Will Gyarados survive?
- Thread starter Pokeman
- Start date
Pretty much. And you can't Impersonate a Collector, because then your opponent 'Zones those Karp with Hurl Into Darkness.
Does this mean it's confirmed Lost World is coming out? I haven't heard anything definitive yet.
Does this mean it's confirmed Lost World is coming out? I haven't heard anything definitive yet.
I know a guy who works for pokemon and says rhat lost world looks like it wont be coming out because the game would be broken and a lot of people will quit playing. It looks like lost world will not be coming out.
No, everyone would just run lostgar. thinking of new decks would be almost pointless
JUMPLUFF!!!!!!
That's WHY it would be a problem. There'd be nothing to compete with it. The only deck you can really use for it is LostGar; other ideas don't particularly work.
And one of its worst matchups, SP, will be gone too. Yippee.
And one of its worst matchups, SP, will be gone too. Yippee.
Lost World changes nothing. Lost Zone has always been a problem for Dos... it is just a fact. Lost World makes LostGar more popular... yes... but LostGar has trouble of being picky as to what hits the LZ. Sure they can snipe off your karp, but it will be neigh on impossible to ensure that the karp hits the bench. The only way I can see fit is Hunter + Honchkrow SV which is very unlikely. If a Dos player is handing Magikarp... they shouldn't be playing dos to begin with. They will always have a nearly full bench: plenty of stuff to sack to hunter. LostGar takes a turn to set up, so if a reasonable setup happens on both sides, it should look somewhat like this.
Dos: Open Sableye... collector for 2 magikarp and a regice or 3 karp
MewGar: Play some TSS, LZ Gengar
Dos: Play Karp and dos on bench. Discard a few magikarp. Maybe draw some cards and do some other stuff. If they are well off, OHKO first Mew.
See? In a relatively reasonable game, the Dos player will open a prize on T2 and have their Karps safely in the discard. Perhaps playtest before you come up with an absurd theory plz -_- I would say that Gyarados will actually do BETTER post set if we see everything we want. Post set, we will probably be a little less SP (always what happens if we see a playable set) which makes Dos players very happy.
Also guys, don't complain about Lost World. The card is 100% fair and balanced. Rather than complaining about it, go playtest a few games and see how fair it is. The deck is very build intensive... a bad build will ruin the deck. If "everyone" runs the deck, I'd jump for joy. That means less people to compete with for top tables and easier wins in rounds 1-2. SP's were "broken", but I didn't see people quitting because of them. I saw quite a bit of rage, but then it died down. People are so quick to cry when they see an alternate win condition. I'm willing to bet that 90% of the people who quit BECAUSE of LW being released have not played ten games with a real LW deck. The deck has been put massively through testing and is very difficult to build. Just keep playing guys -_- You will realize eventually that it is balanced. Some of the top players may play the deck, obviously. Top players will make what they touch turn to gold. If what they play is not good, they will not play it. The deck will win because, when built correctly, it can wreak havoc on the game, but it is still balanced. Like everything else, it will have reasonable win-loss records. Why don't we all complain about Sablock... it went undefeated at Nats :O Know why it did? A VERY good player used it. LostGar will be good, but many other decks will do just as well, if not better. Seriously guys, go test it to see what I mean. I would be upset if the card didn't get released. It was a normal Uncommon in Japanese sets. If it does not get released, our format would be significantly different from Japanese format (adding/subtracting a top deck can really change the format). Our formats have started to mirror each other's quite a bit... and I'd like to keep it that way.
Fartman, who was this that told you that? I question your statement about it not being released. Your past posts seem to show a little bit of experience... but not much. Also, your comment about Jumpluff being a top deck is just bad. It is Tier 3 at highest right now... there isn't much dispute about that as far as I can see
Dos: Open Sableye... collector for 2 magikarp and a regice or 3 karp
MewGar: Play some TSS, LZ Gengar
Dos: Play Karp and dos on bench. Discard a few magikarp. Maybe draw some cards and do some other stuff. If they are well off, OHKO first Mew.
See? In a relatively reasonable game, the Dos player will open a prize on T2 and have their Karps safely in the discard. Perhaps playtest before you come up with an absurd theory plz -_- I would say that Gyarados will actually do BETTER post set if we see everything we want. Post set, we will probably be a little less SP (always what happens if we see a playable set) which makes Dos players very happy.
Also guys, don't complain about Lost World. The card is 100% fair and balanced. Rather than complaining about it, go playtest a few games and see how fair it is. The deck is very build intensive... a bad build will ruin the deck. If "everyone" runs the deck, I'd jump for joy. That means less people to compete with for top tables and easier wins in rounds 1-2. SP's were "broken", but I didn't see people quitting because of them. I saw quite a bit of rage, but then it died down. People are so quick to cry when they see an alternate win condition. I'm willing to bet that 90% of the people who quit BECAUSE of LW being released have not played ten games with a real LW deck. The deck has been put massively through testing and is very difficult to build. Just keep playing guys -_- You will realize eventually that it is balanced. Some of the top players may play the deck, obviously. Top players will make what they touch turn to gold. If what they play is not good, they will not play it. The deck will win because, when built correctly, it can wreak havoc on the game, but it is still balanced. Like everything else, it will have reasonable win-loss records. Why don't we all complain about Sablock... it went undefeated at Nats :O Know why it did? A VERY good player used it. LostGar will be good, but many other decks will do just as well, if not better. Seriously guys, go test it to see what I mean. I would be upset if the card didn't get released. It was a normal Uncommon in Japanese sets. If it does not get released, our format would be significantly different from Japanese format (adding/subtracting a top deck can really change the format). Our formats have started to mirror each other's quite a bit... and I'd like to keep it that way.
Fartman, who was this that told you that? I question your statement about it not being released. Your past posts seem to show a little bit of experience... but not much. Also, your comment about Jumpluff being a top deck is just bad. It is Tier 3 at highest right now... there isn't much dispute about that as far as I can see
Zero...is right. Lost World itself, is a good card. However, it's a Stadium. Hello. Gyarados. BTS. Correlation? I think so.
However. Two Magikarp in the Discard Pile isn't all that powerful. You give Gengar Prime-users to take more time to Seeker your Bench, (Warp Point your Gyara and Seeker that?), and take your attacker out of the game. For Lost World to be utilized, you need a great build, a good start to actually make use of it, and a way to outspeed everything else out there.
However. Two Magikarp in the Discard Pile isn't all that powerful. You give Gengar Prime-users to take more time to Seeker your Bench, (Warp Point your Gyara and Seeker that?), and take your attacker out of the game. For Lost World to be utilized, you need a great build, a good start to actually make use of it, and a way to outspeed everything else out there.
Uh... Espeon... BTS does nothing against LW. Just fyi ;D Also, The Gengar player has to do some mad haxing skills to be able to Hunter your Gyara... the Gyara player chooses what they take to their hand. Thus, Gyarados will have no problem dealing with LostGar.
I'm on a roll this week... two people admitting my correctness in a row. I'm going to need to put this stuff on my Bio if it continues. ;D
I'm on a roll this week... two people admitting my correctness in a row. I'm going to need to put this stuff on my Bio if it continues. ;D
On topic: At the first cities I went to..none of the top 8 were dos..even if it does survive from what I've seen the deck never will be as good as before and will be more of a "fun" deck more than a meta top-tier deck.
Or it can go something like that:
Dos: Open Sableye... collector for 2 magikarp and a regice or 3 karp
MewGar: Started with gastly, rare candy into Gengar Prime + psychic energy.
Goodbye one magikarp.
Here sableye hurt by putting carp into our hand and ending our turn. Smeargle would be better in that particular matchup.
Dos: Open Sableye... collector for 2 magikarp and a regice or 3 karp
MewGar: Started with gastly, rare candy into Gengar Prime + psychic energy.
Goodbye one magikarp.
Here sableye hurt by putting carp into our hand and ending our turn. Smeargle would be better in that particular matchup.
Sigh here we go again.
Quote myself:
Lostgar is virtually unbeatable without the element of luck ie BDIF, and you don't cure cancer with another cancer. Most of us are glad SP is close to rotation because we want more variety, creativity in the metagame. Replacing the percentage of SP players with Lostgar players is NOT variety and creativity.
Why would anyone put down Lost World if they haven't met the winning requirement? Gengar needs BTS as well.
Anyway, here's my argument:
Have I played with a real LW deck? Yes I have, in real life with proxies. There is no reasonable way to win it except the LW deck user getting terrible draws. I'd laugh at anyone saying its slow and you can easily get 6 prizes first. Gengar Prime builds can very easily use a speedier, trainer engine, allowing for T1 Gengar Prime and sending a Pokemon to the Lost Zone, essentially drawing the first prize. Combined with Looker's Investigation, Seeker and Spiritomb if it gets released, there's no way you can be completely free of excess Pokemon in your hand for long. With 130 HP there's not a lot of Pokemon to kill it quick enough, and dealing injuries will only be countered with Seeker. Except for Tyranitar Prime I can't find a single Pokemon capable of killing it in a single blow.
A Lostgar build does not need Mew Prime, the best build I've played against doesn't have any Mews, but it's another option. Killing Mew is not a problem, and that's the misconception people have - I can kill Mew easily, I can get 6 prizes. In fact, claiming the first prize only helps to speed up Lostgar with Twins. Lostgar NEVER goes for drawing prizes, meaning the 4 Twins in the deck will always be in use, plus the VS seekers it will have to boost Supporter count.
With regards to Gyarados, its precisely the kind of deck that suffers from Lostgar, because it needs setup. Lostgar needs to evolve and attach energies, Gyarados will need to discard the Pokemon, an additional step that will not always happen on the first turn, as fast as Gyarados is.
Quote myself:
Lostgar is virtually unbeatable without the element of luck ie BDIF, and you don't cure cancer with another cancer. Most of us are glad SP is close to rotation because we want more variety, creativity in the metagame. Replacing the percentage of SP players with Lostgar players is NOT variety and creativity.
Why would anyone put down Lost World if they haven't met the winning requirement? Gengar needs BTS as well.
Anyway, here's my argument:
Have I played with a real LW deck? Yes I have, in real life with proxies. There is no reasonable way to win it except the LW deck user getting terrible draws. I'd laugh at anyone saying its slow and you can easily get 6 prizes first. Gengar Prime builds can very easily use a speedier, trainer engine, allowing for T1 Gengar Prime and sending a Pokemon to the Lost Zone, essentially drawing the first prize. Combined with Looker's Investigation, Seeker and Spiritomb if it gets released, there's no way you can be completely free of excess Pokemon in your hand for long. With 130 HP there's not a lot of Pokemon to kill it quick enough, and dealing injuries will only be countered with Seeker. Except for Tyranitar Prime I can't find a single Pokemon capable of killing it in a single blow.
A Lostgar build does not need Mew Prime, the best build I've played against doesn't have any Mews, but it's another option. Killing Mew is not a problem, and that's the misconception people have - I can kill Mew easily, I can get 6 prizes. In fact, claiming the first prize only helps to speed up Lostgar with Twins. Lostgar NEVER goes for drawing prizes, meaning the 4 Twins in the deck will always be in use, plus the VS seekers it will have to boost Supporter count.
With regards to Gyarados, its precisely the kind of deck that suffers from Lostgar, because it needs setup. Lostgar needs to evolve and attach energies, Gyarados will need to discard the Pokemon, an additional step that will not always happen on the first turn, as fast as Gyarados is.
Yeah, it takes away 'Dos's ability to use Sableye safely. No more Collector early-game, maybe not even T1.
@EspeonROX, the LostGar player would just play it down right before he declared a win, not at the start of a game...
@Zero, I have tested it and think it's best to run it without Mew Prime, and just get to Gengar with Rare Candy/BTS evolution. Like every other Stage 2 deck, it can get set up quickly enough that Gengar can be out their first turn if they go second (which they would against Sableye), maybe second turn. A Spiritomb start, also, can help stop Gyara from getting 'Karps discarded with Junk Arm very early, so Regice is the only option (Volkner's ay be one if it's run, but that's only 1 to the discard and takes up a Supporter that turn). Consider this start:
G-Dos: Open Sableye, Impersonate Collector for Regice and 2 'Karp.
LostGar: Open with Spiritomb and Gengar in hand. Collector for Gastly, Spiritomb, and Uxie. Communication Spiritomb to get a Haunter. Uxie sets up, gets a BTS and Unown Q. Attach Unown Q to Spiritomb, play BTS, play Gastly evolve Gastly into Haunter, then Haunter into Gengar, retreat to Gengar, attach psychic to Gengar, and Lost Zone a 'Karp.
G-Dos: Is now doing 60/turn.
Unlikely, but there are a wide range of things that can happen.
@EspeonROX, the LostGar player would just play it down right before he declared a win, not at the start of a game...
@Zero, I have tested it and think it's best to run it without Mew Prime, and just get to Gengar with Rare Candy/BTS evolution. Like every other Stage 2 deck, it can get set up quickly enough that Gengar can be out their first turn if they go second (which they would against Sableye), maybe second turn. A Spiritomb start, also, can help stop Gyara from getting 'Karps discarded with Junk Arm very early, so Regice is the only option (Volkner's ay be one if it's run, but that's only 1 to the discard and takes up a Supporter that turn). Consider this start:
G-Dos: Open Sableye, Impersonate Collector for Regice and 2 'Karp.
LostGar: Open with Spiritomb and Gengar in hand. Collector for Gastly, Spiritomb, and Uxie. Communication Spiritomb to get a Haunter. Uxie sets up, gets a BTS and Unown Q. Attach Unown Q to Spiritomb, play BTS, play Gastly evolve Gastly into Haunter, then Haunter into Gengar, retreat to Gengar, attach psychic to Gengar, and Lost Zone a 'Karp.
G-Dos: Is now doing 60/turn.
Unlikely, but there are a wide range of things that can happen.
Juliant, I respect your opinion... but it is wrong -_- Your first few statements are just complaints tbh. The metagame is not without variety. People complain because one archetype of card is a littlebit better than the others. This metagame is much more diverse than many of the past ones (RS-on for example). Saying that people want more variety is being unrealistic with the game. We CAN get more variety, but don't count on it. Also, saying that all the Luxchomp players will transition to LostGar is unfair to say. You are generalizing those players as "preferring the BDIF". Just because somebody plays LuxChomp does not mean they want to follow the BDIF. They clearly like the deck and should know how to play it well. Your arguments are faulty as well. Your definition of a "quick kill" appears to be "able to OHKO". You suggest that LostGar builds should be using a quick Trainer line. While quick Trainer lines get Gengar out fast, they will be difficult to use to get the 2nd/3rd one back out. That means that there is time to 2HKO the gengar. That is what Dos was planning on doing anyways. You will only be seeing 2-3 gengars per game, and you'll have time to kill them... especially with them not attacking your attacker. Dos especially is able to discard pokemon that it doesn't need (Regice), so past turn 1, Gengar will need hunters to take LZs.
Perhaps your game involved faulty variables? :O Perhaps you/your opponent used a bad Not LostGar deck? Perhaps you or your opponent who was using the Not LostGar deck was just a bad player? The deck is not unbeatable and you are stupid to believe it is. And believe it or not guys, Dos can survive LZing a magikarp. Think about this... LostGar does not attack. No matter what, Dos will 2shot LostGar. The LostGar player will not punish you for playing a belt down. You still 2HKO LostGar even with a Magikarp LZ'd.
I will not argue as to Great Mew's worth, but I find myself putting it in my Gar builds quite often ;D
Perhaps your game involved faulty variables? :O Perhaps you/your opponent used a bad Not LostGar deck? Perhaps you or your opponent who was using the Not LostGar deck was just a bad player? The deck is not unbeatable and you are stupid to believe it is. And believe it or not guys, Dos can survive LZing a magikarp. Think about this... LostGar does not attack. No matter what, Dos will 2shot LostGar. The LostGar player will not punish you for playing a belt down. You still 2HKO LostGar even with a Magikarp LZ'd.
I will not argue as to Great Mew's worth, but I find myself putting it in my Gar builds quite often ;D
Ugh lost world is nowhere near as bad as I thought it would be when I read it. In fact, I reckon it will probs come around next set but im still trading any gengar primes I get because I really don't think it's that big a deal. As a gdos player, I would be happy if lost world became popular, there are ways of playing around it.
A gdos player does not have to collector first turn and risk a magikarp in the lost zone. Instead throw in a cyrus conspiracy tech so that you can search the collector out for next turn instead. Gyarados can run in a way in which there are no magikarps in hand, and no magikarps on the bench after the first turn which is when it's safest to put it down.
After testing, the only pokemon card I usually have in my hand for the gengar prime to lostzone is either gyarados or combee, and I can just put them away into my deck quite easily to save for later. Yes seeker helps out here but at the end of the day, you will only ever be lost zoning things that the opponent doesn't really care about going in the lost zone, like used azelfs and sableyes etc
Lostgar just doesn't have a backup plan if the opponent plays around the whole lost world scenario
A gdos player does not have to collector first turn and risk a magikarp in the lost zone. Instead throw in a cyrus conspiracy tech so that you can search the collector out for next turn instead. Gyarados can run in a way in which there are no magikarps in hand, and no magikarps on the bench after the first turn which is when it's safest to put it down.
After testing, the only pokemon card I usually have in my hand for the gengar prime to lostzone is either gyarados or combee, and I can just put them away into my deck quite easily to save for later. Yes seeker helps out here but at the end of the day, you will only ever be lost zoning things that the opponent doesn't really care about going in the lost zone, like used azelfs and sableyes etc
Lostgar just doesn't have a backup plan if the opponent plays around the whole lost world scenario
^Regimove all you want. LostGar will play Seeker like mad.
Also, LostGar can play Omastar MD before the format changes. Against evo decks, it helps a lot (it kills Jumpluff and Charizard and can do a lot against other decks, too).
Even if the player against LostGar never has any Pokémon besides those benched and active, 4 Seeker and 2 Vs. Seeker wins with 6 turns. And it's tough to OHKO LostGar. Not impossible, but winning in even 9 turns is really hard. And since LostGar takes almost no prizes, maybe sometimes a solitary Magikarp vs. Gyara, it makes full use of Twins.
@Zero, if I were to run LostGar, I would use lots of Reversal. Get that Regice out there, keep Seekering, and win speedyquick. Gyara won't be out there so often.
Also, LostGar can play Omastar MD before the format changes. Against evo decks, it helps a lot (it kills Jumpluff and Charizard and can do a lot against other decks, too).
Even if the player against LostGar never has any Pokémon besides those benched and active, 4 Seeker and 2 Vs. Seeker wins with 6 turns. And it's tough to OHKO LostGar. Not impossible, but winning in even 9 turns is really hard. And since LostGar takes almost no prizes, maybe sometimes a solitary Magikarp vs. Gyara, it makes full use of Twins.
@Zero, if I were to run LostGar, I would use lots of Reversal. Get that Regice out there, keep Seekering, and win speedyquick. Gyara won't be out there so often.