Discussion Zoroark-Gx or not Zoroark-Gx

[Merovingian]

DCE isn't going anywhere and neither is Zoroark-GX.

DCE has been around forever. That's not the excuse. But it has becomes so ingrained in the game's design that it's sort of an unspoken factor in making cards attacks and effects. That said, I REALLY think they goofed in Zoroark-GX's attack cost.

Zoroark-GX is going NOWHERE. They do have seperate banlists for Unlimited, Expanded, and Standard. So they COULD ban it in Expanded and leave it alone in Standard. That won't happen because of Ultra Shiny.

Remember, TPCi is a business first.

It makes zero sense from a business standpoint to observe the popularity of Zoroark-GX, see that an alternate art (an alternate hard to find art, at that) has been printed in Japan, and then ban it (closing off probably the BIGGEST selling point of a reprint English/Europe/everywhere else Ultra Shiny set). From a business standpoint, they won't close the door off to a possible Shiny Zoroark-GX.

Now, Zoroark-GX has a tendency to take regular cards and then have them highlighted in such a way that they prove to be WAY too toxic for the current environment. Just look at Puzzle of Time, Ghetsis, and Hex Maniac.

Currently, yes, Expanded is a bit of a mess. And the biggest culprit at the moment is the "Exodia" combo (Red Card + Sky Field + Delinquent + Peeking Red Card). The combo itself CAN be done on turn 1 and drop you to a 1 card hand, that 1 card, if it's a good one (like Professor Sycamore), can be whisked away and potentially have you dead draw into something. You then strart your turn with another card, MAYBE something good. Maybe not. But the fact that the deck can get this insane combo out turn 1, as well as do it with enoygh consistency to get Top 4 in Anaheim; should raise some flags.

TPCi have made a stance to make it to where players have at least a turn to respond and be able to play the game (Wally ban) before they get locked out of their minds. Having your hand struck down to one, where you MIGHT draw out of it, is debatable as to if that qualifies as being able to "play the game" and if they'll do anything about it.

If they DO decide to do anything about Expanded; if I were to place bets on anything, it'd be between Red Card and Delinquent.

Red Card drops your hand at virtually no other cost than being an Item. To which it could be locked out of using against certain decks, which isn't really a consequence at all. It's also the catalyst of getting the combo to function.

Delinquent uses your supporter for the turn, requires a stadium in play, and the opponent gets to choose which 3 cards to discard. All sounds fair--at face value. The problem is that, if you have Red Card banned, an opponent can STILL DO THE COMBO using something like SHL Marshadow and having Delinquent in the discard pile (to be retrieved by VS Seeker) and happening to draw into Peeking Red Card.

Getting rid of Delinquent will actually kill the combo, and we just have to deal with Red Card and Marshadow.

That said, the next banlist announcement is the WEEK OF DALLAS. I'm not sure if changes to the banlist would be effective immediately (if any) or later in the month. But one thing is for sure: Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick has to get banned before Team Up is released.

 

[alyL]

May decks will find a way without DCE. DCE was only ever made for colorless Pokemon since they couldn't hit for weakness to give the type something and maybe Base Charizard.

What makes you say that?

Zoro would have to wait two turns to attack instead of one, which is fair and with a huge card pool in Expanded, you never know what else the card would break.

Uh... Zoro has to wait two turns to attack anyways when you factor in a turn where it's vulnerable as a Zorua.

The issue with DCE is it makes too many things accessible.

I don't see how that's an issue unless it's specifically with the cards it enables, not the DCE itself. Ultra Ball grants access to many different cards as well, is that a problem too?

I believe there are what, two decks that only run four DCE. Those decks wouldn't exist with it banned.

There are also plenty of other decks that run 4 DCE and some rainbow/basics. You kill many cards if you ban DCE, even some that aren't problematic.

I am in favor of replacing DCE with a version only Colorless Pokemon could use and a Prism Star DCE. The game can evolve but the community doesn't want it to for some reason. Bans make games better and a lot of the bans TPC/i has done don't make any real sense.

The game can evolve in other ways for other reasons. You act like, no matter what, the game evolving is a good thing under any circumstances. We could ban Ultra Ball and force the game to evolve as well, so it must be a good thing.

Don't ban Zoroark-GX, ban DCE because it hits all cards like it the same way.

It also hits plenty of other cards that aren't problematic the same way. Why would you want that? Bans on a card as basic, versatile, and widely used as DCE just causes more problems while possibly, possibly, fixing one.

Night March and Flareon lose a lot of power. Toad decks stop being a thing and X-Ball like attacks lose a lot of power. The list goes on.

Toad decks can stop being a thing without killing lots of other decks. Of course the list goes on, that's who widely used DCE is and that's exactly why you can't really just ban it.

Players will always find a way to break the game but thats the fun of it. Honestly, any card that can be played for an effect that can't be stopped by an opponent should be looked at.

Is that not how... every card in the game functions?

The main issue is no cards exist that cross a players turn.

That's not an issue, I'm very thankful to not have that.

When you play a DCE, you can take Prize cards.

Not necessarily. The attack has to only cost a DCE, it needs to do enough damage to KO something on your board, and that pokemon that is knocked out needs to reward prize cards.

Let's ban basic energy as well because when I play it, I'm capable of taking prize cards.

When a Sky Field comes down, something will die.

Primal Clash Ninetales, GUR Sudowoodo, Shuckle GX (in the case of Zoro which attacks with only a DCE).

Sure you can kill the card next turn but you already lost two Prize cards and when they play another one (and they will because of the stupid amount of draw in the game), you will lose more Prize cards as if you did nothing to stop it. The whole game just has balance issues.

If the amount of draw in this game is so stupid why are you having such issues setting up?. You make it sound like your opponent is taking 3-6 turns in a row drawing perfectly each time.

 

[Alex Leblanc]

The amount of people saying DCE shouldn't be banned because its always been apart of the game is baffling. DCE hasn't always been apart of the game. Its history has been Base Set, HGSS and now. The card needs to be banned because of the cancer it enables in the game. Zoro, Toad and the many "drop a DCE to nuke" attacks. The best thing to do in general is to just get rid of Expanded since it is the problem with the game.

The amount of people saying DCE shouldn't be banned because its always been apart of the game is baffling. DCE hasn't always been apart of the game. Its history has been Base Set, HGSS and now. The card needs to be banned because of the cancer it enables in the game. Zoro, Toad and the many "drop a DCE to nuke" attacks. The best thing to do in general is to just get rid of Expanded since it is the problem with the game.

I definitely agree, DCE should be banned, it isn't a part of the games history, that's Charizard's job. Anyway, I think DCE should be banned in expanded but kept in standard. In the next year, Zoroark will be rotated, and with DCE banned in expanded, Zoro wouldn't be as banned. I also think Sky Field is quite good, potentially banned, maybe not.

 

[alyL]

I definitely agree, DCE should be banned, it isn't a part of the games history, that's Charizard's job. Anyway, I think DCE should be banned in expanded but kept in standard. In the next year, Zoroark will be rotated, and with DCE banned in expanded, Zoro wouldn't be as banned. I also think Sky Field is quite good, potentially banned, maybe not.

You didn't mention why you think it should be banned. Care to elaborate?

 

[Alex Leblanc]

You didn't mention why you think it should be banned. Care to elaborate?

Of course, my apology. It is quite a lazy card as other have said. Pop it on cards such as Seismitoad EX, Zoro GX, Shaymin, Etc. I feel like it's an necessary gain for those cards when they are quite good enough. Now, in DCE's defense, if they have a better way of dealing with Zoro (because I think Zoro is OP) then banning DCE wouldn't be as necessary. Then again, there are plenty of energy cards that make decks so much better, such as rainbow energy, strong energy, and counter energy, but none of those decks have been dominating since they were first released, which Zoro has been. I just think They need to do something about Zoroark, and contradicting my last post, banning DCE isn't the best way to do it, Zoro can still attack with T1 and T2 energy attachment, but my main point is to do something about Zoroark. It is too good.

 

[alyL]

Of course, my apology. It is quite a lazy card as other have said. Pop it on cards such as Seismitoad EX, Zoro GX, Shaymin, Etc. I feel like it's an necessary gain for those cards when they are quite good enough. Now, in DCE's defense, if they have a better way of dealing with Zoro (because I think Zoro is OP) then banning DCE wouldn't be as necessary. Then again, there are plenty of energy cards that make decks so much better, such as rainbow energy, strong energy, and counter energy, but none of those decks have been dominating since they were first released, which Zoro has been. I just think They need to do something about Zoroark, and contradicting my last post, banning DCE isn't the best way to do it, Zoro can still attack with T1 and T2 energy attachment, but my main point is to do something about Zoroark. It is too good.

Thank you.

I disagree in that Zoro needs something done to it. Sure, it's very good, but I don't think that's a reason to ban and neither does TPCI as far as we can tell from history of banned cards. I think banning should only be used when a card prevents the opponent from playing the game, such as the Red Card, Delinquent, Peeking Red Card combo.

I also disagree with that DCE is lazy. By those standards, anything is "lazy". Attaching a single basic fighting energy to a Buzzwole and doing 120 is lazy as well. Also keep in mind that the only reason DCE is so widely used is because of the cards' attack cost. Zoro, Toad, Night March, Raichu, Gallade, Vespiquen, all only make use of DCE because of the design of the Pokemon itself, not the fact that DCE is broken in some way.

That being said, I find DCE to be a decent balancing mechanic when an attack seems too strong for one basic, but would be too weak if it were two colored or 1 colored and 1 colorless. You're also limited to 4, and they're easier to get rid of due to cards like Faba, and Enhanced Hammer. IIRC there's also a Pokemon that can't be attacked by special energies, but I can't remember who at the moment.

To counter your point about:

Then again, there are plenty of energy cards that make decks so much better, such as rainbow energy, strong energy, and counter energy, but none of those decks have been dominating since they were first released, which Zoro has been

There are inherent differences between the energies. First off, the type specific special energies are obviously not as versatile as Rainbow, DCE, and Counter. Counter only works on non GXs and while behind on prizes. Rainbow can be easily replaced by a basic energy in any deck that doesn't specifically rely on RB. This leaves DCE, which is the most unique, in that nothing else can really do what it can. I don't see this as a bad thing, and it doesn't make the card broken.

Then let's say DCE does get banned, now we're stuck with Dark Patch Zoro decks, or Vikavolt Zoro decks, or some other crazy combination that's essentially energy acceleration + Zoroark. Decks will be pretty boring then because it will all be about energy acceleration. Then everyone will move on to discussing Dark Patch, Water Patch, Naganadel/Quagsre, etc. bans because of what it enables.

The true problem is expanded format itself. It is too large for it to be a competitively viable format, compared to Standard which is a lot more curated. Too many cards that were created during a time when other cards weren't even considered to be a thing. Look at Sky Field and Zoro, or Delinquent and Marshadow, or the Espeon EX spread decks.

I would shrink down Expanded to be maybe XY base and on, just as a general fix to it. The Zoroark problem can't really be fixed without hurting something else in the process, so I'd let it be as strong as it is.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

What makes you say that?

I didn't care enough to make a huge post but sure, why not. I say this because It has synergy with Charizard Base and that every other type could hit a weakness but Colorless and needed something to draw the type in and a double energy does that nicely. Also, attack cost of [C][C] weren't are that common in those days like it is now.

Uh... Zoro has to wait two turns to attack anyways when you factor in a turn where it's vulnerable as a Zorua.

Completely missed the point.

I don't see how that's an issue unless it's specifically with the cards it enables, not the DCE itself. Ultra Ball grants access to many different cards as well, is that a problem too?

Ultra Ball is a great example actually. This card hasn't ever been in the history of the game. We had to use Supporters or things like Dual Ball and Pokemon Communication to find Pokemon, which could fail or couldn't always be played. Pidgeot FRLG was the best way to find a Pokemon you needed. Now, Ultra Ball shouldn't be on the radar since I find it to be a rather harmless card but if it should be banned, it should be banned for the same reason Pot of Greed is banned in Yu-Gi-Oh and that's the "after" effect of it is too strong. A player with a hand size of two (after getting outplayed by an opponent) top decks an Ultra Ball, plays it and discards the only two cards in hand, searches for a Shaymin-EX, plays it and +6, plays more cards and drops a Professor Sycamore and then +6 again, drops DCE and wins the game. That one card let him (or her, I'm not sexist) +12 completely new cards for the win. This happens WAY too much in the game. One single card won the match. Many without bias would see this as being something too strong because of the combos it enables. One for One in Yu-Gi-Oh was also banned for this reason.

There are also plenty of other decks that run 4 DCE and some rainbow/basics. You kill many cards if you ban DCE, even some that aren't problematic.

Well yeah. I want to play my m-Pidgeot-EX deck but I'm objective and want whats best for the game. I had a deck that used Lysandre's Trump Card and it did not break it but just because a few other decks aren't as abusive with it doesn't mean there isn't a balance issue with the card. NO CARD GAME should have a FREE effect to recycle all played resources. DCE breaks a lot of decks considering they aren't even the targeted type for the Energy. They use the card better than the Colorless type. Keep in mind I have zero issue with DCE existing. The problem is the card makes too many attackers accessible to the point its the selling point. If you look at many other cards since "new" Pokemon, many have the [C][C] cost built into it.

The game can evolve in other ways for other reasons. You act like, no matter what, the game evolving is a good thing under any circumstances. We could ban Ultra Ball and force the game to evolve as well, so it must be a good thing.

The game can evolve. While I have objections to Ultra Ball's design (for what I said above), the design isn't lazy. It's the after effect that matters. DCE isn't a poorly designed card, its TPC is using it as a crutch for making new cards. Why do most Pokemon-EX and Pokemon-GX have a [C][C] cost tied to them? Most Pokemon in the game only had one [C] and rarely two. The game getting a ban list means its evolving. It can evolve in many way but taking away DCE means people can't just rely on it for splashable tech.

It also hits plenty of other cards that aren't problematic the same way. Why would you want that? Bans on a card as basic, versatile, and widely used as DCE just causes more problems while possibly, possibly, fixing one.

Bans don't play favorites. Wally ban hurts WAY more decks than just banning Trev. Its not only Zoroark that gets hurt. Its quite a huge list actually.

Toad decks can stop being a thing without killing lots of other decks. Of course the list goes on, that's who widely used DCE is and that's exactly why you can't really just ban it.

How so? Toad becomes less powerful without the DCE.

Is that not how... every card in the game functions?

The point of the comment was to say "ban something, something replaces it".

That's not an issue, I'm very thankful to not have that.

This is why Pokemon needs to stop making "play this and win" kind of cards. Counters dont matter if you can't use them to prevent falling behind in the game. What good does playing Field Blower do if my opponent played a DCE and Sky Field knocks out one of my Pokemon. Field Blower doesn't get those Prize cards back. I can do whatever I want and my opponent can do nothing to stop it.

Card games like this without cross turn play have to take special care to not make something as powerful.

Not necessarily. The attack has to only cost a DCE, it needs to do enough damage to KO something on your board, and that pokemon that is knocked out needs to reward prize cards.

We are talking competitive play her. No one expects to take two Prize cards with Peck.

Let's ban basic energy as well because when I play it, I'm capable of taking prize cards.

Sure, why not. While we're at it, lets ban decks too.

Primal Clash Ninetales, GUR Sudowoodo, Shuckle GX (in the case of Zoro which attacks with only a DCE).

Tech exist, yeah.

If the amount of draw in this game is so stupid why are you having such issues setting up?. You make it sound like your opponent is taking 3-6 turns in a row drawing perfectly each time.

I never said anything about setting up.

 

[alyL]

I didn't care enough to make a huge post but sure, why not. I say this because It has synergy with Charizard Base and that every other type could hit a weakness but Colorless and needed something to draw the type in and a double energy does that nicely. Also, attack cost of [C][C] weren't are that common in those days like it is now.

Bold of you to decide what a card's intended purpose is/was, but ok.

Completely missed the point.

Likewise.

Ultra Ball is a great example actually. This card hasn't ever been in the history of the game. We had to use Supporters or things like Dual Ball and Pokemon Communication to find Pokemon, which could fail or couldn't always be played. Pidgeot FRLG was the best way to find a Pokemon you needed. Now, Ultra Ball shouldn't be on the radar since I find it to be a rather harmless card but if it should be banned, it should be banned for the same reason Pot of Greed is banned in Yu-Gi-Oh and that's the "after" effect of it is too strong. A player with a hand size of two (after getting outplayed by an opponent) top decks an Ultra Ball, plays it and discards the only two cards in hand, searches for a Shaymin-EX, plays it and +6, plays more cards and drops a Professor Sycamore and then +6 again, drops DCE and wins the game. That one card let him (or her, I'm not sexist) +12 completely new cards for the win. This happens WAY too much in the game. One single card won the match. Many without bias would see this as being something too strong because of the combos it enables. One for One in Yu-Gi-Oh was also banned for this reason.

That's not a problem with Ultra Ball, that's a problem with Pokemon acting almost like draw supporters, while reaping the benefits of being searchable with a ball card and not taking supporter for that turn.

You can't just "drop DCE and win". You're ignoring all context of the actual game and you're assuming a Pokemon can take 6 prizes in one turn with a single DCE on turn one.

Well yeah. I want to play my m-Pidgeot-EX deck but I'm objective and want whats best for the game. I had a deck that used Lysandre's Trump Card and it did not break it but just because a few other decks aren't as abusive with it doesn't mean there isn't a balance issue with the card. NO CARD GAME should have a FREE effect to recycle all played resources. DCE breaks a lot of decks considering they aren't even the targeted type for the Energy. They use the card better than the Colorless type. Keep in mind I have zero issue with DCE existing. The problem is the card makes too many attackers accessible to the point its the selling point. If you look at many other cards since "new" Pokemon, many have the [C][C] cost built into it.

Lysandre's Trump Card is a very, very different card to DCE. The difference is LTC recycled entire matches, extended them to be extremely long, and basically denied a win condition built into the game. DCE doesn't do any of those.

"The problem is the card makes too many attackers accessible to the point its the selling point. If you look at many other cards since "new" Pokemon, many have the [C][C] cost built into it."
So the true issue is an over-saturation of [C][C] attackers. I don't see a problem with versatile decks. Also, if you look at most popular DCE decks, they're pretty focused on one attacker or one type of attacker. Zoro, Toad, Night March, etc. all use other energy for their secondary attackers (if they even have secondary attackers) except for maybe some archetypes like ZoroRoc or ZoroPod, but Lycanroc and Golisopod use a fighting/grass energy as well.

Your point is also pretty moot when you consider rainbow energy also allows many attackers to be accessible, all in the same deck, yet no one is crying for that to be banned either.

The game can evolve. While I have objections to Ultra Ball's design (for what I said above), the design isn't lazy. It's the after effect that matters. DCE isn't a poorly designed card, its TPC is using it as a crutch for making new cards. Why do most Pokemon-EX and Pokemon-GX have a [C][C] cost tied to them? Most Pokemon in the game only had one [C] and rarely two. The game getting a ban list means its evolving. It can evolve in many way but taking away DCE means people can't just rely on it for splashable tech.

[C][C] is a great balancing mechanic that can be used for attacks that would be too weak with [X][C], or [X][X], or too strong with [X].

I looked at the largest and most recent set released, LOT, to see if what you say applies. Out of the 13 GXs released in that set, only two had [C][C] in their attack costs, Sigilyph and Lugia. Even if that's inaccurate looking at other sets, I can't say it's a problem that makes DCE worthy of banning. Maybe instead of suggesting to kill off several decks, popular and rogue, in the format, you can try to suggest something constructive, such as making more cards that don't benefit from DCE.

Bans don't play favorites. Wally ban hurts WAY more decks than just banning Trev. Its not only Zoroark that gets hurt. Its quite a huge list actually.

That's my exact point. Also, I do disagree with Wally ban for the most part.

How so? Toad becomes less powerful without the DCE.

By banning Toad directly of course. If DCE were banned, Toad would just be using Aqua Patch

The point of the comment was to say "ban something, something replaces it".

I was focused more on the "Honestly, any card that can be played for an effect that can't be stopped by an opponent should be looked at." part.

This is why Pokemon needs to stop making "play this and win" kind of cards. Counters dont matter if you can't use them to prevent falling behind in the game. What good does playing Field Blower do if my opponent played a DCE and Sky Field knocks out one of my Pokemon. Field Blower doesn't get those Prize cards back. I can do whatever I want and my opponent can do nothing to stop it.

But you don't win by attacking with Zoroark once.

Field blower denies your opponent the ability to take another KO without using more of their precious resources. In that time, during your turn, it also allows you to set up your own KOs. Potentially with a non GX so you can trade 1 for 2 prizes.

Card games like this without cross turn play have to take special care to not make something as powerful.

Which is why expanded is a joke. TPCi was careful enough to not let it happen in Standard, but Expanded is less cared for and becomes a cesspool of way too many cards for the format's own good.

We are talking competitive play her. No one expects to take two Prize cards with Peck.

Riotous Beating still isn't guaranteed KO, they need a full bench + sky field. Neither is Night March, or Toad's attack, one of which requires Pokemon in the discard, the other can't KO much at all.

Sure, why not. While we're at it, lets ban decks too.

I agree. Ban cards as well, we can play with empty sleeves and make believe.

Tech exist, yeah.

So use them...

It can evolve in many way but taking away DCE means people can't just rely on it for splashable tech.

oh yeah... you don't like techs. My bad.

I never said anything about setting up.

But your entire argument relies on your opponent playing solitaire while you do nothing but pass. You have your own turns as well, which also give you opportunities to take your own KOs and set up your own counters.

 

[Latte1504]

I definitely agree, DCE should be banned, it isn't a part of the games history, that's Charizard's job. Anyway, I think DCE should be banned in expanded but kept in standard. In the next year, Zoroark will be rotated, and with DCE banned in expanded, Zoro wouldn't be as banned. I also think Sky Field is quite good, potentially banned, maybe not.

Let's define history. Do you mean in competitive play, or do you mean for casual, general, collector and player? If we mean for the competitive player, I would call it part of the games history. I can not name another card which has had an impact for as long and as wide as DCE. Base Set saw 2ish years of play, and was at least moderately played then, and since HGSS, it has seen a lot of play. In nutshell, what I am saying is that no other card has impacted the game significantly for half of the game's life.

 

[TorchHG]

Just my 2 cents worth, hoping to bring some new ideas but will reiterate some to put context in.

Zoroark-GX as a card does not seem to be a problem if you look at it on its own. It's strong as an individual card, but the issue lies with how many cards it combos with and what kinds of things it enables. The combos I'm speaking of are multiple card combos that enable strong plays (Double Puzzle of Time, Red Card / Stadium / Delinquent / Peeking Red Card). Also, in Expanded, the main downsides of Zoroark-GX are negated as Trade normally requires you to give up a card, but Propagation Exeggcute removes this downside, Riotous Beating's Damage Cap is raised to OHKO potential with Sky Field, and Ditto Prism Star gives you a fifth Zorua and helps setting up.

Now, each of these enabling cards I don't feel are necessarily problems, as Propagation Exeggcute enables Archie's Blastoise to have an easier setup without getting rid of too many resources, Sky Field enables M Rayquaza EX, and Ditto Prism Star allows decks to play multiple Stage 1 techs flexibly.

What I'm getting at is that banning enabling cards reduces the playability of other decks in the format, and any one card wouldn't be sufficient. Zoroark-GX has been very dominant for a long time in Expanded and I think has shown in enough circumstances that it's worthy of a ban. It's hard to say whether Pokemon will do that, as Zoroark-GX doesn't directly keep your opponent from playing the game, but I feel it's probably a better reason than what they verbalized for Puzzle of Time.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

Bold of you to decide what a card's intended purpose is/was, but ok.

Its obvious. The card was made with the colorless type with nothing existing at the time (design wise) that could benefit from such with Charizard and the colorless types being the only likely uses of the card. There are a handful of uses for it. Maybe Retreat Cost but Switch was a thing. I could be wrong but DCE was most likely made for the Colorless type and Charizard.

That's not a problem with Ultra Ball, that's a problem with Pokemon acting almost like draw supporters, while reaping the benefits of being searchable with a ball card and not taking supporter for that turn.

Agreed, which is why, maybe the card should exist in the game anymore?

You can't just "drop DCE and win". You're ignoring all context of the actual game and you're assuming a Pokemon can take 6 prizes in one turn with a single DCE on turn one.

Clearly, but you missed the point.

Lysandre's Trump Card is a very, very different card to DCE. The difference is LTC recycled entire matches, extended them to be extremely long, and basically denied a win condition built into the game. DCE doesn't do any of those.

Denying a win condition isn't a valid reason for a ban. A ton of cards do that. It would be a hard counter for decks like Durant. The expanded stall decks also draw out matches and deny several win conditions while preventing one player from playing the game. The point was to show that a ban affects all the smaller decks to hit the big one. It doesn't matter if <insert deck here> uses the card in a less powerful way, its the deck that put it in the forefront that justified the ban.

"The problem is the card makes too many attackers accessible to the point its the selling point. If you look at many other cards since "new" Pokemon, many have the [C][C] cost built into it."

So the true issue is an over-saturation of [C][C] attackers. I don't see a problem with versatile decks. Also, if you look at most popular DCE decks, they're pretty focused on one attacker or one type of attacker. Zoro, Toad, Night March, etc. all use other energy for their secondary attackers (if they even have secondary attackers) except for maybe some archetypes like ZoroRoc or ZoroPod, but Lycanroc and Golisopod use a fighting/grass energy as well.

Well, yeah. That was what people were saying. It's unreasonable to ban all those Pokemon. Just bad DCE and make a DCE Prism Star.

Your point is also pretty moot when you consider rainbow energy also allows many attackers to be accessible, all in the same deck, yet no one is crying for that to be banned either.

Red_Herring.jpeg

[C][C] is a great balancing mechanic that can be used for attacks that would be too weak with [X][C], or [X][X], or too strong with [X].

Except those attacks have been nukes.

I looked at the largest and most recent set released, LOT, to see if what you say applies. Out of the 13 GXs released in that set, only two had [C][C] in their attack costs, Sigilyph and Lugia. Even if that's inaccurate looking at other sets, I can't say it's a problem that makes DCE worthy of banning. Maybe instead of suggesting to kill off several decks, popular and rogue, in the format, you can try to suggest something constructive, such as making more cards that don't benefit from DCE.

I can't suggest anything since I dont make the cards. We'd have a Pidgey-GX if I did but try expanding your searches to [X][C][C] attacks. Attacks like this hardly existed.

By banning Toad directly of course. If DCE were banned, Toad would just be using Aqua Patch

I'd be fine with that. Aqua Patch is also harder to recycle than DCE. Generally anything that can lock a player in one turn should be avoided.

But you don't win by attacking with Zoroark once.

True but the damage output is too high for such a common cost.

Field blower denies your opponent the ability to take another KO without using more of their precious resources. In that time, during your turn, it also allows you to set up your own KOs. Potentially with a non GX so you can trade 1 for 2 prizes.

That is the key word there another. In a game where you can run four copies of a card, chances are they have other copies in hand and if they dont, the sheer amount of draw in standard decks means they can do it again the next turn.

Which is why expanded is a joke. TPCi was careful enough to not let it happen in Standard, but Expanded is less cared for and becomes a cesspool of way too many cards for the format's own good.

Standard has its issues.

Riotous Beating still isn't guaranteed KO, they need a full bench + sky field. Neither is Night March, or Toad's attack, one of which requires Pokemon in the discard, the other can't KO much at all.

How much expanded do you play?

But your entire argument relies on your opponent playing solitaire while you do nothing but pass. You have your own turns as well, which also give you opportunities to take your own KOs and set up your own counters.

Is there another way to play Pokemon I'm not aware about? I though I can do whatever I want during my turn before passing while my opponent watches.

 

[Expert_Occultist]

http://limitlesstcg.com/tournaments/?id=152
I wonder if folks in Japan are screaming for a Ray ban. What do they know that we don't?

 

[The Almighty Bidoof]

People need to realize something about DCE. There are HARD counters. Xurkitree shuts down all DCE decks not running Muk (Aegislash too :/). Faba guarentees they can only attack 4 times. E-Hammer slows them down. I can go on-and-on. There's no reason to ban cards that can easily be countered.

 

[cccfire]

What about specific card nerfs? Kinda like how Pokemon Catcher got reprinted with a coin flip conditional?
I guess it would be kinda hard to do it without granting them the ability to last through rotation, but it could be doable since alternate art is a thing now.
I could totally see DCE work with some sort of conditional, like maybe it needs another energy attachment other than it to work idk or it's only for colorless pokes.
For expanded cards they could reprint them with new conditionals as alternate arts through those Trainer Versus sets idk.

 

[alyL]

Agreed, which is why, maybe the card should exist in the game anymore?

My point is that Shaymin is the problem with what you said, not Ultra Ball.

Clearly, but you missed the point.

As far as I recall, you have not given a single realistic scenario where DCE is *actually* broken and wins the game. You just continue to use the phrase "drop a dce and win" as if that actually happens.

Denying a win condition isn't a valid reason for a ban. A ton of cards do that. It would be a hard counter for decks like Durant. The expanded stall decks also draw out matches and deny several win conditions while preventing one player from playing the game. The point was to show that a ban affects all the smaller decks to hit the big one. It doesn't matter if uses the card in a less powerful way, its the deck that put it in the forefront that justified the ban.

"The problem is the card makes too many attackers accessible to the point its the selling point. If you look at many other cards since "new" Pokemon, many have the [C][C] cost built into it."

What cards deny a win condition like Lysandre's Trump Card did?

I get your point, but it doesn't apply here because Zoroark is not a reason to ban DCE.

Well, yeah. That was what people were saying. It's unreasonable to ban all those Pokemon. Just bad DCE and make a DCE Prism Star.

Or change the expanded format, or remove the competitive play from expanded. If expanded were XY-now like I suggested, Propogate wouldn't be a problem.

Red_Herring.jpeg

It's not a red herring fallacy, it's a comparison to point out how little thought there is to your argument. The ironic part is that instead of taking on this comparison, you label it as a red herring which is, in and of itself, a red herring.

Except those attacks have been nukes.

That's not the fault of DCE.

I can't suggest anything since I dont make the cards. We'd have a Pidgey-GX if I did but try expanding your searches to [X][C][C] attacks. Attacks like this hardly existed.

So you can't suggest new cards because you don't make cards, but you can suggest a ban even though you don't make the format?

I did actually factor in [X][C][C]. I counted any attack that included [C][C], regardless of the other energy in the attack cost

I'd be fine with that. Aqua Patch is also harder to recycle than DCE. Generally anything that can lock a player in one turn should be avoided.

I agree, turn one locks should be avoided for sure. DCE isn't the reason those turn one locks exist though.

True but the damage output is too high for such a common cost.

Again, that's at fault of the Expanded format itself. Specifically Zoroark and Sky Field.

That is the key word there another. In a game where you can run four copies of a card, chances are they have other copies in hand and if they dont, the sheer amount of draw in standard decks means they can do it again the next turn.

You can run multiple copies of your counter as well. Zoro gives two prizes, you can use a fighting Pokemon that gives 1 prize and get a lead, for example.

Standard has its issues.

Agreed.

How much expanded do you play?

Not much, as I've said it's quite a cancerous format. Did I mess up with something? You can point it out.

Is there another way to play Pokemon I'm not aware about? I though I can do whatever I want during my turn before passing while my opponent watches.

You can do whatever you want, yeah. But when you play nothing and pass, don't ask for card bans when you lose.

 

[alyL]

What about specific card nerfs? Kinda like how Pokemon Catcher got reprinted with a coin flip conditional?
I guess it would be kinda hard to do it without granting them the ability to last through rotation, but it could be doable since alternate art is a thing now.
I could totally see DCE work with some sort of conditional, like maybe it needs another energy attachment other than it to work idk or it's only for colorless pokes.
For expanded cards they could reprint them with new conditionals as alternate arts through those Trainer Versus sets idk.

If you're going to do an errata, just do it on Zoro himself. Change attack cost to [D][C] so we can now hear people complain about dark patch Zoro decks.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

My point is that Shaymin is the problem with what you said, not Ultra Ball.

Shaymin-EX is a symptom. Ultra Ball allows you to do the combo. Ultra Ball can find Hoopa-EX, Shaymin-EX (and the new version). Its can find Zoroark and Octillery. In Yu-Gi-Oh, they banned cards that could open up huge combos. This isn't Yu-Gi-Oh but the same stands. A single card that can +12 a player in a turn is a unhealthy combo considering nothing can cross the turn barrier. How can't you see this?

As far as I recall, you have not given a single realistic scenario where DCE is *actually* broken and wins the game. You just continue to use the phrase "drop a dce and win" as if that actually happens.

You can watch any game and see it. If Pokemon didn't have such huge draw power, DCE wouldn't be a problem. Mega Ray can draw the entire deck during the turn and end with a 240+ damage attack that is made possible with DCE plus Mega Turbo. I wouldn't use the term broken because DCE isn't broken. It simply allows for too many options in attacks with the card pool in Expanded.

What cards deny a win condition like Lysandre's Trump Card did?

Hammers, Max Potion, Gardevoir-GX, any deck that can wall an entire deck. What scale are we talking here?

I get your point, but it doesn't apply here because Zoroark is not a reason to ban DCE.

Zoroark isn't the only reason. There is Toad, X-Ball attacks, Mega Ray. The list goes on.

It's not a red herring fallacy, it's a comparison to point out how little thought there is to your argument. The ironic part is that instead of taking on this comparison, you label it as a red herring which is, in and of itself, a red herring.

You diverted the argument to Rainbow Energy, a card that has no balance issues. No one is complaining about this card. If a Rainbow Energy existed like DCE, then the argument would be the same.

That's not the fault of DCE.

No, its the problem with how TPC designs cards. Wally wasn't broken in my deck, but here we are.

So you can't suggest new cards because you don't make cards, but you can suggest a ban even though you don't make the format?

Its a discussion board, we talk about random things. I can, however criticize the format because I love the game and want to see it better. As a game designer, I care about balance.

Again, that's at fault of the Expanded format itself. Specifically Zoroark and Sky Field.

And if Expanded wants to exist, then they need to take care to prevent imbalance.

You can run multiple copies of your counter as well. Zoro gives two prizes, you can use a fighting Pokemon that gives 1 prize and get a lead, for example.

True. I'll be sure to tell everyone to run four Sudo in their decks.

Not much, as I've said it's quite a cancerous format. Did I mess up with something? You can point it out.

The point calls to the skill. I've played a lot of Expanded. I hate the format and if the game wasn't a control match (with Toad and DCE), it was a damage fest involving DCE.

You can do whatever you want, yeah. But when you play nothing and pass, don't ask for card bans when you lose.

It happens, sure.

 

[The Almighty Bidoof]

Shaymin-EX is a symptom. Ultra Ball allows you to do the combo. Ultra Ball can find Hoopa-EX, Shaymin-EX (and the new version). Its can find Zoroark and Octillery. In Yu-Gi-Oh, they banned cards that could open up huge combos. This isn't Yu-Gi-Oh but the same stands. A single card that can +12 a player in a turn is a unhealthy combo considering nothing can cross the turn barrier. How can't you see this?



You can watch any game and see it. If Pokemon didn't have such huge draw power, DCE wouldn't be a problem. Mega Ray can draw the entire deck during the turn and end with a 240+ damage attack that is made possible with DCE plus Mega Turbo. I wouldn't use the term broken because DCE isn't broken. It simply allows for too many options in attacks with the card pool in Expanded.



Hammers, Max Potion, Gardevoir-GX, any deck that can wall an entire deck. What scale are we talking here?



Zoroark isn't the only reason. There is Toad, X-Ball attacks, Mega Ray. The list goes on.



You diverted the argument to Rainbow Energy, a card that has no balance issues. No one is complaining about this card. If a Rainbow Energy existed like DCE, then the argument would be the same.



No, its the problem with how TPC designs cards. Wally wasn't broken in my deck, but here we are.



Its a discussion board, we talk about random things. I can, however criticize the format because I love the game and want to see it better. As a game designer, I care about balance.



And if Expanded wants to exist, then they need to take care to prevent imbalance.



True. I'll be sure to tell everyone to run four Sudo in their decks.



The point calls to the skill. I've played a lot of Expanded. I hate the format and if the game wasn't a control match (with Toad and DCE), it was a damage fest involving DCE.



It happens, sure.

But how is Zoroark unfairly powerful? You have easy ways to prize trade and disrupt them. I see your argument for Toad, but that's an issue with Toad. As mentioned earlier Aqua Patch would be used for the same T1 lock effect. A card doing well doesn't equal unbalance. Heck, Japan showed Zoro only getting 2 top 8 finishes. You're not showing why DCE is necessarily a bad thing. Especially when the current card design is heavily based off this card. Just run 4 Faba or a single copy of Xurkitree-GX if you're scared of DCE.

 

[JumpluffTCG]

But how is Zoroark unfairly powerful? You have easy ways to prize trade and disrupt them. I see your argument for Toad, but that's an issue with Toad. As mentioned earlier Aqua Patch would be used for the same T1 lock effect. A card doing well doesn't equal unbalance. Heck, Japan showed Zoro only getting 2 top 8 finishes. You're not showing why DCE is necessarily a bad thing. Especially when the current card design is heavily based off this card. Just run 4 Faba or a single copy of Xurkitree-GX if you're scared of DCE.

To this and anybody else who mentions Japan. Japan still has Hex Maniac, and I feel like that plays a huge role in making Zoroark less powerful vs Ray. Both decks abuse and are hurt by Hex sure, but Zoroark usually needs to Brigette turn 1 and can't afford to Hex, meanwhile Ray can set up AND Hex turn 1, making Ray favored in that matchup.

Also I'm curious if you've ever been able to fit 4 Fabas and a Xurkitree in a deck. Maybe I'm bad at making decks, but I've never been able to just afford to give up 5 deck slots over other tech and consistency options.

Just my 2 cents worth, hoping to bring some new ideas but will reiterate some to put context in.What I'm getting at is that banning enabling cards reduces the playability of other decks in the format, and any one card wouldn't be sufficient. Zoroark-GX has been very dominant for a long time in Expanded and I think has shown in enough circumstances that it's worthy of a ban. It's hard to say whether Pokemon will do that, as Zoroark-GX doesn't directly keep your opponent from playing the game, but I feel it's probably a better reason than what they verbalized for Puzzle of Time.

This is actually a really concise description of how I feel about this situation. TPCi should honestly just pull the trigger and ban Zoroark in Expanded (it can stay in Standard). Zoroark as a card basically enables any stupid/unfair combination of cards that were previously not practical, unreliable, and inconsistent. With a growing card pool with each coming set, this "Zoroark problem" is likely to just get worse over time and I think it's really telling when Zoroark already has the means to reliably best BuzzRoc decks with Sudowoodo packed in them.

 

[Merovingian]

Just run 4 Faba if you're scared of DCE.

Word of advice. The next time you say something that’s absolutely true AND a solution to the problem like this. You have to say it loud enough for the cheap seats to hear it.