(1) Rules Changes Coming with X/Y TCG [9/27]

Not being able to attack on turn-1 helps a bit but not by a large margin. If the X and Y meta-game puts more emphasis on evolution type decks, then yes this change is a huge improvement. However, if our game is still dominated by Basic and basic EX Pokemon, it is setting up Energy and leading into a powerful attack that will make the difference (from the basic Pokemon).

It is very difficult for the Pokemon TCG to correct its fundamental flaw: who often goes first, wins. In order to rectify this ongoing problem, I think Pokemon TCG will need an entire new game mechanic(s). I think the card Power Spray brought an interesting new idea to the game: that a concealed card could stop something, could this same idea be brought to denying an attack, or maybe items/supporters?

Then I propose: if Crushing Hammer will be reprinted?

But nevertheless, Pokemon Catcher was needed for our current Meta-game. X and Y will be different (or the same, depending on how you look at how Pokemon TCG's progress resembles past meta-games lol).
 
Darkshy said:
DNA said:
If you think Catcher being flip-based is healthy, I have a bridge to sell you.

Just to counter point; Do you think it's healthy that every deck essentially HAS to run catcher?

Every deck basically HAS to run Professor Juniper. That doesn't mean they need to nerf it.

As for my opinion on the changes:

I'm not a huge fan of these rule changes.

The first turn thing is really not an issue for me. I don't see a huge problem with it (or any problem)

The catcher ruling however, I highly dislike. It isn't a broken card, but a strategic one, and is a great addition to the game. The last thing they needed to do is make the game even more luck based than it already is.

And I really don't care about the whole Juniper/Sycamore thing.
 
I actually like the first rule, since it mean there are some kind of advantage to both go first and last. Maybe some decks will even prefer to go last?

The Pokémon catcher rule I am not too happy about thought, at least not atm when I'm not sure what XY have in store for us. But right now it does seem like it will make certain decks a bit broken.

As for the Professor Juniper/Sycamore I really don't care, and I don't understand why people complain so much :S
 
Question: since first turn advantage is such a problem, has the pokemon TCG ever given the player who goes second an extra draw, or denied one of the first player? Because that's simple and works pretty well for MTG. Is card advantage not as big a deal in pokemon?
 
ECHOxLegend said:
First turn rule is good, great, amazing, remarkable

Why?

The capacity to attack first turn is not a problem... is it the overpowered cards that they keep printing. If this was supposed to be a quick fix for the company's own bad card design and release decisions, it is at least half a format late. If it is in anticipation of XY cards having balanced attacks for first turn and we are getting an emergency rotation once we have the first four XY sets, then I'll retroactively consider it a "good thing". Anything else is treating symptoms and not the disease.

The aggressive decks we have don't auto-lose going second now. Most will adjust. We'll see a few less donks, but this particular rules change won't fix the underlying issue.

ECHOxLegend said:
I couldn't actually use catchers until Plasma Blast and they prevented fun experimental decks from happening so welcome to my world, cry some moar. its still a coin flip, catcher are cheap as hell now, and you don't know any of the XY set cards except Sycamore and Sylveon and the 3 starter cards. The Meta will change whether you like it or not.

I think I've had to put up with a dozen similar statements, and none of them ever give an honest, accurate supporting argument (if any such thing is even attempted.

You know what "ruined" your "fun" decks? Overpowered, overly fast attacks and Energy acceleration. Probably should include Weakness rules that proved to be failures when they were the standard for the first third of the game's life, failure to properly balance the different "Stages" of Pokémon as well as "special" mechanics (Pokémon-EX, Restored Pokémon), and large quantities of filler.

Pokémon Catcher doesn't KO Pokémon. It forces a Benched Pokémon of the user's choice to the Active slot. This is what prevents a lot of Bench sitters from being quite so overpowered. The overpowered, overly fast attackers of this format were able to capitalize upon this, but yank out Pokémon Catcher and you can expect those fun decks to fail just as hard. Get rid of those overpowered, overly fast Pokémon and combos, and you'll realize that Pokémon Catcher is still good, but isn't "broken".

As for the changing metagame, we know it is changing... to something we've experienced before. It wasn't fun then, either.

ECHOxLegend said:
Sycamore Juniper are no bid deal at all, the point of the 4 card rule is that you can't stock up on the same good effect, if they have the same effect they cant just let you have 8, all this does it let you pick whether you like juniper or sycamore, yay for art variety!

A Trainer we knew was coming (because the region's Professor always gets a card) is going to be a reprint. That should annoy you; that slot could have gone to something actually new. That card name could have given us a new card instead of recycling an old one that hasn't even rotated out. I would even have settled for just calling the card "Professor" and then issuing an errata for Professor Juniper (thus making it clear that next gen, we'll see the same trick - new art, new professor, same effect).

So we've got another element to trip players up, a complication that was intentionally manufactures by the powers-that-be. Honestly, I am not even sure how big a problem having the two cards run in the same deck would be. Better odds of having access to Professor Juniper? In light of the other changes, how many players can really afford to rip through their deck more than four times? If they would give us a solid milling Supporter, Professor Juniper as is might not be a safe, and few if any decks would want to risk running both.

TL;DR:
Your analysis seems incomplete.
 
Otaku, I agree with most of the things you said.
I hate the overpowered cards we got and yes, catcher was the card to
blance things up. However, we need to understand that this is a whole new format. Mega Pokemon will probably be the next OP and in order to nalance them you will need something else then catcher.
Who knows.
 
Darkshy said:
DNA said:
If you think Catcher being flip-based is healthy, I have a bridge to sell you.

Just to counter point; Do you think it's healthy that every deck essentially HAS to run catcher?
Not denying that, but which is truly worse?
 
Darkshy said:
Just to counter point; Do you think it's healthy that every deck essentially HAS to run catcher?
To counter your counter, do you think this will stop people from playing 4 catcher? Or catcher effects (genesect and ninetales just got a LOT better) Because it won't. This is unbelievably bad. BTW, on that note, isn't this rule change completely skewed towards genesect virizion? Since it's the only teir 1 deck that already has a replacement for catcher. Maybe plasma could run a genesect or two just for the effect


Elbow said:
As first I thought this meant that I can't do damage, so I can still use sableye's attack and Thundurus EX's attacks' effect. But then I read it again and saw that I can't even attack...this gives me some hope that my Zeb-Garb deck won't be easily donked.
So saying the opponent goes 2nd, they could still set up a t1 Darkrai, a Lugia, and maybe a few other EX's without any complications from the opponent except for hypnotoxic laser.
I do see LaserBank having a lot more play now and maybe we can see escape rope in more decks now????

Oh lord. I hadn't even considered decks like this while being soul crushed by making my catchers unreliable... Garbodor and decks that lock you out of items will probably be the most played and most annoying... Well I wasnt going to play competitively after the stupid CP change, now? I'm already readying my post for Heyfonte.
 
khit said:
To counter your counter, do you think this will stop people from playing 4 catcher? Because it won't. This is unbelievably bad.
Actually it kind of will...
 
Lvl 100 Bidoof said:
I hope TPCI rethinks the catcher thing. It didn't need a nerf.
Your totally right... It makes the format very luck based at this point in time. Hopefully though some cards come out that will change this.
 
Catcherless format > Catcher format > Reversal format

Making Catcher flip-based makes it more of a luck-based game. It is not going to stop most people playing Catcher, but it's rather going to make it worse - he who is luckier than his opponent wins. It's not enough just Skyla-ing for the end-game Catcher, you had better pray that you don't get tails on it.

HS-BW format, especially at Worlds, was plagued with Pokemon Reversal. And the ones who got heads consistently enough (the lucky people) were the winners.
This is probably one of the worst things that could happen to the format right now. Even outright banning Catcher is better than this.
 
DNA said:
Catcherless format > Catcher format > Reversal format

Making Catcher flip-based makes it more of a luck-based game. It is not going to stop most people playing Catcher, but it's rather going to make it worse - he who is luckier than his opponent wins. It's not enough just Skyla-ing for the end-game Catcher, you had better pray that you don't get tails on it.

HS-BW format, especially at Worlds, was plagued with Pokemon Reversal. And the ones who got heads consistently enough (the lucky people) were the winners.
This is probably one of the worst things that could happen to the format right now. Even outright banning Catcher is better than this.

I agree 100% with this. I think that if they think it's too overpowered, they should ban it instead of making it luck based. It would be a shame if someone won worlds over a coin flip.
 
Lvl 100 Bidoof said:
DNA said:
Catcherless format > Catcher format > Reversal format

Making Catcher flip-based makes it more of a luck-based game. It is not going to stop most people playing Catcher, but it's rather going to make it worse - he who is luckier than his opponent wins. It's not enough just Skyla-ing for the end-game Catcher, you had better pray that you don't get tails on it.

HS-BW format, especially at Worlds, was plagued with Pokemon Reversal. And the ones who got heads consistently enough (the lucky people) were the winners.
This is probably one of the worst things that could happen to the format right now. Even outright banning Catcher is better than this.

I agree 100% with this. I think that if they think it's too overpowered, they should ban it instead of making it luck based. It would be a shame if someone won worlds over a coin flip.

as compared to them winning worlds by just playing the card? wouldn't that make the win more epic?
 
camoclone said:
khit said:
To counter your counter, do you think this will stop people from playing 4 catcher? Because it won't. This is unbelievably bad.
Actually it kind of will...

people will be playing other catcher effects. And did people play pokemon reversal? Just because Junk arm is now a 1 of won't stop people from playing what is now in this metagame (with garbodor, sigilyph, silver mirror, blastoise and MANY others) REQUIRED to have a good deck. Anyone who stops playing catcher will suffer.
And to the above, sure, if he wins it's more intense, but what if he flips tails and loses worlds because of this errata? Not good for the game in any way IMO, I also agree banning catcher would've been better (But still a terrible move for the benchsitters mentioned earlier)
 
And did people play pokemon reversal?
Yes they did. Many decks had between 2 and 3. It was not a staple in every deck, but it was very commonly used.

as compared to them winning worlds by just playing the card? wouldn't that make the win more epic?
Yes, having them just play the card would make the win more epic. It always is.

but what if he flips tails and loses worlds because of this errata?
I can imagine someone losing a big name tournament just because of a coin flip would make that person extremely bitter.
 
I think all judgements should be reserved until we know what the new meta looks like, they could be sitting back and laughing because we have no idea what the meta could possibly be and this could not be a big deal. Were the formats between gust of wind and catcher all that bad because I didnt really play back then?
 
I'd rather tech in Genesect EX & Plasma Energy than play Reversal-Catcher.

What keeps SSU & Crushing Hammer from being heavenly good staples? The flip. That's why most decks don't play them. Without the flip they would be as incredible cards as Catcher. They just nerfed Catcher down to the same point now. You have to decide now if the deck space is worth the risk and not just throw 4 Catcher in every single deck. Remember that you opponent won't have 4 Catchers either. Btw. if Ace Specs are still a thing in XY, I can totally see the normal Catcher as an Ace Spec.
 
And did people play pokemon reversal?
The bad players did. Their decks even ran 4. It was very commonly used - by bad players who cared more about gimmicks rather than consistency.

The ability to spam junk arm, as well a format that didn't cause such tight decklists as the one now, are what tilted the scale in reversal's favor to be included in good players decks.


edited for truth

No junk arm spam synergy + tighter decklists (think tool scrappers and tools) = pretty much no good player spamming the new (nerfed) catcher.

Not entirely sure why they didn't just ban catcher - I guess they just wanted players to not feel completely stupid in hoarding them/paying out the wazoo for the gold ones.
 
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