I prefer Standard myself, but a Gyarados GX deck should tooootally run Delinquent. Besides, if you're buying two or 3 of the deck, it should be pretty easy to get rid of the Expanded cards and keep the Standard cards. On that note, though, there should be a little 'Deck Tips' pamphlet in the packaging that has a deck list that details which cards are Standard, and which cards are Expanded. It could also detail a few cards to look for to add to the deck- for example, it would say:

"Look out for Lusamine! After you use Gyarados GX's Draconic Disaster attack, you can use Lusamine to get your Brooklet Hill back from the discard pile and be ready for the next turn!"

IMO, these would be MUCH better than the starter decks, and way more fun to use. To not ruin the value of GX cards that come in packs, they could make it so either the GX card(s) in the deck just aren't holo, or price these decks at a slightly higher price point if they keep the Holo GX cards. A higher price point could also justify adding the dice and poison/burn/GX counters from ETBs, and possibly even deck-themed sleeves!

Hey, PTCi, hire me, I'm ready to start whenever

I should mention that Japan gets theme decks with GX's in them. Selfish bastards

I read an article somewhere saying that the reason that's the way it is is because in Japan, it's a collectible card game, whereas here and elsewhere it's explicitly a TRADING card game, which totally changes the market direction of the cards here in the U.S. Most people outside of Japan who collect the cards don't actually play the game, they just treat it as extra little merchandise to go along with their video games (which, of course, is the series bread-and-butter). Because of the TRADING aspect, there's more incentive to make the GX's artificially worth more by NOT including them in the theme decks.

 

[Sheimeix]

I should mention that Japan gets theme decks with GX's in them. Selfish bastards

I read an article somewhere saying that the reason that's the way it is is because in Japan, it's a collectible card game, whereas here and elsewhere it's explicitly a TRADING card game, which totally changes the market direction of the cards here in the U.S. Most people outside of Japan who collect the cards don't actually play the game, they just treat it as extra little merchandise to go along with their video games (which, of course, is the series bread-and-butter). Because of the TRADING aspect, there's more incentive to make the GX's artificially worth more by NOT including them in the theme decks.

Thats a pretty fair point. Another point that could be made is just inherent to what the franchise is- YGO is a competitive cardgame above all else, while Pokemon is a video game series first and foremost.

Still, though, I can see them pricing the decks at ~$20 USD to justify having a guaranteed GX, extra play items or not. Hell, I can even see it being a twice a year or once a year sort of "premium collection" kind of thing for 30-40, if they include the GX cards as holos and have dice/counters/sleeves (and maybe even a playmat? :thonking.

I guess the World Championship decks sort of kind of but not really fill that niche. They're highly competitive decks, but...you can't play them in organized play. :/

EDIT:

Come to think of it, I can actually see this kind of printing money. Using that Gyarados GX deck as an example again, if you want to run a 4-4 line of it, then you'll need to buy 4 of the deck. Priced at 20, that's $80 for the (complete) deck, not to mention the fact that you're going to be adding in a couple Leles, N, Sycamore, etc... Sure you could just...buy 4 Gyarados GX for the cost of the deck on its own, buying a mostly premade deck with everything you need would be a lot more attractive to lots of people.

So although the games are classified differently and focused on differently, I feel like a semi-competitive deck series would be great in most ways, especially if they market it a little differently or just drive out the basic starter decks.

 

[Attix]

Thats a pretty fair point. Another point that could be made is just inherent to what the franchise is- YGO is a competitive cardgame above all else, while Pokemon is a video game series first and foremost.

Still, though, I can see them pricing the decks at ~$20 USD to justify having a guaranteed GX, extra play items or not. Hell, I can even see it being a twice a year or once a year sort of "premium collection" kind of thing for 30-40, if they include the GX cards as holos and have dice/counters/sleeves (and maybe even a playmat? :thonking.

I guess the World Championship decks sort of kind of but not really fill that niche. They're highly competitive decks, but...you can't play them in organized play. :/

EDIT:

Come to think of it, I can actually see this kind of printing money. Using that Gyarados GX deck as an example again, if you want to run a 4-4 line of it, then you'll need to buy 4 of the deck. Priced at 20, that's $80 for the (complete) deck, not to mention the fact that you're going to be adding in a couple Leles, N, Sycamore, etc... Sure you could just...buy 4 Gyarados GX for the cost of the deck on its own, buying a mostly premade deck with everything you need would be a lot more attractive to lots of people.

So although the games are classified differently and focused on differently, I feel like a semi-competitive deck series would be great in most ways, especially if they market it a little differently or just drive out the basic starter decks.

In practice, I've seen that the pricing of theme decks is rather arbitrary. I've seen the same deck go from $11-$19 depending on who's selling it. Same thing with most other products, such as booster packs. I wonder what affects the markup, aside from retailer preference.

 

[jessalakasam]

In practice, I've seen that the pricing of theme decks is rather arbitrary. I've seen the same deck go from $11-$19 depending on who's selling it. Same thing with most other products, such as booster packs. I wonder what affects the markup, aside from retailer preference.

MSRP. Pokémon give distributors their suggested retail prices. Then the distributors tell the sellers. A lot of sellers go lower than the MSRP to compete with others

 

[signofzeta]

I think a GX card should be in theme decks, not to make the deck better, but to give new players exposure to the GX mechanic. The GX card is to be exclusive to the deck, and is to be slightly weaker than the GX cards you pull from booster packs.

Do not do anything to the theme deck that would raise the price over $15. There should always be a preconstructed product under $15.

There should also be some sort of pyramid where the cheaper the MSRP is for a preconstructed deck, there more different precons there are at that price point. What I personally hate, as a precon collector, is to have, let's say, 4 $15 precons to choose from, and 8 $30 ones to choose from. So far this hasn't happened yet, in MTG, Pokemon, and Yugioh.

All Yugioh precons are $10 MSRP. They only have 40 cards instead of 60, so it would have been $13 if it had 60 cards. Pokemon Theme Decks and their MTG counterparts both sold that much, before WOTC decided to include boosters in their preconstructed decks. I am saying this for MTG's Planeswalker Decks, and Pokemon's Theme Decks. Someone should just buy nothing but theme decks, and still be able to build a decent deck out of it. Theme decks, Planeswalker Decks, and even Yugioh's Starter Decks should not be useless once you have played with them once.

Which of these 2 scenarios would you prefer?

2 Theme Decks per set, like it is right now, and a 1 set of 2 legendary battle decks per year focusing on standard,

or

1 Theme Deck per set, with 1 of the GX cards from the set, the worst one, included in the deck, and is exclusive to the deck, and two sets of 2 legendary battle decks per year focusing on expanded?

All I hope for is that the Pokemon TCG needs to have preconstructed decks at 2 or more price points, not just theme decks like they have in the past.

I have 4 rules that Pokemon Company needs to follow with preconstructed decks.

1. No preconstructed deck product with a single deck should cost $40 or more MSRP.

2. No preconstructed deck is to be built to win more than 25% of the matches in a league tournament.

3. There shall always be a preconstructed product that cost $15 or less.

4. The cheaper the MSRP, the more options to choose from.

I also have a 5th one. Do not make the packaging ridiculously huge.

 

[Attix]

Which of these 2 scenarios would you prefer?

2 Theme Decks per set, like it is right now, and a 1 set of 2 legendary battle decks per year focusing on standard,

or

1 Theme Deck per set, with 1 of the GX cards from the set, the worst one, included in the deck, and is exclusive to the deck, and two sets of 2 legendary battle decks per year focusing on expanded?

All I hope for is that the Pokemon TCG needs to have preconstructed decks at 2 or more price points, not just theme decks like they have in the past.

I don't know what the Pokémon TCG's playership is (is that data somewhere? Bonus points if someone finds it), but I would imagine it all comes down to business decisions and making money. PTCG has enough playership in is home country, and enough of that playership in comp, for them to do stuff like this, but probably not enough in this country relative to our larger population and more spread out logistics for this to make sense from a profit perspective (I'm not an economics expert, but I would imagine this is the case). This is why America didn't have Club Nintendo for a long time.

Another thing is that "the worst GX" is a little subjective. All GXs are meant to be very powerful, of course, but in a card game as old and vast as Pokémon and with so many cards out there, even within the constraints of Standard it can be nigh-on impossible to predict what a GX's impact on the metagame is going to be given the cards already present (even after extensive playtesting, since that's just a few people's strategies versus a few thousand's), or how it will be affected by future expansions. For instance, NXD Shiftry wasn't banned until Forest of Giant Plants was introduced several sets later and put its ability over the top by allowing for use on the first turn for auto-wins (although to this day I wonder who within QC thought Lysandre's Trump Card was a good idea). And in all likelyhood, Tapu Lele GX probably wasn't envisioned as the near-mandatory early-game Swiss Army Knife that it's used as, just a decent supporter GX that can heal teammates and deal decent damage.

All I'm saying is that, unless something is clearly broken/useless, it's hard to say what cards will be the best and worst. A better idea for a theme deck that includes a GX is one which may turn out "good" or "bad," but which is instead designed to be easy to use and understand for new players to help them get accustomed to the mechanic. For example, a powerful GX attack with no other effect, similar to Z-Moves in the games, or which has a strong but easy to understand ability (for example, "This Pokémon takes 30 less damage from attacks after applying weakness/resistance).