Alt. Format XY-On: Giratina EX / Hydreigon EX / Vileplume

[exxtrooper]

exxtrooper:
I think your are actually right about the Aegislash and Safegaurd Pokemon statement, but I realized why I actually run it is because of Dialga EX. If I can get the first attack off with a Muscle Band I can beat it, and I can do that because if my Hydreigon's are out I'll just free retreat into it. Hope this helps!


Tuxedo Black:
I have two things to tell you, for one I'm not sure that you could go from Oddish to Vileplume on your first turn even with Giant Plant Forest in the stadium spot. Correct me if I am wrong, also that is a really exact starting hand you would need to pull off what your saying, so even though in theory it is really good I don't think you will ever get off to that kind of a start. Hope this helps!

I actually did get them out as early as turn one or two, it was surprisingly easy. Using 4 Giant Plant forrest, 4 ultraballs, 2 level balls, Hoopa EX and Shaymin EX the set up was more than real. With a 3-3-3 Vileplume line, I had no problem getting that item lock out efficently, though I have to say there is really no other deck i the meta in which it is more crucial to go first.

I ran the pokemon 4 Giratina EX 3-3-3 Vileplume 1 Shaymin EX 1 Hoopa EX 2 Hydreigon, I did run a Miltank FLF but I had no use for it really. I would maybe add another Hydreigon.

I would recommend using only 4 Plant forrest as your stadium, its just too good to pass up. I also have to say using items was easier than I thought it would, I ran two muscle bands and 2 trainers mail and they actually really helped most of the time.

After some additional thought, I better understand now why you'd want to start with a Giratina EX. (Note: my personal preference has typically been to have some type of attacker inflicting damage as quickly as possible).

In this deck's case, I believe the opening strategy may be:

• GO FIRST.
• Start with a Giratina EX (low odds that it would be KOd t1). Play card search Balls and draw Supporter.
• Bench another Giratina EX and Oddish; get Giant Plant Forrest into play; and evolve to Vileplume (t1).
• Attach energy to benched Giratina EX.
• Pass.
• On t2, play AZ to pickup/recover possibly damaged active Giratina EX (or simply retreat it (for free) if you can), promote benched Giratina EX, attach necessary energy; and attack.

The locks are now in effect, get necessary Poké onto bench, attach energy, and maintain locks, etc... Win the game. In theory... lol.

Looking forward to some testing.

Here are my thoughts after some testing today:

I 100% (plus 20% with muscle band) agree on going first, it is very crucial in this deck to get the lock out as fast as humanly possible.

I had some mixed results with starting, I think one of the best cards in this deck is AZ, I ran three of it. One time I started with Hoopa EX in active, then used ultraball to get a Giratina EX, AZ'd up Hoopa EX and put it down to get 2 Hydreigons and Shaymin-ex. Just having those two gives you an immense setup advantage.

Rest of the time you use your normal supporters and items until you get vileplume out, and there's enough energies in the deck for you to get them consistently.

I never really had any use for pokemon fanclub with Hoopa and shaymin in the deck, I replaced two fan club with team flare grunt for increased disruption.

Xerosic wasnt needed in the deck with vileplume blocking those off.

You'd think your enemy using xerosic would shut down giratina fast, but with so many double energies as well as basic energies it was more like stalling because they used up their supporter for the run.

Never had any use for steven, might replace it with a professors letter for basic energy retrieval. Az was also good for gettign vileplume up, using items, then putting it down.

Like you said, with the combination of free retreat and Hydreigons using the as shields for setting up was surprisingly effective because of their high HP. I might add three hydreigon for added efficency.

In terms of matchups: Groudon stood no chance, M Ray had to rely on lysandre but you can negate this with only putting out Giratina. Aegislash is a paint put can be handled. Haven't tested toad but I cant imagine it being easy, but either way we wont see too much of it post rotation.

Worst matchup was by far Yveltal because of the high energy cost.

Overall it was a lot better then I thought it would be, and I'm convinced about it and I'm going to invest in getting Giratinas in august.

 

[TuxedoBlack]

@exxtrooper Glad to hear such good results. I plan to start assembling my proxied deck and play-test tomorrow. Feedback will follow thereafter. Thanks.

 

[Mega Adi]

Some things that I would keep in mind when playing would be:

Like both of you said going first is key in this deck.

Also I like Pokemon Fan Club in the deck because you can pull stuff like a Oddish and Hoopa EX, play them both down and put 2 Hydreigon EX and 1 Shaymin EX in your hand then play all of that for a really good start.

To be honest really this deck list I have come up with doesn't really have very many bad match ups, one of the worst decks I played against was Metal/ M Rayquaza EX but I still won about 40% of my matches.

I hope this helps!

 

[exxtrooper]

Also I like Pokemon Fan Club in the deck because you can pull stuff like a Oddish and Hoopa EX, play them both down and put 2 Hydreigon EX and 1 Shaymin EX in your hand then play all of that for a really good start.

You can still do that with an ultraball.

 

[Mega Adi]

Yes but Ultra Ball becomes a dead card if Vileplume is out, but if you can still use Pokemon Fan Club if you have it. Also with Pokemon Fan Club you can pull 2 Basic Pokemon allowing for much more freedom. I hope this helps!

 

[RazorX_83]

I've thought about running a deck like this with giratina and hydreigon but I didn't want to play vileplume what if I swithed the vileplume line out with beautifly? its a non ex attacker that blocks exs in general any thoughts?

 

[Hukutus]

Have you tried against Machamp-EX/Ariados? It can 1-hit Giratina with 2nd attack without any special energy, tool or stadium.

Also, I guess playing against fairy is an auto lose.

 

[exxtrooper]

I've thought about running a deck like this with giratina and hydreigon but I didn't want to play vileplume what if I swithed the vileplume line out with beautifly? its a non ex attacker that blocks exs in general any thoughts?

The thing with Giratina is it does just enough damage to not need items to do enough havoc, but it needs the extra "lockness" to be effective with the item lock defending it against hammers and other items, without that its just a really expensive tech, its better to focus solely on the card itself. You'd be better off having Seismitoad in the deck instead.

Have you tried against Machamp-EX/Ariados? It can 1-hit Giratina with 2nd attack without any special energy, tool or stadium.

Also, I guess playing against fairy is an auto lose.

Machamp needs a little bit to set up, but then again giratina isnt that fast either. But yes it is a very good matchup against giratina, though people are saying its a bit slow. I have not tested against this matchup.

Also @Mega Adi and @TuxedoBlack here is a decklist a competetive japanese player is using right now after the release of Bandit Ring!

Pokemon (20)

• 3-3-3 Vileplume AOR
• 4 Unown AOR
• 3 Giratina EX AOR
• 2 Hydreigon EX ROS
• 2 Shaymin EX ROS

Trainers (31)

• 2 AZ
• 4 Tierno
• 4 Sycamore
• 3 Lysandre
• 3 Muscle Band
• 4 Trainers Mail
• 2 Level Ball
• 1 Switch
• 4 Ultraball
• 4 Giant Plant Forrest

Energy (9)

• 2 Basic Grass Energy
• 3 Double Colorless
• 4 Double Dragon Energy

It was actually a bit similar to mine, although probably better thought through. I really want to know the thought procces behind having one less double colorless, 1 swtich as well as two basic grass energy, and no Hoopa EX, which I thought was going to be kind in this deck.

Andy why, why the Tiernos? Why?

I don't get it.

 

[Mega Adi]

How well did this so called competitive deck do? Personally this deck looks a little unfocused, and honestly I think 4 Giratina EX in this deck is a staple. What also makes no sense is the Tierno man, why. Honestly I don't think this deck is competitive. I hope this helps!

 

[RazorX_83]

The thing with Giratina is it does just enough damage to not need items to do enough havoc, but it needs the extra "lockness" to be effective with the item lock defending it against hammers and other items, without that its just a really expensive tech, its better to focus solely on the card itself. You'd be better off having Seismitoad in the deck instead.

Thanks! i will try this out. As for the picture of the deck list you have to remember it is a specialized list for that specific player. Each player has a different style. the Tiernos could be switched with shaunas / professor birches observations. the unknowns are probably to help with the lack of draw support(only drawing 3 with tierno) but they could be switched with hoopa i believe as well as pokemon fan clubs. But this is my opinion.

 

[exxtrooper]

How well did this so called competitive deck do? Personally this deck looks a little unfocused, and honestly I think 4 Giratina EX in this deck is a staple. What also makes no sense is the Tierno man, why. Honestly I don't think this deck is competitive. I hope this helps!

Whatever it was played in, it won the day/tournament: https://twitter.com/zundoko_dt/status/614752227861770240

How is it confusing?

 

[Mega Adi]

I didn't mean confusing as in like I was confused. I meant that I don't understand how this deck is any good. I just don't see how this deck can win, I mean how does his deck like even work. I appreciate all input!

 

[exxtrooper]

I didn't mean confusing as in like I was confused. I meant that I don't understand how this deck is any good. I just don't see how this deck can win, I mean how does his deck like even work. I appreciate all input!

You honestly, have absolutely zero idea, as to why that deck, can win any match whatsoever, in any sort of way?

 

[Mega Adi]

You honestly, have absolutely zero idea, as to why that deck, can win any match whatsoever, in any sort of way?

I understand the concept, but not how it could be better than any of our deck lists competitively. I mean, I don't understand how 4 Tiernos makes sense in this deck at all.

 

[TuxedoBlack]

Pokemon (20)

• 3-3-3 Vileplume AOR
• 4 Unown AOR
• 3 Giratina EX AOR
• 2 Hydreigon EX ROS
• 2 Shaymin EX ROS

Trainers (31)

• 2 AZ
• 4 Tierno
• 4 Sycamore
• 3 Lysandre
• 3 Muscle Band
• 4 Trainers Mail
• 2 Level Ball
• 1 Switch
• 4 Ultraball
• 4 Giant Plant Forrest

Energy (9)

• 2 Basic Grass Energy
• 3 Double Colorless
• 4 Double Dragon Energy

Thanks for sharing the above list. I find it interesting... Although that player may have won a particular tournament, IMO, it would be a waste of time to try and speculate why that particular list was successful. There are just too many details about this deck's player, his/her competitors, the tournament, etc. we just don't know.

As promised, following is some feedback regarding the GriaPlume deck after some play-testing this past weekend about 10 games vs. M. Tyranitar-Bats, Machamp-Ariados and Seismitoad-Manectric. All of the opposing decks were also proxied for the XY-on game format.

My GiraPlume deck list:

Pokemon (16)
4 Giratina EX
3 Gloom
2 Hydreigon EX
1 Miltank
3 Oddish
3 Vileplume

Trainers (32)
3 AZ
4 Giant Plant Forest
3 Level Ball
2 Lysandre
2 Pokemon Fan Club
4 Professor Birch’s Observations
4 Professor Sycamore
1 Professor’s Letter
1 Shauna
1 Steven
2 Team Flare Grunt
3 Ultra Ball
2 VS Seeker

Energy (12)
4 Double Colorless
4 Double Dragon
2 Grass
2 Psychic

Some general thoughts/comments:

• With the re-release of Level Ball and release of Giant Plant Forest, one of the key objectives of this deck’s game strategy is to Item-lock opponents as soon as possible. As most players know from playing experience with/against decks like Seismitoad EX, Trevenant, etc., an Item-lock can definitely impede opponents’ setup, thus potentially placing them at an early-game disadvantage. The 3 Level Balls, 2 Pokemon Fan Clubs, 4 Giant Plant Forest, 3 Ultra Balls, and a 3-3-3 Vilplume line all helped to achieve this t1/t2 objective 90% of the time.
• As a by-product of achieving a t1/t2 Vileplume Item-lock, my playing style was affected knowing that from that point on, I too could not play any items. So, I had to adjust by expending my Item resources as much as possible just prior to establishing the Item-lock.
• A starting Giratina EX (50% of the time) was ideal since it could take a few hits while powering-up a benched Giratina EX. The initial Giratina EX was typically rescued via playing an AZ. After the benched Giratina EX was finally promoted to the active position and started attacking, there were times when playing another AZ denied my opponents taking 2 prizes, but I could not recover any of the Special energy that had to be discarded. This deck has Special energy that need to be preserved/recovered at times; so, replacing 2 of the AZs with 2 Cassius would seem prudent and quite helpful.
• Managing 8 Special energy when your primary attacker requires 2 turns to attach at best or 4 turns to attach worst case is “too” slow and cumbersome most times, IMO. Also, if an opponent played energy removal cards, the GiraPlume deck just stalled, took damage, and I was placed at an immediate disadvantage since I could not recover (or quickly find) needed Special and/or Basic energy to counterattack in a timely manner.
• Team Flare Grunt and/or Xerosic are HUGE in this deck. Each opposing deck ran some type of Special energy which could be discarded. These cards impeded opponents’ build-up and bought time to power-up Giratina EX.
• When both locks (i.e., Frustrating Pollen and Chaos Veil) were in place, all opponents’ plays were impacted, but not so significant that they could not recover at some point. IMO, this is largely due to the fact that the Chaos Veil attack only inflicts 100 damage which definitely does not 1HKO most/all EX Poke. In addition, opponents could adjust their playing style so that they would attach the Special energy prior to my Chaos Veil attacks.

Deck Match-ups:

• I played 4 games against Machamp-Ariados (also had Hawluca and Landorus in his deck). Record: 0-4. This opponent had energy attachment acceleration, enhanced damage output (via Fighting Stadium and Strong energy), and a Basic Poke, Hawlucha, that could force a 2-for-1 prize exchange. GiraPlume was just simply over-powered and out-sped (?) by my opponent running Machamp-Ariados.
• In playing against Tyranitar-Bats for 4 games, resulting in another 0-4 record, Yveltal was not only used as an energy attachment acceleration engine, it was also an effective “setup” attacker for M Tyranitar EX. In most cases, a single M Tyranitar EX could KO multiple Giratina EXs. Chaos Veil’s 100 damage output for 4 energy coupled with the time required to attach the necessary energy, did not yield sufficient game-winning advantage(s), IMO.
• The match-up against Seismitoad-Manectric was a bit more competitive. In these 2 games, I managed to get an Item-lock in place very early, drew into the needed energy early, and was able to slow my opponent down. Giratina EX’s Chaos Veil 100 damage output definitely out-matched Seismitoad EX’s Quaking Punch. However, in the second game, my opponent chose to get M Manectric EX into play much faster than before and started accelerating energy onto benched Seismitoad EXs for subsequent Grenade Hammer attacks. In addition, he managed to get a Rough Seas Stadium to “stick;” so, his main Poke received some healing relief each turn. Again, without 1HKO capability on big HP Poke, Giratina EX Chaos Veil’s damage output and effects are just not enough to gain game-winning advantage(s) often enough against major decks, IMO.

Summary (IMO):

• GiraPlume will have a bad match-up with any deck that has an energy attachment acceleration engine.
• To improve battle performance, usage of energy removal cards would help GiraPlume. In doing so, Giratina EX’s 2HKOs will be more likely with fewer response KOs by opponents. However, this also will have an impact on needed card drawing since playing a Supporter to remove opponents’ attached energy will expend one’s allocated 1 Supporter/turn play. Shaymin EXs need to be incorporated for supplemental card draw.
• Damage output is too low for the required energy attachment.
• Required energy needed for the main attack is mixed and not easily “accessible”; nor can energy attachment be accelerated. Also, time required to attach energy, should no Double be available, is too lengthy.

On the other hand interestingly enough...
A Poke pal just texted me about his positive results with his GiraPlume deck vs. M Rayquaza EX and Vespiquen-Eeveelutions decks. I do not have his deck list. He did concur that GiraPlume is “weak to regular EX Poke that can do lots of damage.”

 

[exxtrooper]

Thanks for the huge rundown @TuxedoBlack , just a lot of information in general is really useful.

I have a few questions regarding your feedback though.

How is it that you were trumped by Mega Tyranitar? Yveltal EX is a really bad matchup with all the special energy, but M Tyranitar cant attack Giratina without Silent Lab, which you cant put down if you're already attacking.

And why is it that you used Giratina to tank? I didn't hear once about any use of the Hydreigons at all, did you not get them up in time? I usually had two hydreigons so I could retreat with Giratina if it's in trouble.

Machamp just trumps him, it's really just way too good, nothing to do here.

A lot of the setting up and getting the energy required consistently might have something to do with the lack of non-supporter draw power. Having the Hoopa EX for setup, and the Shaymins and implementing Unowns made it a lot easier to cycle through getting those special energies.

The way I see it Giratina seems to be a lock with lasers built in, its not enough damage to one-hit everything, but it's enough to put pressure on the opponent and not needing anything like bats to make up for the damage. I think the best way to go about it is vileplume is first priority to stall the opponents setup, and the rest of the deck should just focus on trying to get the special energy in play. Giratina is just too slow without the special energy, its better to just go full out on special energy unless you have some sort of acceleration like Reshiram. Trying to stall the opponent with disruption cards from the way I was playing was just a way of delaying the inevitable.

Against M Ray, Vespiqueen and Raichu however I think it does wonders. The 90hp pokemon gets knocked out too fast to recover, and raichu needs to put both a tool down, and sky field to be able to one hit, which you can easily prevent either of the two.

M Ray matchup, unless Metal variant, has a lot of trouble mostly because it cant fall back on raichu, as the damage done by giratina actually makes it a bad prize trade for once.

I still think Giratina is really good, its just it needs a very specalized deck, with just about everything acting a way to get you everything through three stages Vileplume -> EX Pokemon -> Special energy.

This kind of deck seems like no good without cards like Unown and Shaymins.

Back to the thinking box.

EDIT: You should also really get the deck lists from you friend!

 

[TuxedoBlack]

How is it that you were trumped by Mega Tyranitar? Yveltal EX is a really bad matchup with all the special energy, but M Tyranitar cant attack Giratina without Silent Lab, which you cant put down if you're already attacking.

My opponent was able to get a Silent Lab "to stick" in a few games. In the others, he used Yveltal and Yveltal EX as the primary attackers. Tyranitar EX was used to "cleanup" 1 time too.

And why is it that you used Giratina to tank? I didn't hear once about any use of the Hydreigons at all, did you not get them up in time? I usually had two hydreigons so I could retreat with Giratina if it's in trouble.

Note that Giratina EX has only 170 HP which is not a difficult number to hit. Also, a common strategy is to "follow the energy" meaning even though my Active Pokémon is taking damage while energy is being attached to a benched Giratina EX, the benched, energy-laden Giratina EX would typically be Lysandre'd and attacked if not KOd.

Without a good secondary attacker (that's "easily" powered-up) in the deck (to inflict some early damage and/or to take hit(s)) and an inability to KO main opponents' big HP threats, retreating a wounded Giratina EXs does not address the deck's issue.

I did have a follow-on discussion with my friend and we discussed this deck at length, as well as his strategy. Some differences between the decks are his deck:

• Utilizes Shaymin EXs for supplemental card drawing,
• Incorporates a few Teammates, and
• Has a secondary attacker.

Back to the drawing board...

 

[exxtrooper]

My opponent was able to get a Silent Lab "to stick" in a few games. In the others, he used Yveltal and Yveltal EX as the primary attackers. Tyranitar EX was used to "cleanup" 1 time too.


Note that was a Giratina EX has only 170 HP which is not a difficult number to hit. Also, a common strategy is to "follow the energy" meaning even though my Active Pokémon is taking damage while energy is being attached to a benched Giratina EX, the benched, energy-laden Giratina EX would typically be Lysandre'd and attacked if not KOd.

Without a good secondary attacker (that's "easily" powered-up) in the deck (to inflict some early damage and/or to take hit(s)) and an inability to KO main opponents' big HP threats, retreating a wounded Giratina EXs does not address the deck's issue.

I did have a follow-on discussion with my friend and we discussed this deck at length, as well as his strategy. Some differences between the decks are his deck:

• Utilizes Shaymin EXs for supplemental card drawing,
• Incorporates a few Teammates, and
• Has a secondary attacker.

Back to the drawing board...

I think you nailed it with finding the best secondary attacker, the deck needs a solid early game strategy.

 

[AlteredPlatinum]

Hey, this is my first time on pokebeach.com and I am thinking of investing in the giratina/Vileplume but I do have one question. Hydreigon reduces the retreat cost of dragon type pokemon by two. If you happen to have 2 Hydreigon on the bench, does that mean the retreat cost is 4 less?(Free retreat for Giratina)

 

[TuxedoBlack]

Hey, this is my first time on pokebeach.com and I am thinking of investing in the giratina/Vileplume but I do have one question. Hydreigon reduces the retreat cost of dragon type pokemon by two. If you happen to have 2 Hydreigon on the bench, does that mean the retreat cost is 4 less?(Free retreat for Giratina)

I believe Retreat Cost reduction is not "stackable"; so only a total of CC Retreat Cost reduction could be applied regardless of the number of Hydreigon EXs were on your bench.