What is Equality?

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#1weavile

I'm still alive =)
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***Due to my last thread being locked, I would only like people with enough words to back up your ideas, no 1 line sentences anymore, thanks ***

I was reading the book Anthem by Ayn Rand and the world in there is a dystopia, which is the opposite of utopia. This means that they have a collective society and exhibit altruism. All the citizens there work for their society. Everyone their is equal. They never use the words I, me, mine, or my until the end of the book.

My question is: Is everyone really born equally?

I would think that this would depend on your definition of equality, but how does the government was everyone to be born equally, and which equally are they thinking about?

My next question is: Can a dystopia ever exist outside of literature?

That would be, that there would be nothing to look forward to. You wake up, you work, you go home, you sleep. You repeat this for the rest of your life. You MUST think the same way as everyone else and look the way. The main character in Anthem, was mistreated because he was tall. They also punished him for being smarter. Everyone would be equal in a dystopia, also. Everyone has the same personal items and the government tries to limit your brain power to "dumb" you down to let you be equal. It is less expensive to give everyone a cheap car than to give everyone a really new and expensive car.


So, as you answer these questions, keep the information in mind, and that no spam or one line responses are allowed anymore. Have fun!!
 
Impossible. The human nature denies equality. We demand to be different, whether we say otherwise or not. You can't convince everyone that everyone can be equal. You're asking millions to give up so much for many others that probably doesn't deserve it.

And on the Ayn Rand comment, Upton Sinclair's The Jungle easily destroys her whole ideology. Actually, Hobbes does a better job, and Voltaire is just as good.
 
Zyflair said:
Impossible. The human nature denies equality. We demand to be different, whether we say otherwise or not. You can't convince everyone that everyone can be equal. You're asking millions to give up so much for many others that probably doesn't deserve it.

And on the Ayn Rand comment, Upton Sinclair's The Jungle easily destroys her whole ideology. Actually, Hobbes does a better job, and Voltaire is just as good.
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The government could just force us all to all be equal, or exterminate us if we don't. The government agrees and says that "All men are created equally." Again, I guess it depends on your definition of equality.

I'll need to pick up those books, because I like the idea behind it all.
 
The government also says that discontent people could also overthrow government.

Besides, there are several people in power OUT of government, so it's much harder than it sounds for now.
 
#1weavile said:
The government could just force us all to all be equal, or exterminate us if we don't. The government agrees and says that "All men are created equally." Again, I guess it depends on your definition of equality.

I'll need to pick up those books, because I like the idea behind it all.
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...what you are suggesting is equal to the atrocities against humanity that Hitler committed, or even the iron grip that Stalin had on his people. Everyone was treated the same (supposedly) and if you didn't like it you were shot. -_-

In all honesty, there is no equality. Genetics and human nature both rule this out. I am not equal to someone born with a defect in their legs when it comes to running speed. So physical equality can never exist.

And then there's human nature which screws with everything. We all want to be better than everyone else. This is our nature. Equality cannot exist with this nature.
 
For your first question, equality is a very funny word. If we are all equal, then by what standards are we equal? There will always be people who will have some sort of bias towards others, and even if we all got along, in what way would we be equal? Would there be a compromise?

ANYWAY, from a religious viewpoint, yes, everybody is born equally. From a logical viewpoint, equality, like respect, is something you earn. I could choose to treat an individual a certain way based on their skin color, sexual preference, or what kind of music they listen to. Or I could form an opinion on them based on their actions and if they do enough to earn my respect, I will treat them however I want to be treated. That's kind of a shaky example but you get my point. If people want to be treated equally, they'll have to fight for the right to.

As for your second question, anything can exist. It just depends on us as a society to want to bring something into existence. Science-fiction always makes life seem great if we can just band together and do something, but humans aren't meant to do that. Humans are supposed to have differing opinions. It's what makes the world go round and what keeps us from going crazy.

The government could just force us all to all be equal, or exterminate us if we don't. The government agrees and says that "All men are created equally." Again, I guess it depends on your definition of equality.
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You mean the government would force us all to act a certain way, and kill us if we don't? That is no longer a democracy. The Constitution also says we have a right to free speech, and while I don't condone such actions, if one person views another person as inferior based on their skin color that is their choice and they have a right to think that. Everyone has their own opinion on how the government should be run, and if you're thinking that's how it should or could be run, you're not thinking equally. They'd treat those who don't want to follow their rules differently than those who would want to follow them.
 
Also keep in mind that if the government went out and started forcefully enforcing equality it's not like everyone would magically become equal; they would be equal in one sense, that the government forces them to be seen as equal, but they wouldn't actually be equal if that makes sense. Physical and mental defects along with psychologically ingrained prejudices would still exist, it's just that you'd be killed for recognizing them.

You also ask whether a dystopia would be possible outside of fiction; there have been several real life dystopias. The term "unperson" from 1984 either comes from Soviet Russia or Soviet Russia got it from the book, depending on whom you ask. Other examples of real-life dystopias are Communist China under Mao Zedong and Cambodia under Pol Pot.

Next, to be pedantic, the Constitution states that "all mean are created equal", not "equally". As an American history buff it was something that bothered me a little. You also used the wrong there/their/they're sixth (second-to-last) paragraph of your post.

And finally, Ayn Rand's writing is never a good thing to base an opinion on.

(Zenith? Posting a serious reply in a debate topic? Zounds!)
 
If we were all equals then the world wouldn't be interesting to us and tons would commit suicide. Zyflair said it best: We have to be different for our own sake. Also I read somewhere that what you usually get mad at people for is a quality that you have. The point being, if we were equal, everyone would fight.
 
I just remembered something about the equality thing; read The Giver. That is full blown equality in a a jar. I like you would like that.
 
I have read that. Touching yet somehow depressing.... But I find everything depressing so what the heck.
 
Zyflair said:
I just remembered something about the equality thing; read The Giver. That is full blown equality in a a jar. I like you would like that.
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That is one of my favorite books of all time. I also enjoyed Into the Blue and Messenger, which are both essential sequels to it. Jonas with his blue eyes is mentioned in Into the Blue and then is an actual character in Messenger.
 
If our definition of equality is what you're talking about, then it really would be impossible. Human nature demands a difference in our personalities. There's absolutely no way a government can force people to think the same way and live in a dystopia. They don't have that power.

But if we're talking about a different kind of equality, then you might say that we're all made equal.
 
Right. None of us have power over each other (except your parents :D). But we keep saying "The human nature... Blahblahblah... The fact is that we always want to compete and improve and that is why we can't be equal.
 
Read animal farm :)

Equality is when everyone is equal. What more is there to say?

Really don't see much discussion value here, what weavile said just reminded me of communism, stalin, trotsky, and communism. Like:

The government could just force us all to all be equal, or exterminate us if we don't.
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Yeah... stalin much?
 
Go Read Harrison Bergeron. THAT is true equality.

Equality is being equal in every way. I.e. 5 is equal to x if x == 5. I am equal to you if we are clones of each other. Equality is unobtainable in its current state. If we ever reach it, will it have been worth it?
 
he was a dictator, if you read the communist manifesto you know that stalin took something good and twisted it to his belief system. only half of what the Russian communist's did was of communist belief the rest was stalinism (thats why they call it stalinism not communism). equality is like anything else, we just have to make it for ourselves, weather it is mathematical, scientific, political, or idealized it is just and idea a thought, weather we make thing's equal is an idea that we can think or do. cya

P.S. Russian's = stalinism, communism = equality. world war 2 was an example of what happens when dictator's get control of a neutral idea. also I think America is a power hungry fiend and the same goes for Russia (i live in canada and find that our needy leadership system is sicking, were independent people with a suck up government system that treats America like it's it's big older brother that it should keep on confiding in, if you disagree prove me wrong).
 
"All animals are created equal, but some are more equal than others."

I think of it kinda like this. It makes sense when you think real hard about it.
 
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