Discussion Zoroark-Gx or not Zoroark-Gx

Laurier_Ex

Laurier_Ex

Ninja master
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There as been a lot of talk lately about the state of the game in the expanded format and the way things are getting out of control with Zoroark-Gx. I found recent articles and podcasts discussing the issues that Zoroark-Gx brings to the format and debates around what should be banned to make the format healthy again (check out Robin Schulz and Xander Pero article, Seagrove TCG's Youtube debate and 6 prizes 28th Podcast).

With that being said I was interested in hearing people's opinion on that topic. What do you think should be banned? Do you enjoy the current expanded format? I personally have 4 copies of Zoroark-Gx and I do not enjoy playing the card at all. My personal opinion on the matter is that they should bring back Hex Maniac and Puzzle of Time and ban Zoroark-Gx, Lusamine and Deliquent.
 
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To be honest, I stopped playing the game because of the state of things. There doesn't seem to be any interest in game balance (not that I think balance should be the end all) because of the continued release of things people think are bad for the game, like the setup Ability and the refusal of proper ban list usage like banning Wally instead of the actual issue. For me, the tournaments I have access to are all Expanded and they just aren't fun to play.

To answer your question, I personally think DCE should be banned simply because it makes lazy card design too accessible. I've always said that DCE should be used only for Colorless and stop lazily placing [C][C] cost on cards and stop making them synergize with X-Ball like attacks. In general they should be get rid of cards that allow easy access to the discard pile without some kind of cost but this is just a problem with the design of the game.
 
I think, with all the Buzzwole and Lycanroc decks going around in Standard and Expanded, Zororark will be kept in check for a while until a new trend arises.
And personally, I'm ok with the current ban list and don't understand why you'd want Delinquent to be banned over Hex Maniac. Thanks for posting!
 
DragonFang101 said:
I think, with all the Buzzwole and Lycanroc decks going around in Standard and Expanded, Zororark will be kept in check for a while until a new trend arises.
And personally, I'm ok with the current ban list and don't understand why you'd want Delinquent to be banned over Hex Maniac. Thanks for posting!
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I am talking here specifically about expanded because i believe Zoroark is not a problem in standard format. If you look closely at the matchup you will see that this is by no means one sided for the Buzzwole player. Zoroark in expanded can OHKO Buzzwole with the help of Sky Field and it's consistency gives it very good odds of pulling it has early as turn 2 with only a single energy attachment. You can also easily include Psychic attackers to help you out. In the current meta, there is a good chance that the Zoroark player will play a stall variant and make your life miserable from turn 1 and make you brick. Have a look on Limitlesstcg.com and Buzzwole does not even come close to Zoroark as it currently stands. In fact, Buzzwole does not really puts Zoroark in check.

As for Deliquent, it has been used in the past but it is now getting out of control. Marshadow's Let loose ability now makes it much more likely that you will pull the combo because it is much more easy to draw into Marshadow than it is to draw into Red Card. Personally i would rather be chain Hex for a few turns than be brought down to 1-2 cards. Hex Maniac was mainly banned because it allowed Zoroark to bypass Sudowoodo's ability. Chaining Hex Maniac is just icing on the cake.

Zoroark is too powerful. The card was very badly designed. I understand how power creep works but something is just not right here. You make a supporter Pokemon that has arguably one of the best abilities (if not the best because the ability stacks which is not the case with most other abilities) and give it an attack that can easily dish up to 210dmg for a single energy attachment. Tapu Lele-Gx was already bad imo because it has no weakness but that is another topic.
 
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How exactly is Zoroark "being kept in check" by Buzz/Lycanrock when Zoroark keeps getting better results both in Standard and Expaned?

Banning DCE is a horrible idea.

In Standard, Zoroark is not broken anymore due to it not having access to Puzzle, Brigette, and also due to the fact that now there is no easy way to get special energy back from the discard. However, it is obviously still good, and in all honesty I don't see a problem with it in that format and it's going to rotate soon anyway.
However, if TPCi wants to keep Expanded an official format, they really should ban both Sky Field and the eggs. I'm still not sure why they couldn't get the banhammer this summer instead of Ghetsis and Hex.
 
Wechselbalg said:
How exactly is Zoroark "being kept in check" by Buzz/Lycanrock when Zoroark keeps getting better results both in Standard and Expaned?

Banning DCE is a horrible idea.

In Standard, Zoroark is not broken anymore due to it not having access to Puzzle, Brigette, and also due to the fact that now there is no easy way to get special energy back from the discard. However, it is obviously still good, and in all honesty I don't see a problem with it in that format and it's going to rotate soon anyway.
However, if TPCi wants to keep Expanded an official format, they really should ban both Sky Field and the eggs. I'm still not sure why they couldn't get the banhammer this summer instead of Ghetsis and Hex.
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Even if Buzz/Lyc isn't making much of a difference, Zoroark would be more powerful without them.
 
Personally I think the best thing to do is to get rid of Expanded altogether as the whole idea is inherently flawed.
When Exeggcute was printed in Plasma Blast, and when Sky Field was printed in Roaring Skies, Pokemon had no idea they would release Zoroark-GX.
When Delinquent was printed in BreakPoint, Pokemon had no idea they would release Marshadow.
When Archeops was printed in Noble Victories, Pokemon had no idea they would release Maxie's.
The only thing wrong with Expanded is that cards are in it when they were not made to be in it in the first place. This isn't the fault of Zoroark, Delinquent, Archeops or DCE, it's the fault of the structure of Expanded in general.

That said, if Expanded must be kept ban Zoroark and keep the current ban list:
Hex should still be banned-it makes ability decks unplayable.
Ghetsis should still be banned because of the T1 combo.
Wally should still be banned because of Trev.
Puzzles should still be banned because, even without Zoroark, A9tales makes them ridiculous.
FoGP and Archeops should still be banned because they were poorly designed cards in the first place.
Zoroark-GX is still too overpowered and should be banned.
Lusamine should not be banned! Mill decks are not unfair-they are easily beaten by aggro decks. Infinite loops exist already in Pokemon, there's no need to ban Lusamine because it's an infinite loop.
The banning of DCE would be ridiculous-DCE has always been in Pokemon and always will be. Case closed.
 
Ban sky field and dimension valley there you go no longer will zoroark be busted and trev wont be able to make resurgence without d-vally that is the fastest way to make decks not be so overpowered. It zoroark is banned which it wont but but if it was it would not be banned until its left standards same with forest
 
So, on standard, is Zoroark-GX still a threat? I'm seeing many Zoroark-GX decks on internet winning points, but personally I just saw one person play it in a league which let proxies be used. Looks like it does require a lot of skill to use, people here said me Zoroark-GX's decks always rely on building another powerful but slow monster, drawing necessary cards to make the other one "full", is this true?

I've seen a Lycanroc-GX user with it, seems pretty common on the internet right? On japanese sites I've seen Gardevoir-GX + Zoroark-GX, which also looks cool, is it possible to be so flexible with this monster? I'm playing a Malamar Deck + Necrozma + Necrozma Wings and I've seen other persons with almost the same deck as me, this makes me feel uncomfortable. :D
 
Wechselbalg said:
How exactly is Zoroark "being kept in check" by Buzz/Lycanrock when Zoroark keeps getting better results both in Standard and Expaned?

Banning DCE is a horrible idea.

In Standard, Zoroark is not broken anymore due to it not having access to Puzzle, Brigette, and also due to the fact that now there is no easy way to get special energy back from the discard. However, it is obviously still good, and in all honesty I don't see a problem with it in that format and it's going to rotate soon anyway.
However, if TPCi wants to keep Expanded an official format, they really should ban both Sky Field and the eggs. I'm still not sure why they couldn't get the banhammer this summer instead of Ghetsis and Hex.
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I believe that the only way to solve the problem is to ban Zoroark-Gx. They tried to ban something else than Zoroark-Gx last time remember? They banned Hex Maniac, Puzzle of Time and Ghetsis which where all part of Zoroark's domination. Now we have some Garbotoxin/Klefki variant to replace Hex Maniac and with Ditto PS playing Muk or Garbodor is a joke. We have the Red Card/Silent Lab/Deliquent combo to replace Ghetsis and make it even worse than it was before. And finally, we have the Oranguru ULP and Lusamine to replace Puzzle of Time. This shows us quite frankly how a deck playing with twice as many cards in their hand as they should can adapt and find a way out and beyond.

I agree with the arguments made on 6prizes 28th Podcast. Zoroark-Gx has proved that it does not need Sky Field, Egg's or DCE to be OP. It can just always find another way to play and adapt to the situation in expanded. Without DCE we will see some Guzzlord-Gx cheep shot variant and i am not even talking about the upcoming TagTeam's. Without Sky Field we will still be stuck with the stall variant that does not need it. And without Egg's they will include something else like Giratina. Banning these cards will kill a lot of Expanded decks without solving the problem and some of these cards are what actually makes expanded a different and fun format. Zoroark-Gx is not fun.
 
RisingRaichuu said:
Lusamine should not be banned! Mill decks are not unfair-they are easily beaten by aggro decks. Infinite loops exist already in Pokemon, there's no need to ban Lusamine because it's an infinite loop.
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Typically, in other card games, this is true, but in Pokemon, this is typically false. Aggro decks play so few resources that it is possible for control's denial to overcome that power. If you want to see this, just look at AGG's video from today. In it, his Zoroark is put against an aggressive Rayquza list, and handily wins. That being said, what other infinite loops do you speak of? Lusamine's is powerful because it doesn't require an attack, and gets back very powerful supporters.
RisingRaichuu said:
FoGP and Archeops should still be banned because they were poorly designed cards in the first place.
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Barring Archeops in lieu of the new Kabutops and Omastar, should we ban Maxie's instead? Are those locks too oppressive for T1?

Personally, I propose a Maxies ban and an Archeops unban, and a Zoroark ban. I also advocate for unbanning Ghetsis and Hex with erratas. Ghetsis should be left the same, with the stipulation that it cannot be played turn 1. Hex should be changed to a prism star.
 
Latte1504 said:
ypically, in other card games, this is true, but in Pokemon, this is typically false. Aggro decks play so few resources that it is possible for control's denial to overcome that power. If you want to see this, just look at AGG's video from today. In it, his Zoroark is put against an aggressive Rayquza list, and handily wins. That being said, what other infinite loops do you speak of? Lusamine's is powerful because it doesn't require an attack, and gets back very powerful supporters.
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This is true, but not always. From my experience aggro lists tend to outspeed control decks. Articuno GX probably helps from the control perspective though. If the Ray player wanted to guarantee the result he could run an Oranguru UPR.

Latte1504 said:
Barring Archeops in lieu of the new Kabutops and Omastar, should we ban Maxie's instead? Are those locks too oppressive for T1?

Personally, I propose a Maxies ban and an Archeops unban, and a Zoroark ban. I also advocate for unbanning Ghetsis and Hex with erratas. Ghetsis should be left the same, with the stipulation that it cannot be played turn 1. Hex should be changed to a prism star.
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When Team Up releases, Maxies must and will be banned, but only when February comes. Archeops should stay banned because Ditto Prism makes it splashable in basically every deck T2.
 
The amount of people saying DCE shouldn't be banned because its always been apart of the game is baffling. DCE hasn't always been apart of the game. Its history has been Base Set, HGSS and now. The card needs to be banned because of the cancer it enables in the game. Zoro, Toad and the many "drop a DCE to nuke" attacks. The best thing to do in general is to just get rid of Expanded since it is the problem with the game.
 
crystal_pidgeot said:
The amount of people saying DCE shouldn't be banned because its always been apart of the game is baffling. DCE hasn't always been apart of the game. Its history has been Base Set, HGSS and now. The card needs to be banned because of the cancer it enables in the game. Zoro, Toad and the many "drop a DCE to nuke" attacks. The best thing to do in general is to just get rid of Expanded since it is the problem with the game.
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DCE would affect the meta a lot. I am scared of what would result from this. It would help against those cheap shot attacks that only require 2 colorless energy hence 1 attachment you are talking about and that could be a good thing. On the other hand, it would remove a lot of Pokemon that have 2 colorless +1 attacks from being viable (or make them even worse). Things like Zygarde-Gx, Guzzlord-Gx, Dialga-Gx or Eeveelutions.
 
Laurier_Ex said:
I believe that the only way to solve the problem is to ban Zoroark-Gx. They tried to ban something else than Zoroark-Gx last time remember? They banned Hex Maniac, Puzzle of Time and Ghetsis which where all part of Zoroark's domination. Now we have some Garbotoxin/Klefki variant to replace Hex Maniac and with Ditto PS playing Muk or Garbodor is a joke. We have the Red Card/Silent Lab/Deliquent combo to replace Ghetsis and make it even worse than it was before. And finally, we have the Oranguru ULP and Lusamine to replace Puzzle of Time. This shows us quite frankly how a deck playing with twice as many cards in their hand as they should can adapt and find a way out and beyond.
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I am personally not that trigger happy when it comes to bans - I believe that the cards should be banned are the ones that are very obvious game design flaws, and I think there are actually only 2 cards on the current banlist that are 100% justified and those are Lysandre's Trump Card and FOGP. (Not saying that the game as a whole doesn't have other design flaws but I don't want to get into that again..) The one I'd like the most to be included on the list is Exeggcute, because even before Zoroark I personally thought that card was broken, especially because of the idiotic ruling about the "once per turn" clause. I would not want to ban Sky Field but because of Zoroark it has to be, as it elevates Zoroark to a better than average attacker in addition to being a good control archetype. ULP Oranguru and Lusamine are not straight replacements for Puzzle of Time and Giratina isn't a replacement for Exeggcute either because you can can't spam it with Trade, plus if there is no Sky Field then Zoroark can't just keep filling up the bench with Giratinas.

As for having to deal with Zoroark as a control archetype - it's not the only one, and Red Card/Delinquent is not that hard to pull off with some other control decks either.

crystal_pidgeot said:
The amount of people saying DCE shouldn't be banned because its always been apart of the game is baffling. DCE hasn't always been apart of the game. Its history has been Base Set, HGSS and now. The card needs to be banned because of the cancer it enables in the game. Zoro, Toad and the many "drop a DCE to nuke" attacks. The best thing to do in general is to just get rid of Expanded since it is the problem with the game.
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Then enjoy the meta only consisting of "T2 180"energy accelerating aggro decks/ 1 basic energy attachment decks. Oh wait, it's already like that...
 
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crystal_pidgeot said:
The amount of people saying DCE shouldn't be banned because its always been apart of the game is baffling. DCE hasn't always been apart of the game. Its history has been Base Set, HGSS and now. The card needs to be banned because of the cancer it enables in the game. Zoro, Toad and the many "drop a DCE to nuke" attacks. The best thing to do in general is to just get rid of Expanded since it is the problem with the game.
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Zoroark and Toad aren't the only cards that attack with DCE. If you want Zoro and Toad player to be forced to attach twice or accelerate, then change attack cost with an errata instead of banning a staple card that's built the meta and makes some less powerful cards playable. Cards are designed with DCE in mind and they have been for ages. All you do if you ban DCE is make energy acceleration a necessity in decks that attack with more than one energy.

Zoro will find a way to play without DCE. Whether that's with dark patch, custom catcher, or just normal two attachments.

EDIT: Forgot to add, a better solution to start off with would be to shrink down expanded so it doesn't encompass every card released in the past... what, 5 years?
 
alyL said:
Zoroark and Toad aren't the only cards that attack with DCE. If you want Zoro and Toad player to be forced to attach twice or accelerate, then change attack cost with an errata instead of banning a staple card that's built the meta and makes some less powerful cards playable. Cards are designed with DCE in mind and they have been for ages. All you do if you ban DCE is make energy acceleration a necessity in decks that attack with more than one energy.

Zoro will find a way to play without DCE. Whether that's with dark patch, custom catcher, or just normal two attachments.

EDIT: Forgot to add, a better solution to start off with would be to shrink down expanded so it doesn't encompass every card released in the past... what, 5 years?
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May decks will find a way without DCE. DCE was only ever made for colorless Pokemon since they couldn't hit for weakness to give the type something and maybe Base Charizard. Zoro would have to wait two turns to attack instead of one, which is fair and with a huge card pool in Expanded, you never know what else the card would break. The issue with DCE is it makes too many things accessible. I believe there are what, two decks that only run four DCE. Those decks wouldn't exist with it banned. I am in favor of replacing DCE with a version only Colorless Pokemon could use and a Prism Star DCE. The game can evolve but the community doesn't want it to for some reason. Bans make games better and a lot of the bans TPC/i has done don't make any real sense.

Don't ban Zoroark-GX, ban DCE because it hits all cards like it the same way. Night March and Flareon lose a lot of power. Toad decks stop being a thing and X-Ball like attacks lose a lot of power. The list goes on. Players will always find a way to break the game but thats the fun of it. Honestly, any card that can be played for an effect that can't be stopped by an opponent should be looked at. The main issue is no cards exist that cross a players turn. When you play a DCE, you can take Prize cards. When a Sky Field comes down, something will die. Sure you can kill the card next turn but you already lost two Prize cards and when they play another one (and they will because of the stupid amount of draw in the game), you will lose more Prize cards as if you did nothing to stop it. The whole game just has balance issues.
 
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