Pokemon Which aspects characterise Dragon-type Pokémon?

[zappy800]

True but moves given to it are not based on the name just on if they think it should learn it. Besides popular dragons are generally just fire breathing lizards that can fly so both of charizards types make sense. True dragon makes sense but it isn't needed for the pokemon.

Sorry but I absolutely f******' hate when people come up with that because it has to be the most flawed argument ever!

The "fire breathing lizard that can fly" part only applies to European dragons, usually. The Dragon-type doesn't cover only European dragons...
But even if it did, besides Charizard, the other pokémon (not counting legendaries) that are based on European dragons for the most part are Dragonite, Salamence and Druddigon (besides the gargoyles).

Druddigon doesn't even fly. But Dragonite and Salamence do fly and are dragons, they can even use Fire-type attacks (that covers the "spit fire" part).

Going by the "logic" of that argument, all these pokémon should be Fire/Flying and the dragon-type wouldn't need to exist at all!

Add the legendaries to the mix and we have Zekrom and Kyurem as the legendaries that resemble European dragons the most. These are not like Dragonite or Salamence as in even though they can fly, they already have a specific element linked to them which also rules out the "dragons spit fire" stereotype and makes them not Flying-type.

And then there's Reshiram... which despite all those feathers and canid-like head, is pretty much an european dragon too. And guess what? It is Fire-type. It's a Dragon/Fire Pokémon. But like the others of its trio, Reshiram is also capable of flying. Again, according to that argument, why isn't Reshiram Fire/Flying then?

Because there can be Dragon-types that can also be Fire-types as well, even if they fly!

When GF has to choose between 2 out of three possible types for a pokémon and one of those types is Flying, they will almost always leave Flying out. Flygon is Ground/Dragon with Levitate, Hydreigon is Dark/Dragon with Levitate too. Again, the Tao Trio are Dragon/[Correspondent type] and don't even have Levitate even though they can fly. The doesn't happen only with Dragon-types. It also happens with those Bug/Poison pokémon that fly like Beedrill or Dustox or even the Bug/Fire Volcarona...

If Reshiram can be Dragon/Fire and not even have Levitate, so can Charizard. And I know they're not gonna change Charizard, but like I said the other day, with Mega Evolution, they can do that now to the hypothetical Mega Charizard. That's what I'm hoping for, that's all this is about.

I was saying that was what the real world european dragons are. I knew charizard was the only one that really fit that. Besides even if he got a dragon mega it wouldn't be worth it Blaziken would still be a better choice competitively.

 

[Mitja]

The type doesn't prevent Pokemon from exceling in the other types. It simply shows which element is supposed to be more prominent.

Charizard, Salamence, Reshiram.
They are all dragons (Dragon) that can fly (Flying) and breathe fire (Fire). But since their actual types are limited to 2, they only get 2, and a different combination each
The Fire type is not crucial AT ALL to Salamence, unlike the whole backstory about wanting to fly and succeeding (hence Dragon +Flying),
while being able to fly isn't an important aspect of Reshiram, as it is known and referred to as a legendary dragon (unlike the DPt mascots for example) and as being part of a trio of them, they of course each get their own extra element to focus on (hence Dragon +Fire).
And Charizard... Fire is obviously it's main association (it is THE Fire starter), while the other big thing about it is that it gains flight capability (wings) out of nowhere upon its final evolution.
That results very simply in Fire/Flying. It still gets a bunch of Dragon moves, and it IS clearly a dragon. It's just not Dragon type.

So in short, its all about priority for those cases.


Now the question is how do we spot Dragon-type in the opposite case? Not when there is an overkill of 5 different fitting clearly obvious types and priority decides, but when Dragon gets slapped onto something in a minor role.
Because that's what the Mega Ampharos case is.

 

[Metalizard]

Whilst this is a very good point, I'm pretty sure Reshiram doesn't have Levitate because it's not fully airborne. Most Pokemon that have Levitate we only see flying/levitating, there are a couple of exceptions (Eelektross, Flygon is debatable).
Most legendaries can fly or levitate regardless of type or ability. Saying that since Reshiram has the ability to fly so it should have Levitate, then it also follows that Dialga and Palkia should have Levitate since it has the ability to leave the ground. Heck, you could even say that since Mewtwo's Mega form is permanently levitating, then that should be a Psychic/Flying or have Levitate.
The Tao Trio all learn Fly, so the connection to them with Flying is there. They aren't Flying type because they don't have Flying type powers (apart from Fly), and they don't have Levitate because they aren't fully airborne. (I'm not sure if there's something somewhere that mentions how long they can stay in the air for)

No? I can assure you that the whole Tao Trio are fully airbone (with the exception of Normal Kyurem maybe). Just see the movies. They're not like Dialga and Palkia which, in the same way as Mewtwo use some sort of telekinetic power to fly around and you see that aura around them when they do it (at least with Dialga and Palkia, I remember). You don't see that with the Tao Trio because they do have wings (a key characteristic for their airbone body structure) and that's what they use to fly. And not only they learn Fly, they also learn Roost. In the opposite direction, they can't learn Earthquake.
So, they don't have Levitate because they're not fully airbone. They don't have Levitate because GF decided to give them signature abilities instead (that showcase their overdrive modes).

Speaking of Levitate. In some cases, Levitate is given to those pokémon who actually levitate (meaning float above the ground). In other cases, Levitate is given to those pokémon who could be Flying-types but already have 2 main types given to them, which is what happens with Flygon and Hydreigon. This doesn't always happen though because as I mentioned before, the Bug/Poison pokémon like Beedrill (or Volcarona which is Bug/Fire) but could also be Flying-type, don't have Levitate even though they can clearly Fly.

 

[professorlight]

I was going to say that about levitate in an effort to leave everybody happy: levitate can be either a functional flying type without STAB and weakness (flygon, etc) or represent floating but not flying (gastly, etc). I think a better way to tell if a pokemon flies or not is if they learn roost.

The charizard issue is tricky... it is inspired in a dragon, but it also came in gen I, that time when GF hadn't fully developed their guidelines and inner logic: if it's true that the dragon type was created specifically for the dratini family, then they didn't even consider it as a possibility for charizard, and it was too late to change the design.
And in a battling environment of 150 pokemon, with more than 1/3d of the players (who I'm I kidding? 2/5ths. Nobody but me chose poor bulbasaur) having and using charizard, who was already pretty strong, imagine what that thing could have done with neutral damage from water and ice, double resistance to fire and grass, and only a weakness to ground (just dig and earthquake), rock (rock throw and avalanche) and dragon (dragon rage, useless). Charizard would have been unstoppable until now, with the addition of the fairy type, So it's very likely it's megaform will be fire/dragon with levitate, now that dragon is't so overpowered and the alternatives for pokemon and moves are more.

 

[Flys Gone 2071]

Gyarados would be terribly broken if it would only have 1 weakness (dragon rage) back on Gen 1 plus it being really powerful. I'm pretty sure that Gyarados won't be as OP as it would be Gen 1 nowadays. I believe they should change Gyarados into a Dragon type now that it has counters and Dragon Pokemon can counter Gyarados.

For Charizard its different. It would have the advantage over the other starters. It would still have so it would be unfair at the beginning but after the league, you have a good team to be able to fight Charizard so a mega-Charizard is what they should do.

 

[Mitja]

The charizard issue is tricky... it is inspired in a dragon, but it also came in gen I, that time when GF hadn't fully developed their guidelines and inner logic: ...

They would not have given it a different type if it was introduced in gen 5.
Because it is about FIRE before anything else. As a starter its job is basically to be like the main representative of this type.
And gain FLYING because the main point of interest in the design change Charmeleon->Charizard is that it grows huge wings. I mean it learns Wing Attack the moment it evolves, not Dragon Rage because it became more draconic.

The Mega Charizard is the only realistic option, but I kinda doubt even that will get it Dragon.
If its wings catch fire or something and it goes on rage mode I would totally approve switching out the type (also note we only have 1 example, and it GAINS a type, so who knows if they even feel okay with changing a type for Megaevolutions at this point). Just a hairdo while retaining the current design, then they'll keep it Flying.
We'll see what they do with it.

For Charizard its different. It would have the advantage over the other starters.

So what if it resists other starters STAB moves.
Empoleon has no Grass weakness. If they feel okay giving Steel out of all things to starters like its no big deal, then Dragon wouldn't be a problem either.
Its not like the common painful Ground and Rock weakness go away too just because the Water weakness is neutralized.

 

[King Xerneas]

For Charizard its different. It would have the advantage over the other starters.

So what if it resists other starters STAB moves.
Empoleon has no Grass weakness. If they feel okay giving Steel out of all things to starters like its no big deal, then Dragon wouldn't be a problem either.
Its not like the common painful Ground and Rock weakness go away too just because the Water weakness is neutralized.

But that's nowadays, when dragon types can be dealt with properly. In Gen I, Charizard with a dragon typing would've been a bit OP until Gen III or IV....

 

[Mitja]

So what if it resists other starters STAB moves.
Empoleon has no Grass weakness. If they feel okay giving Steel out of all things to starters like its no big deal, then Dragon wouldn't be a problem either.
Its not like the common painful Ground and Rock weakness go away too just because the Water weakness is neutralized.

But that's nowadays, when dragon types can be dealt with properly. In Gen I, Charizard with a dragon typing would've been a bit OP until Gen III or IV....

What are you talking about?

I don't see how something with a Rock and Ground weakness was OP back in gen I, or now.
These are literally the 2 strongest types of offensive moves in the game.
And both have had a viable move available as TM since the beginning (Rock Slide/Earthquake) which has just gotten wider ever since.

 

[King Xerneas]

But that's nowadays, when dragon types can be dealt with properly. In Gen I, Charizard with a dragon typing would've been a bit OP until Gen III or IV....

What are you talking about?

I don't see how something with a Rock and Ground weakness was OP back in gen I, or now.
These are literally the 2 strongest types of offensive moves in the game.
And both have had a viable move available as TM since the beginning (Rock Slide/Earthquake) which has just gotten wider ever since.

I never said it'd be OP now. I clearly stated that nowadays anything with a dragon type can be dealt with as there are much more moves now than there was before. It wasn't until gen II that we got any REAL offensive dragon moves. In Gen 1 though, anything with a dragon typing was basically a Pokemon blessed with incredible power. Because of this, it was a good thing Gyrados never got the dragon typing.

 

[Mitja]

But that's nowadays, when dragon types can be dealt with properly. In Gen I, Charizard with a dragon typing would've been a bit OP until Gen III or IV....

What are you talking about?

I don't see how something with a Rock and Ground weakness was OP back in gen I, or now.
These are literally the 2 strongest types of offensive moves in the game.
And both have had a viable move available as TM since the beginning (Rock Slide/Earthquake) which has just gotten wider ever since.

I never said it'd be OP now. I clearly stated that nowadays anything with a dragon type can be dealt with as there are much more moves now than there was before. It wasn't until gen II that we got any REAL offensive dragon moves. In Gen 1 though, anything with a dragon typing was basically a Pokemon blessed with incredible power. Because of this, it was a good thing Gyrados never got the dragon typing.

Yes you did. I put it in bold for you.
And no idea how you missed the part that I was talking about gen I as well.

I said it would not be any OP, as it would be weak to the two best offensive types in the games.

So again, explain what would have been OP about that, because I don't get it.

Heck one could argue that Fire/Flying was a better combination in comparison to Fire/Dragon, especially when Stealth Rock doesn't exist.
Defensively (Ground immunity is way more useful than a bunch of resistances) AND offensively since Dragon STAB was useless anyway.

 

[King Xerneas]

I never said it'd be OP now. I clearly stated that nowadays anything with a dragon type can be dealt with as there are much more moves now than there was before. It wasn't until gen II that we got any REAL offensive dragon moves. In Gen 1 though, anything with a dragon typing was basically a Pokemon blessed with incredible power. Because of this, it was a good thing Gyrados never got the dragon typing.

Yes you did. I put it in bold for you.
And no idea how you missed the part that I was talking about gen I as well.

I said it would not be any OP, as it would be weak to the two best offensive types in the games.

So again, explain what would have been OP about that, because I don't get it.

Heck one could argue that Fire/Flying was a better combination in comparison to Fire/Dragon, especially when Stealth Rock doesn't exist.
Defensively (Ground immunity is way more useful than a bunch of resistances) AND offensively since Dragon STAB was useless anyway.

First of all, I wanted to address my statement because I felt like you ignored it (sorry if you didn't ignore it, it just felt like you did). Plus I said in Gen I, not now as in Gen V beyond. With flying it had not only more weaknesses, but a 4x weakness. Yes, I'll give you that an immunity to ground types is useful, but compensates for not being weak to water or electric. Especially in Gen I when the only moves that could've been a possible threat to Charizard are rockslide, earthquake, and MAYBE even dig. This is a bit off topic, but with a dragon typing its movepool would've been much wider and could've become a bigger threat by being able to learn other elemental moves like electric or something... Anyways, it could've been as OP as the psychics and ghosts. Yet, it would've been knocked out of its OP status in Gen II with its weakness being much more exposed.

 

[Mitja]

First of all, I wanted to address my statement because I felt like you ignored it (sorry if you didn't ignore it, it just felt like you did).

I quoted a specific part because I was responding to it. I didn't quote the rest because it wasn't the part where I encountered a problem.

Plus I said in Gen I, not now as in Gen V beyond.

Again, I was talking GEN 1 too.

With flying it had not only more weaknesses, but a 4x weakness. Yes, I'll give you that an immunity to ground types is useful, but compensates for not being weak to water or electric.

Yes, compensates. (Instead of being an obvious win as you made it seem)
Essentially, the choice is between having an immunity or fewer weaknesses.

Especially in Gen I when the only moves that could've been a possible threat to Charizard are rockslide, earthquake, and MAYBE even dig.

Blastoise must have been godly then, since the only real threat is Thunder/Thunderbolt (and Solarbeam but thats easy to avoid), not to mention actual bulk (Charizard can be taken out by neutral stuff easier simply due to lower defenses)

This is a bit off topic, but with a dragon typing its movepool would've been much wider and could've become a bigger threat by being able to learn other elemental moves like electric or something...

No it wouldn't.
Kingdra doesn't suddenly learn a bunch of elemental moves or anything, it still had a typical Water movepool with a few Ice moves here and there, before and after. Its movepool doesn't change IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER from gaining Dragon.

It would have lost its second STAB (since Dragon STAB is useless in gen I)
But its not like it learnt Fly before Yellow.

@_@

 

[Ohman177]

I'd just like to say that I don't think you guys will get anywhere if you count flygon. He is in my opinion the only obvious mess up on GF's part. They got too hung up on the word "DRAGONfly" even though it's technically a completely different animal from the ant lion. I think it probably had something to do with bad english and not enough research. But it was too late to change the trapinch line because a final form changing has simply never happened ever.
For those still confused I will now describe what I think was going on in the mind of the unknown designer:
"Hmm ok I need an antlion. Easy enough, easy enough. I'll probably make the line Ground/Bug. Yeah Ground/Bug will make sense. Basic form, done. Ok ok, says here that they change once they grow into this thing with wings. Ok ok cool, I'll give that levitate. Now what.... S*it I was told to make a three stage pokemon based off the ant lion. Where do I go from here.... gahhh..... OH WAIT. THIS SAYS THAT ANOTHER WORD FOR ANT LION IS DRAGONFLY! Perfect! I'll just integrate in some dragon features! But wait.... now I have a line of Ground/Bug pokemon that randomly develop dragon features. What to do! I don't have time to split this into 2 different lines. OH I KNOW! I'll replace the whole line's Bug type with the Dragon type so it seems like that was my intention all along! It was going to just be the secondary type any way so no big deal!"
As you can see the terrible atrocity occurred when he wondered onto the website that either said Dragonfly is another word for ant lion or that dragonflies are similar and read it incorrectly.
While that's all speculation, it makes sense and is the only explanation I can think of. So just think of Dragons as anything that looks reptilian, has a reptilian/dragon name (legit one, not like DRAGONfly lol), and/or is based off of/inspired by some kind of reptile/dragon (real or fake). Just leave flygon out of it.

 

[zappy800]

I'd just like to say that I don't think you guys will get anywhere if you count flygon. He is in my opinion the only obvious mess up on GF's part. They got too hung up on the word "DRAGONfly" even though it's technically a completely different animal from the ant lion. I think it probably had something to do with bad english and not enough research. They probably realized where they went wrong later on and tried to amend it by creating an actual dragonfly pokemon, yanma/yanmega. But it was too late to change the trapinch line because a final form changing has simply never happened ever. For those still confused I will now describe what I think was going on in the mind of the unknown designer:
"Hmm ok I need an antlion. Easy enough, easy enough. I'll probably make the line Ground/Bug. Yeah Ground/Bug will make sense. Basic form, done. Ok ok, says here that they change once they grow into this thing with wings. Ok ok cool, I'll give that levitate. Now what.... S*it I was told to make a three stage pokemon based off the ant lion. Where do I go from here.... gahhh.... OH WAIT. THIS SAYS THAT ANOTHER WORD FOR ANT LION IS DRAGONFLY! Perfect! I'll just integrate in some dragon features! But wait.... now I have a line of Ground/Bug pokemon that randomly develop dragon features. What to do! I don't have time to split this into 2 different lines. OH I KNOW! I'll replace the whole line's Bug type with the Dragon type so it seems like that was my intention all along! It was going to just be the secondary type any way so no big deal!"
As you can see the terrible atrocity occurred when he wondered onto the website that either said Dragonfly is another word for ant lion or that dragonflies are similar and read it incorrectly.
While that's all speculation, it makes sense and is the only explanation I can think of. So just think of Dragons as anything that looks reptilian, has a reptilian/dragon name, and/or is based off of/inspired by some kind of reptile/dragon (real or fake). Just leave flygon out of it.

Firstly I'm not bashing if you think that. Second yanma is gen 2. Third I am pretty sure dragonflies and antlion's are in the same family group. Also they probably don't choose what they want to make before the start designing how would you explain Gastrodon and Shellos being made for gen 3 then being ditched until gen 4. That is all.

 

[Ohman177]

I'd just like to say that I don't think you guys will get anywhere if you count flygon. He is in my opinion the only obvious mess up on GF's part. They got too hung up on the word "DRAGONfly" even though it's technically a completely different animal from the ant lion. I think it probably had something to do with bad english and not enough research. But it was too late to change the trapinch line because a final form changing has simply never happened ever.
For those still confused I will now describe what I think was going on in the mind of the unknown designer:
"Hmm ok I need an antlion. Easy enough, easy enough. I'll probably make the line Ground/Bug. Yeah Ground/Bug will make sense. Basic form, done. Ok ok, says here that they change once they grow into this thing with wings. Ok ok cool, I'll give that levitate. Now what.... S*it I was told to make a three stage pokemon based off the ant lion. Where do I go from here.... gahhh.... OH WAIT. THIS SAYS THAT ANOTHER WORD FOR ANT LION IS DRAGONFLY! Perfect! I'll just integrate in some dragon features! But wait.... now I have a line of Ground/Bug pokemon that randomly develop dragon features. What to do! I don't have time to split this into 2 different lines. OH I KNOW! I'll replace the whole line's Bug type with the Dragon type so it seems like that was my intention all along! It was going to just be the secondary type any way so no big deal!"
As you can see the terrible atrocity occurred when he wondered onto the website that either said Dragonfly is another word for ant lion or that dragonflies are similar and read it incorrectly.
While that's all speculation, it makes sense and is the only explanation I can think of. So just think of Dragons as anything that looks reptilian, has a reptilian/dragon name (legit one not like DRAGONfly lol), and/or is based off of/inspired by some kind of reptile/dragon (real or fake). Just leave flygon out of it.

Firstly I'm not bashing if you think that. Second yanma is gen 2. Third that whole theory is full of crap. I am pretty sure dragonflies and antlion's are in the same family group. Also they probably don't choose what they want to make before the start designing how would you explain Gastrodon and Shellos being made for gen 3 then being ditched until gen 4. That is all.

Then you simply ignore the part about yanma and yanmega and it still makes sense so hush now you dont know anything for sure and i clearly said it was speculation.

Edit: I edited my original post to fit to your appreciated point which I wasn't aware of so why don't you edit your attitude.

 

[zappy800]

Firstly I'm not bashing if you think that. Second yanma is gen 2. Third that whole theory is full of crap. I am pretty sure dragonflies and antlion's are in the same family group. Also they probably don't choose what they want to make before the start designing how would you explain Gastrodon and Shellos being made for gen 3 then being ditched until gen 4. That is all.

Then you simply ignore the part about yanma and yanmega and it still makes sense so hush now you dont know anything for sure and i clearly said it was speculation.

Edit: I edited my original post to fit to your appreciated point which I wasn't aware of so why don't you edit your attitude.

I am sorry I didn't mean to offend you I was trying to point out flaws in your theory. Also I meant that your theory could be true but it probably wasn't.


Edit: Also your theory does technically make sense I just don't believe it. Although I am difficult to convince.

 

[Ohman177]

Then you simply ignore the part about yanma and yanmega and it still makes sense so hush now you dont know anything for sure and i clearly said it was speculation.

Edit: I edited my original post to fit to your appreciated point which I wasn't aware of so why don't you edit your attitude.

I am sorry I didn't mean to offend you I was trying to point out flaws in your theory. Also I meant that your theory could be true but it probably wasn't.

"Third that whole theory is full of crap" -.- you're right how could I be offended by that? Especially when it has nothing to back itself up besides a small misinformation that isn't even important to the theory. The bottom line is that flygon is an obvious exception to the rule, whether purposeful or accidental, and we shouldn't include it in our discussion about what characterizes dragon types.

 

[zappy800]

I agree I went a little overboard I will change that.



Edit: done

 

[Frezgle]

Let's keep the discussion civil, guys. You can criticize each others' arguments without being rude. d:

In Flygon's case, I think that they wanted two types of dragonfly Pokemon - one family to be faithful to real-life dragonflies (Yanma/Yanmega), and one to use the "dragon" part of the dragonfly's name.
(Even though antlions and dragonflies aren't actually the same thing...)
That's the only way I can make sense of it.

 

[zappy800]

Let's keep the discussion civil, guys. You can criticize each others' arguments without being rude. d:

In Flygon's case, I think that they wanted two types of dragonfly Pokemon - one family to be faithful to real-life dragonflies (Yanma/Yanmega), and one to use the "dragon" part of the dragonfly's name.
(Even though antlions and dragonflies aren't actually the same thing...)
That's the only way I can make sense of it.

Sorry about that I went overboard with what I was saying and caused the problem. Also I personally can believe your theory but why not also make Megayanmega a dragon type for that in gen 4.