What is the Logic Behind the Energy for Dragons?

Pikachu6319

Pikachu6319

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I would think I'm not the only one who looks at the energy requirements for dragons and wonder where they come from. I myself have put quiet a good amount of thought into that. I have drawn some opinions about that and am eager to hear what others think. Be warned this is kind of long.

M. Charizard (X) EX: 2 fire, 1 dark and 2 colorless. Well we already know colorless is anything. But where does the dark come from? My theory is that it's an homage to this http://pokebeach.com/media/Charizard-star-d-EX-Dragon-Frontiers-100.jpg

Dratini/Dragonair/Dragonite(EX): They all work around lightning and grass. Though the flying version weaks and resists respectively, there is another idea I have (a recurring theme be aware now) My theory is that's an homage to http://pokebeach.com/media/Dragonite-d-EX-Delta-Species-3.jpg bar steel and http://pokebeach.com/media/Dragonite-ex-d-EX-Dragon-Frontiers-91.jpg. though originally it used water, electric and even fighting energy in E-series era. Of course my Delta Species theory doesn't hold true for all dragons as evidenced by...

Kingdra: They work around water and electric. Neither Delta Species Kingdra were electric, they were in fact fire/steel and fighting. The water seems obvious given its other typing but where does electric come from? Is this a reference to its water weakness maybe? Or something else?

Vibrava/Flygon (EX): They all work around grass and fighting. The latter may be obvious as a reference to its other game type. The former could be an homage to http://pokebeach.com/media/Flygon-d-EX-Holon-Phantoms-7.jpg again bar steel (a problem with most Delta Species Pokémon). Why this one and not http://pokebeach.com/media/Flygon-ex-d-EX-Dragon-Frontiers-92.jpg? There is the slight ripple that when Flygon was colorless it would tend to be lightning and grass.

Altaria: They work around water and steel. While I'm not sure where the steel comes from I believe the water is an homage to http://pokebeach.com/media/Altaria-ex-d-EX-Dragon-Frontiers-90.jpg although Delta Species Swablu was also water which might dampen this theory a little. It's also worth noting that when originally making it dragon Altaria used water and electric. As for what this means for the eventual Altaria EX and M. Altaria EX? My guess is the same unless they want to make it a fairy type instead.

Bagon/Shelgon/Salamence(EX): They all work on fire and water, and they have actually all worked on these two types from this Pokémon's introduction in EX Dragon. I'd like to say they are on homage to http://pokebeach.com/media/Salamence-d-EX-Delta-Species-14.jpg and http://pokebeach.com/media/Salamence-ex-d-EX-Dragon-Frontiers-98.jpg and perhaps the dragon ones are but when one takes into account this line has used fire and water since its inception, well I guess it becomes anyone's guess.

Latias(EX): This Pokémon uses fire and psychic. The latter maybe a reference to one of its types. The other I suspect is a homage to http://pokebeach.com/media/Latias-d-EX-Holon-Phantoms-11.jpg. Of course Latias was also electric/steel. Before being gold a couple of Latias used fire, psychic and water as well. I expect M. Latias EX will follow this trend, as also evidenced by...

Latios(EX)/M. Latios EX: This Pokémon uses water and psychic. Like Latias I think the latter is a type reference while the other could be a homage to http://pokebeach.com/media/Latios-d-EX-Holon-Phantoms-12.jpg. Latios use to use water, electric and psychic energy on a couple versions prior to being made gold.

Rayquaza(EX)/M. Rayquaza EX: This Pokémon uses fire and electric, with the exception of Rayquaza C Lv. X
which used water, psychic and fighting. Although I like to think a large part of that is homage to http://pokebeach.com/media/Rayquaza-d-EX-Holon-Phantoms-26.jpg and http://pokebeach.com/media/Rayquaza-ex-d-EX-Dragon-Frontiers-97.jpg. The fact other Rayquaza's used it before hurts this belief. It's also worth noting that delta species gave Rayquaza a water/steel one as well. Finally of note is this is the last dragon who can use the Delta Species idea.

Gible/Gabite/Garchomp(EX): They use water and fighting. I believe the latter is a reference to one of it's types. Is the former a reference to one of its game weaknesses ice? Or something else?

Dialga EX: This dragon uses psychic and steel. The latter is a reference to its other type. Is the former a reference to the fact in game it resists psychic and is immune to poison? Note there is no regular version yet though I bet it would follow this trend.

Palkia EX: This dragon uses water and grass. The former is again an alternate type reference. The grass on the other hand. I'm stumped here. Note there is no regular version yet though I bet it would follow this trend.

Giratina EX: This dragon uses psychic and grass. The former is again an alternate type reference. Like Palkia, I'm stumped on the other one. Note there is no regular version yet though I bet it would follow this trend.

Arceus: No dragon yet. I wonder which energies it would use. Dark and steel?

Axew/Fraxure/Haxorus: This dragon line uses steel and fighting. I have no idea why here. Thoughts?

Druddigon: This dragon uses water and fire. Again no idea why, thoughts?

Deino/Zweilous/Hydregion(EX: This line uses dark and psychic. I believe the former is a reference to its alternate type. The latter could be a reference to its immunity.

Reshiram/Zekrom: Both dragons use fire and electric. I think this could be a link to each other, being two thirds of a trio. Neither have dragon EX's yet.

Kyurem: This dragon uses water and psychic. The former I believe the former is an alternate type reference. As for the latter I have no idea. Thoughts? Kyurem has no dragon EX yet.

Black Kyurem(EX)/White Kyurem(EX): Both use water (one type) while black uses electric for Zekrom and white uses fire for Reshiram.

Dragalgae: This dragon use water and psychic. The latter I think is a reference to its alternate type. I think the former is a reference to its basic form Skrelp.

TyrantrumEX: This dragon uses fighting and steel. The former I think is an alternate type reference. Is the latter a weakness reference? Though w e don't have a Tyrunt or regular Tyrantrum yet but I bet it follows this pattern.

Goomy/Sliggoo/Goodra: This line uses water and fairy. Seems to me they're both references to this Pokémon's video game weakness. Or maybe water is a reference to how it needs to evolve to Goodra?

Noivern: First, there is no Noibat despite it being dragon too. This one uses dark and psychic. Not sure why, thoughts?

Zygarde: None yet. Fighting and grass maybe?

Again sorry for the long post. What are your thoughts about this, or am I the only one who puts this much thought into the reasons behind this?
 
This is an interesting compilation.

I like thinking about mixed stuff like this because it does show that the TCG likes to do a few throwbacks.

Also, a good theory for Tyrantrum's Fighting/Steel cost is because, in an obscure/theoretical way - Tyrantrum and Aegislash are Parallels.
Both of them are designed by Hitoshi Ariga (Well known for his work on the Mega Man Manga)
Both of them share a Shiny theme together because of this. For those who don't play Mega Man - Tyrantrum's Shiny uses a palette similar to the Star Force Mega Man Palette while Shiny Aegislash uses his rival - Rogue's Palette. Both of them can represent the Dinosaur (Saurian) and the Blade (Zerker, the Mu tribe Rogue seems to hail from), a theme found in the second Star Force game. Star Force, unlike other Mega Man games - was exclusive to the DS family. This is likely why that colour scheme was chosen for both their Shiny palettes.

for Zygarde I'm thinking it might be Dark/Fairy to sort of reference Xerneas and Yveltal.
 
I thought the Energy costs generally reflected the main colors of each Dragon, e.g. Dragonite is gold/green and has Lightning and Grass energy, Altaria is blue/gray and has Water and Metal, Salamence and Druddigon are red/blue and have Fire/Water, etc. Obviously pre-evolutions retain the same Energy costs for playability reasons which is why Dratini doesn't use Water, etc. They mostly stuck to the same setup when they picked the Delta types for each Pokemon back in the day, too.
 
Frost said:
I thought the Energy costs generally reflected the main colors of each Dragon, e.g. Dragonite is gold/green and has Lightning and Grass energy, Altaria is blue/gray and has Water and Metal, Salamence and Druddigon are red/blue and have Fire/Water, etc.
Click to expand...

Yeah this, even when they were colourless they used this idea during and after Expedition

Dratini uses water and lightning, as they make purple
Salamence was fire and water
Rayquaza gets fire and lightning due to its detailing
 
That logic doesn't always hold though. Neither Reshiram nor Zekrom have red or yellow. Kyurem has no purple.

When Altaria was just colorless it used water and electric, not steel. Dragonite had some fighting energy in its requirements too.
 
You are correct to look at older cards, but don't just fixate on the other Types of a Dragon (be they TCG or video game) or on Delta Species versions. Instead go back even further: the Dragon-Type is a recent addition to the game, only a few years old. Yes, a few years is "recent" for a game that is approaching 16 and a half (it can finally get its Driver's License in the U.S.A!). XD

When the game began, Dragon-Types were all Colorless Pokémon and... not too impressive. Most were fortunate to lack a Weakness and/or still have Resistance. Much of the time their attacks were poor because they had Colorless Energy requirements and at the time it was easier to spot the template used for pricing attacks. The short version is that [X] (where "X" is any non-Colorless Energy requirement) originally yielded 15 points of damage where as a [C] requirement gave 10. Damage could be "exchanged" for an effect (remember we are talking about design, not in game play). Other factors also appears to add or subtract from the damage yield: Stage (including whether further Evolution was possible) as well as other aspects of the card all mattered. Sometimes they may have simply chosen to round up or down to the next/previous increment of 10, but it may have just always been due to one of the aforementioned factors. If this is unclear, I can post and work through a few examples.

Getting back to Dragons, so the early ones were only working with [C] requirements, which may have made them flexible for what Energy they could use but meant they were always "investing less" compared to something with [X] requirements. A Stage 2 with an attack that cost [CCCC] was working with 40 damage, plus whatever "bonus" it might have received for being a fully Evolved Pokémon... even by the time we got to the point where you weren't crazy for running a Stage 2 Pokémon. A Stage 2 of another Type with [XXXX] requirements (four Energy of its own Type), especially after Double Colorless Energy was gone, would be doing 60 plus Evolution bonuses (50% more damage before said bonuses). This made it really awkward for the designers as unless they had a really good idea... Stage 2 Colorless Pokémon in general were bad (and at the time, that was pretty much all Dragons).

Jump forward to the time of Gen III. The decision was made to make the Dragon-Type more distinct and to do that they introduced Colorless Weakness and Resistance into the game, as well as giving them not only specific Energy requirements, but usually using two (sometimes "opposed" Types). This gave Dragon-Types their own distinctive niche, but also made it awkward in that the super-splashable Colorless-Type Pokémon could thump them hard. Still they stuck with it for a while until seemingly reverting to the old way, but that was likely to set-up for the introduction of the actual Dragon-Type during the BW-era. There is no basic Dragon-Type Energy (even though the even more recent Fairy-Type got one) so it appears they wanted to keep the distinct "beyond natural" feel of Dragon-Types, giving them often opposed elemental pairs for Energy (and setting up for Blend Energy GRPD and Blend Energy WLFM).

Water/Fire - Obvious opposites, though remember its also "Ice" versus Fire as well.
Grass/Lightning - Grass can be thought of as "earth" while "Lightning" is often symbolic of the heavens.
Grass/Psychic - Again you can have the mundane "earth" and the "beyond" of the "astral plane" or ghosts, or perhaps its Bugs Vs Psychics (relevant to the video game taxonomy) or Grass and Bugs and Poison-Types (a strange relationship - so many Pokémon and real world examples of insects and plants with toxins, but both they themselves and humanity use chemicals to try and control Grass and Bugs)
Metal/Fighting - Here I am not sure. XD Might be "primitive" (Fighting being barehanded and rock weapons) versus advancing technology (metal tools and weapons). Could be an example of diverse things that oddly belong together (Ground/Rock being part of Fighting while Steel is Metal).
 
TokenDuelist said:
This is an interesting compilation.

I like thinking about mixed stuff like this because it does show that the TCG likes to do a few throwbacks.

Also, a good theory for Tyrantrum's Fighting/Steel cost is because, in an obscure/theoretical way - Tyrantrum and Aegislash are Parallels.
Both of them are designed by Hitoshi Ariga (Well known for his work on the Mega Man Manga)
Both of them share a Shiny theme together because of this. For those who don't play Mega Man - Tyrantrum's Shiny uses a palette similar to the Star Force Mega Man Palette while Shiny Aegislash uses his rival - Rogue's Palette. Both of them can represent the Dinosaur (Saurian) and the Blade (Zerker, the Mu tribe Rogue seems to hail from), a theme found in the second Star Force game. Star Force, unlike other Mega Man games - was exclusive to the DS family. This is likely why that colour scheme was chosen for both their Shiny palettes.

for Zygarde I'm thinking it might be Dark/Fairy to sort of reference Xerneas and Yveltal.
Click to expand...

Now that you say it, Tyrunt has that Mega Man ring to it
 
Well then I think it's past time for them to reprint the blend energy cards which lost competitive placement last rotation when Dragons Exalted did. Perhaps Prism energy should be reprinted as well.

Otaku I think I understand what you're saying but I think an actual example would still be nice to see if you have the time to do so. Oh, at sixteen years tcg could get its learners permit but not its license. It would need 40 hours of experience first, at leasr where I live. :)
 
Pikachu6319 said:
Otaku I think I understand what you're saying but I think an actual example would still be nice to see if you have the time to do so.
Click to expand...

Okay... I know I am the one that offered and I'm not weaseling out of it (yet =P) but can you be more specific. Are you wanting Dragon examples, general pricing scheme examples, etc?

Pikachu6319 said:
Oh, at sixteen years tcg could get its learners permit but not its license. It would need 40 hours of experience first, at leasr where I live. :)
Click to expand...

I assumed the Pokémon TCG had taken Driver's Ed. I have gotten behind on the requirements, however as may have had my license by the time the Pokémon TCG came out. XD
 
I guess whatever you feel more comfortable with, either dragon examples or a general example. I suspect some of those numbers could easily apply to any number of Pokémon after all.

Slightly off topic here, but I got my license before there was any new requirements appeared to get it, but my understanding now is that a person first get a learner's permit and then have to have 40 hours of experience driving with a licensed individual with at least I think ten of those hours at night before actually going through the test for a drivers license. This assumes that an individual started this when they turned sixteen. I mainly know this because this is what my sister had to go through.
 
Pikachu6319 said:
Slightly off topic here, but I got my license before there was any new requirements appeared to get it, but my understanding now is that a person first get a learner's permit and then have to have 40 hours of experience driving with a licensed individual with at least I think ten of those hours at night before actually going through the test for a drivers license. This assumes that an individual started this when they turned sixteen. I mainly know this because this is what my sister had to go through.
Click to expand...

I see. When I was a teenager, you could get your "learner's permit" at age 14 (the entire point of it was to make it legal for you to operate the vehicle while a sufficiently older driver was with you to offer supervision). At age 15 you could get a school permit - don't remember if it required anything. If you took Driver's Ed (a paid extra curricular course that included I think everything else you mentioned) and passed (I think it also required you get at least a "C") then at age 16 you could take the exam to try for your driver's license. If you didn't take Driver's Ed then you had to wait until you were 18.

Pikachu6319 said:
I guess whatever you feel more comfortable with, either dragon examples or a general example. I suspect some of those numbers could easily apply to any number of Pokémon after all.
Click to expand...

So just to start things off, let us look at
Dragonite-Fossil-4.jpg


For the record, at the time the at this time, being a Stage 2 was as bad or worse than it is right now but we'll just be looking at attack pricing structure. I won't even be comparing it to another card in this post (and will address it when the time is right). When the game began, the thing that made this a "Dragon" Type was the bottom stats: a perfect lack of Weakness, a useful Resistance (-30 was standard for Resistance back then) and while not due to being a Dragon-Type, a great single Energy Retreat Cost. The Pokémon Power (the original version of Abilities that do not count as Abilities for the purposes of Unlimited play) is create in its modern update: Step In is Rush In by another name. I can't remember if we thought it was good or not back then, but probably "not". So... what about the attack?

[CCCC] would buy 40 damage (10 per [C]). When there are coin flips, such as in this attack, you can think of it like "wagering" damage on the results. There are likely a couple ways to approach this, but for now I'll take the easiest; you paid for 40 and the mean (mathematical average) result is just that: 40. Two of four possible results are 40. One of four is whiffing for zero damage and the final one of four possible outcomes is 80 damage. In the end though, an average of the 40 damage for which the Energy cost paid.[/QUOTE]
 
I always thought it had to do with the type of the attacks since some DRAGON type moves use all colors of energy to use the attack. For instance a move that uses water would use blue probably a purple or grey energy card. For an attack with multiple colors such as some fire moves use red blue metal dragon and green or yellow energy since these attacks may or may not inflict a special condition like a burn or poison or paralisys.:)
 
In my opinion the types of the attacks would be like this:

Dratini, Dragonair and Dragonite: Water (Blue colour of Dratini and Dragonair, and all are Sea Dragons supposedly) and Lightning (Dragonite color). Why Grass instead of Water?
Kingdra: Water (its type and color) and Lightning (yellow chest). No problem.
Vibrava and Flygon: Fighting (its type) and Grass (its color). No problem.
Altaria: Water (its color) and Lightning (shiny color and cloudy relationship) or Fairy (Mega related). Metal? Stormy cloud may be? Hmmm...weird...Lightning would be a better option i think...(in BW Era).
Bagon, Shelgon and Salamence: Fire (Salamence color) and Water (Salamence and Bagon color). No problem.
Latias: Psychic (its type) and Fire (its color). No problem.
Latios: Psychic (its type) and Water (its color). No problem.
Rayquaza: Grass (its color) and Dark (its shiny color). Or Fighting (Groudon) and Water (Kyogre). But Fire (Sun of Groudon) and Lightning (Storm of Kyogre) may be its OK.
Gible, Gabite and Garchomp: Fighting (its type) and Water (color and Shark related). No problem.
Dialga: Metal (its type) and Water (its color). Psychic? Why?
Palkia: Water (its type) and Psychic (its color). Grass? WTF?
Giratina: Psychic (its type) and Dark (dark purpose and a little color). Or Water and Steel (Dialga and Palkia). Grass? WTF?
Axew, Fraxure and Haxorus: Steel (sharp Axe) and Fighting (well is not very strange for me). Its OK.
Drudiggon: Water and Fire (its colors). No problem.
Deino, Zweilous and Hydreigon: Dark (its type) and Psychic (its color). No problem.
Reshiram and Zekrom: Fire and Lightning (Both were one). No problem.
W and B Kyurem: Water and Fire/Lightning. No problem.
Kyurem: Water (its type) and Steel (its color). Psychic? Is a Pokémon "without soul" because is a empty shell, well... its weird...yes... but...uggg...its weird.
Dragalge: Psychic (its type) and Water (preevo's type). No problem.
Tyrunt and Tyrantrum: Fighting (its type) and Metal (Strong Jaw). No problem.
Goomy, Sliggo and Goodra: Water (Rain Evolution) and Psychic (its color). Fairy? Because its cute? Well...
Noibat and Noivern: Psychic and Dark (its colors). No problem.
Zygarde: Fighting (its type) and Grass (its color). Or Fairy and Dark (Xerneas/Yveltal). We weill see...
 
Pikachu6319 said:
That logic doesn't always hold though. Neither Reshiram nor Zekrom have red or yellow. Kyurem has no purple.

When Altaria was just colorless it used water and electric, not steel. Dragonite had some fighting energy in its requirements too.
Click to expand...

Reshiram is fire-type and has a (literally) blazing tail. Zekrom has an electrical generator instead. Don't know about Kyurem though, but having only one anomaly makes it good enough as a theory.
 
Reshiram is fire and has a blazing tail. So why does it use lightning energy too? It could have been something else though I don't know what since colorless already has a placement there and all dragon types have two types of energy before including colorless.

Zekrom is lighting and has an electrical generator like tail. So why does it use fire too? If we want to color scheme it should have been dark (a dragon energy type combo we haven't seen yet by the way).

The only technical explanation I can think of there is because of the whole yin/yang aspect the game seems to build up with them and that's a paper thin reasoning in my opinion. If someone has a better explanation I'd be interested, otherwise I still say it's a three part anomaly.
 
Pikachu6319 said:
Reshiram is fire and has a blazing tail. So why does it use lightning energy too? It could have been something else though I don't know what since colorless already has a placement there and all dragon types have two types of energy before including colorless.

Zekrom is lighting and has an electrical generator like tail. So why does it use fire too? If we want to color scheme it should have been dark (a dragon energy type combo we haven't seen yet by the way).

The only technical explanation I can think of there is because of the whole yin/yang aspect the game seems to build up with them and that's a paper thin reasoning in my opinion. If someone has a better explanation I'd be interested, otherwise I still say it's a three part anomaly.
Click to expand...

I believe the most reasonable idea behind Zekrom/Reshiram is that they were two-halves of a whole. They were both the same Pokemon at one point, and therefore it fits that they match each other. Their non-dragon typing is Fire and Lightning when put together. Thus - their Dragon-Type Energy Requirements make the most sense.
 
As I had thought, the yin/yang aspect of the two. Again I happen to think it paper thin but I can see why they would make that decision.
 
Pikachu6319 said:
As I had thought, the yin/yang aspect of the two. Again I happen to think it paper thin but I can see why they would make that decision.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I think its the opposites aspect. There aren't exactly a lot of opposite-end dragons in the TCG anyways, so we can't test the theory to either side. Though I think it does apply to these two, as they were once one and the same.
And, as you pointed out, if Reshiram couldn't use colorless, then they had to abandon the whole color scheme thing altogether (for Zekrom as well). Though that means that any future Dragon Pokémon who happens to have a color scheme not matching one of the TCG type colors would run into some trouble too.
 
it's pretty much what Frost said... If the Dragon is a pure Dragon-type or a Dragon/Flying, they choose 2 types based on the final stage pokémon's color scheme of its evolutionary line. If the Dragon has a secondary elemental type, they use that corresponding tcg type, and another one, also usually based on the pokémon's color scheme... Obviously, there are exceptions...
Reshiram and Zekrom, being Yin/Yang, make sense to have the same energy cost, their secondary typings...
Rayquaza is still based on its color scheme but they use the lines covering its body as a basis instead of the actual body color...

Some I still don't get why they there were chosen and honestly, they feel completely random or they were chosen to not repeat the same combinations over and over again... I'm talking mainly about the Creation trio and Kyurem, which are the ones that confuse me the most...

- Kyurem has Water, since it's part Ice but then has Psychic... no idea why, Metal or Dark would fit it better, I think...
- Giratina has Psychic/Grass... no ideia why Grass, maybe because of its vaguely centipede appearance (bugs -> Grass)... Actually, the most obvious reason was to abuse the Blend Energy GFPD (which IMO, was a poor concept. They should have done Double Dragon Energy right away)... Metal would fit it better (Platinum and its Grey body) and at the time, that combination hadn't been used yet, instead it was used on:
- Dialga has Metal/Psychic while Palkia has Water/Grass... Why Psychic wasn't chosen for Palkia is weird (as it has a pink/purple coloration), but as I noted, there was already Latios, and the above Kyurem using the Water/Psychic combination... I have one theory that since Giratina was released before the other two, and it is the third in the trio, they may have decided to give Dialga and Palkia the Psychic and Grass energy costs of Giratina, respectively, as a reference... They could have done the same thing they did now with Reshiram/Zekrom and give Water/Metal to both as a reference to their duality... but as would be the case with Kyurem if it had Water/Metal, they would be repeating that combination a lot, since Altaria already uses Water/Metal...
But it's kinda contraditory when you consider they didn't mind repeating the Fire/Water combination of Salamence with Druddigon, Dark/Psychic for Hydreigon and Noivern, and Fighting/Metal for Haxorus and Tyrantrum... This last one makes the least sense to me... Tyratrum has that white/silver beard and coat, but most of its body is a tone of red. There was the opportunity of having a new combo with Fighting/Fire and they wasted it.

At the end, I think we'll always be left to wonder what goes through the heads of the PCL's staff...
 
I think the grass type of girantina comes from it looking like a bug same with flygon. Latios is blue so it needs water energy and Latias is red so it uses fire.
 
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