Why make unplayable cards?

M

Minty88

Aspiring Trainer
Member
Hey everyone. I have been playing the video games (ev training, online battles, and junk) for a long time, but just recently got into the TCG

Some of my friends tricked me into going to the BW prerelease, lol

I'm having alot of fun with this game, and it doesn't hurt to have a GF that likes it too.

My real question though, is about the newest set (black-white). Really I have two questions.

1. why are these cards so strong? I understand WHY they are so strong. a basic with 130 HP and a 120 attack for minimal energy investment and enough support to allow them to use the attacks on T2 (if not T1 for zekrom). What I really mean, is why were such over-centralizing cards released? For example, Reshiram is like a better version of Typhlosion HS (non-prime), which makes that card basically useless, unless maybe you run, 4-3-3/1 in your Typhlosion-Reshiram deck.... but that doesn't seem practical.

2. I guess that brings me to the bigger question. Why so many useless cards? I was talking to a friend of mine that plays magic the gathering, and he was basically telling me that just about every card in magic has some use, you just have to find it, but in Pokemon....

Swoobat BW
Meganium HS/CoL
Ursurang HS/CoL (non-prime)
Blissey HS (non-prime)

Not to mention TONs and TONs of really cool cards that are unusable because of there HP numbers. Two cards on my mind like this are Grumpig and Banette from TM. You could combo Grumpig with Pichu HS. You could combo Banette with Cheerleader's Cheer. Mismagius CoL is a cool card as well, but only 80 HP on a stage 1 is just HORRIBLE.

You would think that maybe its all just a shift to a higher HP meta-game, but that is pretty obviously not the case, since Stage 2 pokemon don't have 180+ health, but generally fall somewhere near the dragons. So why use stage 2 when you get more bang for you buck, and space in your deck by using dragons and the few stage 1's that have a little bit of staying power (Donphan, Yanmega-ish).

Is it just because the Pokemon company wants us to use the new cards over the older one? or is it a lack of care for the diversity of the metagame?

What is it that I'm missing here? Dont get me wrong I love the game, and wouldn't hesitate to make a deck with Banette TM and other cards, just because its fun. But it really sucks that basically ANY deck that can't OHKO the dragons basically can't work, and cant be taken seriously.

If this belongs in another forum, please move it :)

-Minty
 
RE: Reshiram and Zekrom.... also Emboar.

Answering question one, you stated the reason why Reshiram is better than Typhlosion (non-Prime). Reshiram is a Basic Pokemon with that much 130 HP and does 120 damage. Getting a Basic out is much faster than getting out a Stage-2, considering all you have to do is just play it from your hand. In order to get a Stage-2 out, you have play the Basic, wait a turn, and then you have the opportunity to evolve. You also remember space issues. With Reshiram, being a completely different line, lets you run four copies of your main attacker. Typhlosion, on the other hand, you have to run at least two Typhlosion Prime, which means you have to run two copies of your attacker. Lastly, Reshiram has a better first attack.

Answering question two, using the Pokemon you listed, they are all considered bad cards for a reason. While it is cool that you can prevent your opponent from attacking during his or her next turn, it's only on a coin flip. Since Swoobat has only 80 HP, doesn't do any damage at all when using Attract, and only blocks an attack 50% of the time, it's not really a great card. Also, your opponent could play Switch out of the effect.

Meganium isn't good, because, sadly, Grass types are not that popular due to Reshiram hitting them for weakness. Ursaring and Blissey also suffers the same fate, as Donphan hits them for weakness.

While I'm not seeing where you're going with Grumpig/Pichu, the reason why Banette sees no play is because of Cheerleader's Cheer's effect. "Your opponent may draw a card." Once your opponent sees Banette, they shouldn't draw a card just to reduce damage. Besides, Banette has low HP (80), and for two Energy (counting Double Colorless Energy) you actually won't be doing a lot of damage since your opponent can get rid of the cards in his or her hand quickly.
 
RE: Reshiram and Zekrom.... also Emboar.

Yeah, I understand all of that. What I was getting at is WHY cards like meganium and swoobat are even released in the first place. They are clearly terrible. Why not print something useable instead?

Also on that matter.... Why did weakness go from +10, +20, or +30 to X2?




Edit:

Oh... and the Grumpig/pichu this was just some crazy random thing off the top of my head, the idea is that pichu would fill their bench and then they gotta flip for the whole bench with bench manipulation on turn 2 (with proper set up). If grumpig had like 130 HP this might actually be a decent strat, hitting for up to 200 damage on turn two (average 80-120 damage)
 
The Answers to "Why make unplayable Cards"

- For collectors
- For more focused game play and strategies
- To make cards more valuable and to eventually make more money
 
^every little kid at league has a deck with reshiram and zekrom, and no swoobats, lol, I think they can grasp the concept of how the game works without having to print stage 1's with less than 110 HP

and as for collector's value, Maybe i'm missing the point here, but wouldn't they be just as collectable with lower energy costs and high HP, and thus ultimately more exciting as cards...

am i missing something?
 
There are two reasons that I see that Pokemon releases 'unusuable' cards:

1) They can't just have all good cards. Eventually, there will be so many decks to choose from that the metagame will be a complete mess. Let's just say, for example, that Triumphant only gave us cards equivalent in power and speed as Yanmega Prime. Well, that gives us roughly 80-90 or so powerful cards to choose from, all on different Pokemon with different stages and types. (Numbers based off that every Pokemon is usuable, even random basics like Magnemite) And that's only one set. If we had every legal set just filled to the brim with good cards, then we'd have over 600 cards, and therefore decks, to choose from. Wouldn't that seem a bit overwhelming?

2) Some cards are good. They just need a card to go with them. For instance, take Pachirisu [CL]. It was originally not a bad card, but it topped at maybe $2. Then, with the release of Zekrom, it really sped up the deck, thus creating a combo, and that made Pachirisu good. And it jumped to $20. Bottom line: some cards just need other cards. Plus, it leaves some room for experimentation. I just found a combo with a rather worthless card with the release of another card from an upcoming set (Kept secret for now, as it is my "secret" deck). The card has always been a low card, but the release of the new card will help it. So, without my long rant, it could be kept to a simple: "Every card is good, you just need to look at it that way."
 
I dont think the Pachurisu example is a good one though. from its initial release it had uses. Magnezone Prime, Riachu Prime, probably other stuff. Just because it is SUPER-meta now with zekrom, doesn't really show that everthing will come into its own in time. There will NEVER be a combo for swoobat. it doesn't have an Ability, body, power or anything. its just a complete waste of paper/plastic. It could have been something useful if it had had any kind of Ability. But a card with nothing special, just a flip defensive attack and a vanilla 40 damage attack.... just horrible

At least from the start Pachi had SOMETHING.

The same could be said for any of the other sad cards mentioned.

Also, on the other note, I would much prefer a metagame with more options and more deck archetypes. It wouldn't mean chaos, it would just mean diversity, and ultimately more room for individuality and probably fun.
 
RE: Reshiram and Zekrom.... also Emboar.

Minty88 said:
Yeah, I understand all of that. What I was getting at is WHY cards like meganium and swoobat are even released in the first place.
Click to expand...

Meganium had to be released. You can't have a set based on the Johto region and not have all 3 starters.
 
RE: Reshiram and Zekrom.... also Emboar.

Charganium said:
Meganium had to be released. You can't have a set based on the Johto region and not have all 3 starters.
Click to expand...

His point was why not make the Meganium decent, instead of the horrible card that no one would use that it is. Really, the reason Pokemon makes bad cards is money. If you could open a pack and get 10 cards equivalent in usefulness to Yanmega Prime, you wouldn't need to buy as many packs to get the good cards that you need, and that's less money for the people who make the cards.
 
RE: Reshiram and Zekrom.... also Emboar.

Dark Void said:
His point was why not make the Meganium decent, instead of the horrible card that no one would use that it is. Really, the reason Pokemon makes bad cards is money. If you could open a pack and get 10 cards equivalent in usefulness to Yanmega Prime, you wouldn't need to buy as many packs to get the good cards that you need, and that's less money for the people who make the cards.
Click to expand...


Idk, in MTG 90% of a set is typically useful and they still rake in major bank. Also not to mention their sets are always 200+ cards.
 
Minty, I totally hear you. Maybe it's because I'm new too but I've asked myself these questions often. It seems like the dragons kind of tipped the scales on what really is playable and cemented the one shot or die game.

I think Dark Void's answer is closest to the truth. They are in it for the money after all.
 
Yeah, they have to make some cards so that you don't buy 6 packs and have cards good enough to make a deck out of. They gain more money if there's a lower percentage of usable cards. Plus, with 100s of cards in-format, making every one playable would be ridiculous.
 
RE: Reshiram and Zekrom.... also Emboar.

Project696 said:
Idk, in MTG 90% of a set is typically useful and they still rake in major bank. Also not to mention their sets are always 200+ cards.
Click to expand...

I've actually heard that there's mostly unusable cards in MTG as well (possibly not as bad as Pokemon but still).

The real question is "why _not_ make unusable cards?". It's a win-win situation. They control what the meta becomes and reap the profits.

dmaster out.
 
RE: Reshiram and Zekrom.... also Emboar.

dmaster said:
I've actually heard that there's mostly unusable cards in MTG as well (possibly not as bad as Pokemon but still).

The real question is "why _not_ make unusable cards?". It's a win-win situation. They control what the meta becomes and reap the profits.

dmaster out.
Click to expand...


I play both MTG and Pokemon. And when it comes to MTG, it all depends on what format you're playing. Since you got Standard, Legacy (Unlimited), Commander/EDH, theres much more variety for cards to be used. While in standard a card my suck, in EDH or Legacy it may be much better. And unlike pokemon, they do hold Legacy and EDH tournaments from time to time. So thats where my position of saying 90% or so cards in MTG are usable.

And controlling the meta doesn't really help TPCi reap profits. It appears to me most good player tend to trade or buy single cards. Which when you buy single cards, the profits from those do not go to Pokemon since its on the 2nd market, something Pokemon has absolutely no control over.
 
I didn't say that the two were related. They still make money by selling the cards no matter how good or bad some of them are while also controlling which decks will be better than others. That's just simple fact.

dmaster out.
 
thats what i meant by making more profit.

making only a select cards playable creates a metagame based solely around those cards
thus distributors/vendors/retailers will make more money through the selling of those cards.

However, because Pokemon USA pre-sets the amount of Ultra-rares pullable from a box, retailers who want to sell more of the ultra rare cards must also buy more boxes from Pokemon USA, thus Pokemon USA still reaps more profits from highly sought after cards. its a small trickle up of profit, but it still exists
 
Pokémon suffers from the syndrome that 90% of all cards are nigh unplayable. I am not sure why, but I think it's a combination of lazyness, lack of inspiration, and greed. Usually the best cards are all rares/even rarer than rares.
 
RE: Reshiram and Zekrom.... also Emboar.

dmaster said:
I've actually heard that there's mostly unusable cards in MTG as well (possibly not as bad as Pokemon but still).
Click to expand...
That's incorrect. In MTG, there are many different formats. There is standard (like our Pokemon rotation), Limited (Drafts), Extended and Vintage and Legacy (basically using more sets than standard), and Multiplayer (Weird game types that Wizards actually endorse). Very few MTG cards are just bad. Take Mental Misstep for example. This card is nigh on unplayable in Standard. Very few decks let this card ever see play. In Legacy, however, this card is dominating the format. Now look at FangrenMArauder. This card was terrible in all formats except for Limited. In Limited, he is basically an archetype on his own. I would say the difference is that Magic has a testing team (R&D) that cares about the implication of every single card in all formats. Pokemon... we don't know if they even have a testing team. R&D thinks about the flavor of the cards and how good they are in each and every format of Magic. Part of the reason a card isn't just bad in magic is because of how many formats there are.


Pokemon has the issue of only one real format. Moreover, though, cards are very homogenized. What I mean by this is that cards basically do the same thing as eachother. The ones that don't are what make decks. You've seen the majority of abilities that get released... just with different numbers around them. The cards that are good are aggressively numbered (such as 120 HP on donphan or 120 damage from a Zekrom). With Pokemon, you can look at a card and say "that's bad" or "that's good". There are certainly cards that exit their roles as bad or good due to type advantage, but that is rare. Magic introduces new keywords and new mechanics nearly every set. Currently, the big key words and mechanics in block right now (only 3 sets) are Proliferate, Infect, Battle Cry, Phyrexian Mana, living weapon, and there is a theme about artifacts. That's only three sets!!! Those mechanics will be gone in about a year! Add to it the 5 other sets that make standard, and you'll have yourself a very unique format. In magic, you usually cannot point to a card and say that you've seen the exact effect before. Even changing the numbers around can really change a format. IMO, Pokemon needs set-based-mechanics that don't need an engine around them. SP as a mechanic was fine, but when you started adding the full cyrus engine, it felt almost unfair. Making new and interesting cards will allow for developers to continue making good cards without obsoleting any other cards. Even so, when you pop a Pack of Pokemon, all but one or two of the cards will be strictly bad. When you Pop a Pack of Magic, you're going to get a pack full of cards that can be decent in their own ways.
 
Minty88 said:
Hey everyone. I have been playing the video games (ev training, online battles, and junk) for a long time, but just recently got into the TCG

Some of my friends tricked me into going to the BW prerelease, lol

I'm having alot of fun with this game, and it doesn't hurt to have a GF that likes it too.

My real question though, is about the newest set (black-white). Really I have two questions.

1. why are these cards so strong? I understand WHY they are so strong. a basic with 130 HP and a 120 attack for minimal energy investment and enough support to allow them to use the attacks on T2 (if not T1 for zekrom). What I really mean, is why were such over-centralizing cards released? For example, Reshiram is like a better version of Typhlosion HS (non-prime), which makes that card basically useless, unless maybe you run, 4-3-3/1 in your Typhlosion-Reshiram deck.... but that doesn't seem practical.

2. I guess that brings me to the bigger question. Why so many useless cards? I was talking to a friend of mine that plays magic the gathering, and he was basically telling me that just about every card in magic has some use, you just have to find it, but in Pokemon....

Swoobat BW
Meganium HS/CoL
Ursurang HS/CoL (non-prime)
Blissey HS (non-prime)

Not to mention TONs and TONs of really cool cards that are unusable because of there HP numbers. Two cards on my mind like this are Grumpig and Banette from TM. You could combo Grumpig with Pichu HS. You could combo Banette with Cheerleader's Cheer. Mismagius CoL is a cool card as well, but only 80 HP on a stage 1 is just HORRIBLE.

You would think that maybe its all just a shift to a higher HP meta-game, but that is pretty obviously not the case, since Stage 2 pokemon don't have 180+ health, but generally fall somewhere near the dragons. So why use stage 2 when you get more bang for you buck, and space in your deck by using dragons and the few stage 1's that have a little bit of staying power (Donphan, Yanmega-ish).

Is it just because the Pokemon company wants us to use the new cards over the older one? or is it a lack of care for the diversity of the metagame?

What is it that I'm missing here? don't get me wrong I love the game, and wouldn't hesitate to make a deck with Banette TM and other cards, just because its fun. But it really sucks that basically ANY deck that can't OHKO the dragons basically can't work, and cant be taken seriously.

If this belongs in another forum, please move it :)

-Minty
Click to expand...

I'll just respond to the OP because I don't want to read everything lol.

If the whole set was amazing...they would loss money. Think if you get 2 Reshi in a pack and an Emboar and no things like Lilligant then you would have everything you need for a semi good deck in like...4 packs lol. They can't put a prime in every pack because that would ruin buying packs...badly lol
 
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