Discussion Would a sideboard work in Pokemon TCG?

@crystal_pidgeot

To whom are you speaking? You quoted my comment, where I pointed out that

1) Human brain development takes time, so while some individuals may be more advanced in younger age groups, some literally have no hope of understanding advanced concepts because it is a physiological impossibility.

2) I put forth that there are some things wrong with the game that playing better will not fix, but that also that there are people who will complain about issues with the game and either

a) name something that isn't wrong at all but an example of where that person just needs to improve his or her skill
b) names something that is wrong but gives faulty reasoning for it, which doesn't just make them look bad but can confuse the issue even more.
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Neither of these are absolutes: giving a example of when it is not true in no way disproves the underlying concept because the underlying concept is not an absolute.

You bring up player skill but give no good way to establish your own. However I don't know a lot of the top players so I often won't realize someone's screen name. For that matter, you had to tell me you were the same person as someone from the PokéGym because I was being thick and didn't catch all the similarities. Are you someone who regularly places high at Worlds? Or if not, regularly play against such people and can at least hang with them? If so that is great. I don't know that though and "playing decks with a high skill curve" doesn't actually prove that. For starters, I'd need to know what decks and then see clear evidence you play them well, and after all of that it is possibly you have simply learned those particular decks well as opposed to having more general skill. Yes, I have seen people that I would mistake for greats because they knew this one deck in and out as well as all of its match-ups... but you give them anything else and their performance dropped.

Personally, I am well aware that I am not a skilled player in terms of the world wide player base. When I was able to attend League, I was one of the better (at times the best) local player, but big fish in a small pond and all. Right now I estimate myself as below average, but not significantly. So I encounter situations where I do not seem to have a hope of winning and I also encounter situations where it was a misplay on my part that cost me the game. There are also some decks that have horrible match-ups against each other, possible an intentional element of the game because regrettably some consider it balanced when Deck A > Deck B > Deck C > Deck A to a major degree.

None of what you said seemed to support adding Side Boards; if things are that messed up, why would Side Boards help? So some decks can work in a few counters that they can access for games two (and if it happens, three) in a best of two match. The decks you are struggling with will gain the same benefit and if they have no weak match-ups, will simply be able to add in generally beneficial cards or counters to the counters.
 
I think this 'sideboard' is a good idea. But we need to change it completely. First, you can only swap cards in your deck if you lose the first match, an nobody can swap cards in the first match. If you swap, you have to swap EVERY SINGLE CARD in your sideboard for other cards. You may not make the sideboard all trainers, all Pokemon, or all energy. You must have at LEAST 1 of each and at most 3 of each. Or just not choose to use a sideboard. But this is too complicated. =D
 
The biggest issue with adding a sideboard, though, is that the game isn't designed for it. People keep comparing it to Magic and Yugioh, but those games don't generally have the amount of draw and search power as Pokemon does, something that experienced Magic and Yugioh players tell me constantly when they see games progress. If a sideboard were just "added" to Pokemon as it is, it could wreck the game. Magic and Yugioh, however, have had years to develop with the side-board already an established mechanic. My last post noted that maybe it COULD be added down the road, after the game was designed to change to fit the idea, but to just casually throw in the mechanic without testing and altering the design of the game, you're just changing rules at that point.

If anything, Pokemon's "sideboard" possibility, I think, is something that belongs in testing decks. When testing, playing at league, etc, you're free to swap cards to try to get more consistency. And that's the key in Pokemon's competitive field: consistency. If you notice you have consistent problems in match ups, you test, find the flaw, and change it. If you lose consistency to general performance in the change, maybe a different deck, or even just different choices in-game would be better. And no matter what, you WILL have bad matchups. So will every opponent. It happens, it's the very nature of this game.
 
neophenx said:
The biggest issue with adding a sideboard, though, is that the game isn't designed for it. People keep comparing it to Magic and Yugioh, but those games don't generally have the amount of draw and search power as Pokemon does, something that experienced Magic and Yugioh players tell me constantly when they see games progress. If a sideboard were just "added" to Pokemon as it is, it could wreck the game. Magic and Yugioh, however, have had years to develop with the side-board already an established mechanic. My last post noted that maybe it COULD be added down the road, after the game was designed to change to fit the idea, but to just casually throw in the mechanic without testing and altering the design of the game, you're just changing rules at that point.

If anything, Pokemon's "sideboard" possibility, I think, is something that belongs in testing decks. When testing, playing at league, etc, you're free to swap cards to try to get more consistency. And that's the key in Pokemon's competitive field: consistency. If you notice you have consistent problems in match ups, you test, find the flaw, and change it. If you lose consistency to general performance in the change, maybe a different deck, or even just different choices in-game would be better. And no matter what, you WILL have bad matchups. So will every opponent. It happens, it's the very nature of this game.
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I should say here that Yugioh has more search power than Pokemon. Most deck now can see many cards in one turn.
 
crystal_pidgeot said:
I should say here that Yugioh has more search power than Pokemon. Most deck now can see many cards in one turn.
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Yu-Gi-Oh did have quite a bit of search effects when I played and seems to have even more now but are they really on par with that of Pokémon? Most tutors in Yu-Gi-Oh seemed to be pretty specific, and coupled with less quality draw power the overall net effect seemed like less search.

Still I'm out of touch; I tried to return to Yu-Gi-Oh a year or two ago and didn't like where the game was at so it fizzled. I'm thus rather ignorant on how things work now versus up to 2009.
 
Otaku said:
Yu-Gi-Oh did have quite a bit of search effects when I played and seems to have even more now but are they really on par with that of Pokémon? Most tutors in Yu-Gi-Oh seemed to be pretty specific, and coupled with less quality draw power the overall net effect seemed like less search.

Still I'm out of touch; I tried to return to Yu-Gi-Oh a year or two ago and didn't like where the game was at so it fizzled. I'm thus rather ignorant on how things work now versus up to 2009.
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Its alright. I still play from time to time but done because of what you said, lol. In Yughio, they also have much more powerful cards as well. The big thing right now is playing from the graveyard with many cards that combo off each other. Pretty much if you can't +2 with cards, they aren't even worth looking at.
 
Sorry to be thick @crystal_pidgeot but Yu-Gi-Oh has almost always had more powerful cards than in Pokémon except when it came to draw power.

Then again, if we both don't like where YGO is at right now, it is probably not the best example for a Side Board helping Pokémon. I mean, I've been using it as an example for why Pokémon should not get a Side Board. MtG on the other hand I don't play but most tell me that it does work well there.
 
crystal_pidgeot said:
Night March won't be winning if players could side in something to deal with it. You need to show me how it is bad. I believe decks with overpowered strategies ruin the meta since there are little options at dealing with them in a 60 card deck. With a side deck, we can have better deck builds and decks like Night March won't even be a competitive concept.
Vespiquen, Flareon and Night March are the problem IMO.
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Night March isn't winning in Standard, that's for sure. It isn't even that good in Expanded. Look at Fall regionals results. There are many tournaments where it didn't even make top 8 at all. Heck, even look at the Pokebeach tiering threads. Night March is tier 2 in Expanded, and not even listed for Standard. Vespiquen is tier 2 in Standard. Flareon/Vespiquen is the only deck you mentioned that is even tier 1 in any format. That does not constitute a broken deck. If you're having so much trouble with those decks, they are not the problem. Your deck would be the problem, in that case. Try adding a couple Enhanced Hammer and a Hex Maniac. Those'll help you against a lot of other decks too. Your vehement defense of the concept of a sideboard seems entirely rooted in your personal struggles with Night March decks, and other similar decks. One deck that you struggle with, but which isn't even all that competitively viable anymore in most cases, is not a valid reason to justify implementing a new, hugely game-changing mechanic.
 
Sjin said:
Night March isn't winning in Standard, that's for sure. It isn't even that good in Expanded. Look at Fall regionals results. There are many tournaments where it didn't even make top 8 at all. Heck, even look at the Pokebeach tiering threads. Night March is tier 2 in Expanded, and not even listed for Standard. Vespiquen is tier 2 in Standard. Flareon/Vespiquen is the only deck you mentioned that is even tier 1 in any format. That does not constitute a broken deck. If you're having so much trouble with those decks, they are not the problem. Your deck would be the problem, in that case. Try adding a couple Enhanced Hammer and a Hex Maniac. Those'll help you against a lot of other decks too. Your vehement defense of the concept of a sideboard seems entirely rooted in your personal struggles with Night March decks, and other similar decks. One deck that you struggle with, but which isn't even all that competitively viable anymore in most cases, is not a valid reason to justify implementing a new, hugely game-changing mechanic.
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Nice strawman. If you read my post, you'll see I was talking about the concept of such a deck when no counters exist to stop it. E.Hammer and maniac dont always work and does nothing against a turn one 180 damage. Like you said, you dont see it around much so most don't see a reason to tech for a deck they may not play, which is why a side deck would be important because we could keep those cards in them. My deck competitive so that's not the issue.
 
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