Discussion (2019-On) What Supporters will we Use?

[Duo]

I'm still not convinced by Judge. Well, not as a supporter that every deck should have 1-2 copies of, anyway. It's a card that requires a specific timing and a card that requires, in my opinion, a specific deck to not risk getting yourself stuck in a corner at the same time your opponent does. That just makes for slow games. Zoroark GX lists are currently the only lists I would consider Judge in (and of course Shiftry GX for the hand size matching), and part of the micro-management game is making sure that you always have more hand advantage than your opponent through Judge & Trade.

While Judge doesn't have a play requirement like Hala, in my opinion timing is as much of a condition as is having used your GX attack or depending on the size of your opponent's hand or waiting for a time when you take a KO. Generally speaking, if I'm gunning for a KO I'm playing a Guzma for target selection, not a Judge, so there's some supporter conflict overlap there as well.

I'm also not super sold on Copycat right now either just because all of the supporters we have outside of T1 Lillie are capping our hands at 5 or 6 cards after playing them, and assuming players are playing down a part of their hand after using draw supporters (I mean, we usually play draw supporters to find cards we can play right?), the average hand size at the end of turn is going to be lower than a format with Sycamore who starts at a baseline of 7 hand size, not 5 or 6. I have seen the argument before that it's a good card to use after your opponent takes a KO and inflates their hand size because of it, but if they land their KO with 2-3 cards in hand and go up to 4-5 then that's not exactly a situation worth Copycatting in my opinion.

At this point, I think Cynthia is the only draw supporter that sits at the top due to being universally useable and resulting in a good hand size. Everything else comes down to what your deck does and finding the supporters that best synchronize with your deck. I dislike the mindset of thinking that cards should be "staples" in every deck to begin with, especially when they have play conditions like Judge & Copycat. Really feel like that mindset just bottlenecks creativity. Playtest, playtest, playtest.

 

[Mysticvulpix]

I'm still not convinced by Judge. Well, not as a supporter that every deck should have 1-2 copies of, anyway. It's a card that requires a specific timing and a card that requires, in my opinion, a specific deck to not risk getting yourself stuck in a corner at the same time your opponent does. That just makes for slow games. Zoroark GX lists are basically the only list I would consider Judge in, and part of the micro-management game is making sure that you always have more hand advantage than your opponent through Judge & Trade.

While Judge doesn't have a play requirement like Hala, in my opinion timing is as much of a condition as is having used your GX attack or depending on the size of your opponent's hand or waiting for a time when you take a KO. Generally speaking, if I'm gunning for a KO I'm playing a Guzma for target selection, not a Judge, so there's some supporter conflict overlap there as well.

I'm also not super sold on Copycat right now either just because all of the supporters we have outside of T1 Lillie are capping our hands at 5 or 6 cards after playing them, and assuming players are playing down a part of their hand after using draw supporters (I mean, we usually play draw supporters to find cards we can play right?), the average hand size at the end of turn is going to be lower than a format with Sycamore who starts at a baseline of 7 hand size, not 5 or 6. I have seen the argument before that it's a good card to use after your opponent takes a KO and inflates their hand size because of it, but if they land their KO with 2-3 cards in hand and go up to 4-5 then that's not exactly a situation worth Copycatting in my opinion.

At this point, I think Cynthia is the only draw supporter that sits at the top due to being universally useable and resulting in a good hand size. Everything else comes down to what your deck does and finding the supporters that best synchronize with your deck. I dislike the mindset of thinking that cards should be "staples" in every deck to begin with, especially when they have play conditions like Judge & Copycat. Really feel like that mindset just bottlenecks creativity. Playtest, playtest, playtest.

Actually, what about shiftree gx? We saw it do well in Japan, and it could definetely use judge and copycat to utilize its attack to the fullest.

 

[Duo]

Actually, what about shiftree gx? We saw it do well in Japan, and it could definetely use judge and copycat to utilize its attack to the fullest.

I literally just editted my post because I forgot about Shiftry GX, lol.

Yeah, Shiftry GX would be a deck I'd definitely run them in for obvious reasons.

 

[Mysticvulpix]

I literally just editted my post because I forgot about Shiftry GX, lol.

Yeah, Shiftry GX would be a deck I'd definitely run them in for obvious reasons.

The question is, will it be strong enough post rotation? Will it be strong once released?

 

[Duo]

The question is, will it be strong enough post rotation? Will it be strong once released?

Hopefully without taking this too far off tangent, personally I don't have a very strong opinion of Shiftry GX for a few reasons.

1. As a stage 2 deck, it suffers from the general speed & consistency problems that all stage 2 decks suffer from. This will be slightly alleviated when Alolan Ninetales GX (fairy) comes out, but until then I don't think Stage 2 decks of any sort are going to take center stage in the meta.

2. Compared to a 1 prize attacker like Garchomp who can swing for 200 damage after playing a Cynthia, Shiftry GX in comparison feels a bit meager hitting only 180 after playing Judge/Copycat. While you can run more copies of Judge/Copycat than Cynthia, you could also just run Pal Pad to restock, and running Garchomp/Lucario together as the intended set means you can just search out Cynthia from your deck every time you need it without needing Lele. Garchomp can also be played with the fighting type to attack Zoroark GX for weakness, in which case you don't even need Cynthia to OHKO a GX Pokemon with a 1 prize attacker. Simultaneously, Garchomp can benefit from Lance Prism Star running the Dragon type to skip the evolution process and immediately make Lucario's ability live if your opponent takes an early KO during your set up phase. Gible and Gabite also have the Ascencion attack as a built in Diancie which also helps the deck's consistency as a Stage 2. On top of this, you could play Commandment Shrine in Garchomp/Lucario since you won't be running GXs outside of maybe Lele anyway, and that would give you 10 damage counters after the passing of your turn to "OHKO" a Shiftry GX and simply get other GX Pokemon in range. Diancie Prism Star can also make hitting 250 on things like Solgaleo GX and Metagross GX within reach. You can also run Lucario GX as a "tech" card, who does 30 damage for each damage counter on it for its GX attack. That with Commandment Shrine is perhaps a decent strategy as well. Honestly, I think Garchomp/Lucario is a force to be reckoned with, even if it's just a rogue deck, much more so than Shiftry GX even with support like Net Ball.

As for why I'm comparing Shiftry GX to Garchomp...well that's because both of them are attackers who rely on playing draw supporters, and if I were to pick which one I'd play, it would without a doubt be Garchomp. Garchomp/Lucario is a stronger pairing than Shiftry GX/Zoroark GX in my eyes, and I wouldn't play any other partner than Zoroark GX with Shiftry GX if I plan on nuking my hand with Judge to attack.

3. Cynthia is inherently a much safer supporter than Judge or Copycat. You might Judge yourself into a dead hand, or Copycat yourself into a tiny hand (especially if your opponent sees you playing Shiftry GX and purposefully plays conservative hands) and lose momentum just to take a KO. Cynthia is a supporter that you were probably going to play anyway and she does not risk damaging your overall consistency for the sake of dealing bonus damage.

I guess you could say as a tl;dr, Garchomp is better than Shiftry GX simply because Cynthia is a more reliable supporter than either Judge or Copycat.

 

[poke_baepe]

Why has no-one mentioned ilima? She is great for disruption and card draw. Yes she's not as good as cynthia or N, but can potentially be better than both. She is also amazing in a shiftry deck, and vs zoroark as they almost always have more than 6 cards

 

[Duo]

Why has no-one mentioned ilima? She is great for disruption and card draw. Yes she's not as good as cynthia or N, but can potentially be better than both. She is also amazing in a shiftry deck, and vs zoroark as they almost always have more than 6 cards

Probably just because most people don't like coin flip cards like Super Scoop Up and Timer Ball.

In a card pool where we aren't obligated to play those kinds of cards, people tend to avoid them.

By all means give it a shot if you're interested, and I'm not being sarcastic. Test it out and see how you like it.

 

[PokeMedic]

I do like Tate and Liza. Maybe I can fit it in as a '5th' Cynthia or a half-Guzma.

 

[poke_baepe]

Probably just because most people don't like coin flip cards like Super Scoop Up and Timer Ball.

In a card pool where we aren't obligated to play those kinds of cards, people tend to avoid them.

By all means give it a shot if you're interested, and I'm not being sarcastic. Test it out and see how you like it.

i love it and i play it often along side N due to n being dead in your hand when you're ahead. Give it a shot!!

 

[CrownAxe]

Why has no-one mentioned ilima? She is great for disruption and card draw. Yes she's not as good as cynthia or N, but can potentially be better than both. She is also amazing in a shiftry deck, and vs zoroark as they almost always have more than 6 cards

Because half the time you put yourself at 3 cards which is bad.

Also Ilima is a guy fyi

 

[fleshrum]

what are your collective thoughts on Mallow as a 0-4 of in zoroark decks ?

 

[Duo]

what are your collective thoughts on Mallow as a 0-4 of in zoroark decks ?

I used to run Mallow as a 2 of in most Zoroark GX decks and even sometimes in Octillery decks, but Mallow is probably falling off a bit because of Magcargo and Magcargo GX. Zoroark GX/Magcargo GX/Magcargo is one of the most anticipated Zoroark GX partners coming up, and when you already have a Pokemon with the ability to stack your deck, you would rather play a hard draw supporter and then Trade after stacking your deck with Magcargo.

That being said, I think it's still a fine consideration for Zoroark GX decks not playing Magcargo as their partner, like Zoroark GX/Banette GX which is seeing a bit of play in Japan. Since draw support has overall weakened a bit for post rotation, searching for 2 cards can sometimes be a better trade than playing Cynthia and Trading and hoping to draw the cards you need. Really just depends on how thick your deck is and the ratio of finding what you need.

 

[MiniMads]

Going a little further forward we have Sightseer in November which I can see being used in certain archetypes, like Mally and Eelektrik in expanded or even in Zoro Banette, but I don't see it being in all decks, it's just not as good as Sycamore.

 

[fleshrum]

I used to run Mallow as a 2 of in most Zoroark GX decks and even sometimes in Octillery decks, but Mallow is probably falling off a bit because of Magcargo and Magcargo GX. Zoroark GX/Magcargo GX/Magcargo is one of the most anticipated Zoroark GX partners coming up, and when you already have a Pokemon with the ability to stack your deck, you would rather play a hard draw supporter and then Trade after stacking your deck with Magcargo.

That being said, I think it's still a fine consideration for Zoroark GX decks not playing Magcargo as their partner, like Zoroark GX/Banette GX which is seeing a bit of play in Japan. Since draw support has overall weakened a bit for post rotation, searching for 2 cards can sometimes be a better trade than playing Cynthia and Trading and hoping to draw the cards you need. Really just depends on how thick your deck is and the ratio of finding what you need.

Interesting. And the concensus is that an easily ko'd 90HP stage 1 is "worth" a draw supporter? You may be able to use a different supporter like guzma on your turn; that is better, no question. But the draw power of straight tutoring for two cards is not outweighed by having a few more cards in your hand from Cynthia, IMO.

Or is it? I'm just spitballing. What would they be paired with for damage output?

Going a little further forward we have Sightseer in November which I can see being used in certain archetypes, like Mally and Eelektrik in expanded or even in Zoro Banette, but I don't see it being in all decks, it's just not as good as Sycamore.

I actually really like that there is no definitive list of supporters from my #1 source for info on the TCG. That alone is a sign that this format is going to be insanely interesting.

 

[Duo]

Interesting. And the concensus is that an easily ko'd 90HP stage 1 is "worth" a draw supporter? You may be able to use a different supporter like guzma on your turn; that is better, no question. But the draw power of straight tutoring for two cards is not outweighed by having a few more cards in your hand from Cynthia, IMO.

Or is it? I'm just spitballing. What would they be paired with for damage output?



I actually really like that there is no definitive list of supporters from my #1 source for info on the TCG. That alone is a sign that this format is going to be insanely interesting.

A 90 HP support Pokemon like Magcargo is usually fine. Generally speaking, due the pressure you would be applying with Zoroark GX or Magcargo GX, your opponent will not have time to blow a Guzma on a 1 prize KO while Magcargo GX is just ready with 4 energy on it to revenge KO next turn, kind of deal. If you set up incredibly slow then odds are you are going to see yourself in a bit of a pickle with that strategy, but the same could be said with Mallow - if you get that awkward game where you can't set up Zoroark GX in time, then Mallow is kind of just staring at you in your hand.

There is definitely a time and a place where KOing the Magcargo is a good idea, and it's also the reason why the first list I created for Zoroark GX/Magcargo GX simply ran 4 Mallows and no non-GX Magcargos. The logic was to stack the deck with 2 energy with Mallow and have 2 Magcargo GX in play getting you 2 energy per turn instead of only 1 when you play down Magcargo GX + Magcargo. The problem with that approach is that you are forced into your supporter per turn on Mallow just about every turn you want a KO, and that leads to a lot of inflexibility with the approach, despite the speed it promises.

Personally, I do think Pokemon like Magcargo are going to hold the deck back. It's the same reason why I don't think Malamar decks are going to carry too much momentum a few months after rotation, because when you can simply just KO Inkays and Malamars all day, UNGX/Necrozma GX just never get the energy they need to attack. The same could be said of Magcargo GX. Once you KO the regular Magcargo, it's basically never getting any energy unless you run back up strategies like Kiawe and Turtonator GX's GX attack, or Mallow.

When it comes to situations like these, honestly I think the solution is play both. Play the Magcargo and the Mallow, that way you can access both strategies depending on how your board is setting up. Assuming the deck has room to do that, of course. I haven't touched the list in a while to be sure that it runs well when you build it like that.

 

[Mysticvulpix]

A 90 HP support Pokemon like Magcargo is usually fine. Generally speaking, due the pressure you would be applying with Zoroark GX or Magcargo GX, your opponent will not have time to blow a Guzma on a 1 prize KO while Magcargo GX is just ready with 4 energy on it to revenge KO next turn, kind of deal. If you set up incredibly slow then odds are you are going to see yourself in a bit of a pickle with that strategy, but the same could be said with Mallow - if you get that awkward game where you can't set up Zoroark GX in time, then Mallow is kind of just staring at you in your hand.

There is definitely a time and a place where KOing the Magcargo is a good idea, and it's also the reason why the first list I created for Zoroark GX/Magcargo GX simply ran 4 Mallows and no non-GX Magcargos. The logic was to stack the deck with 2 energy with Mallow and have 2 Magcargo GX in play getting you 2 energy per turn instead of only 1 when you play down Magcargo GX + Magcargo. The problem with that approach is that you are forced into your supporter per turn on Mallow just about every turn you want a KO, and that leads to a lot of inflexibility with the approach, despite the speed it promises.

Personally, I do think Pokemon like Magcargo are going to hold the deck back. It's the same reason why I don't think Malamar decks are going to carry too much momentum a few months after rotation, because when you can simply just KO Inkays and Malamars all day, UNGX/Necrozma GX just never get the energy they need to attack. The same could be said of Magcargo GX. Once you KO the regular Magcargo, it's basically never getting any energy unless you run back up strategies like Kiawe and Turtonator GX's GX attack, or Mallow.

When it comes to situations like these, honestly I think the solution is play both. Play the Magcargo and the Mallow, that way you can access both strategies depending on how your board is setting up. Assuming the deck has room to do that, of course. I haven't touched the list in a while to be sure that it runs well when you build it like that.

So in these lists, would the zoroark be your primary attacker?

 

[Duo]

So in these lists, would the zoroark be your primary attacker?

Magcargo GX, mostly. Japanese lists run a Kiawe to get it going right away.

Magcargo GX's main attack is pretty powerful. 50+ 50 more for every energy you discard. 3 energy discard = 200 damage without a choice band.

It's a bit clunky for my tastes but it's a good Fire Pokemon. I think I would personally rather play Zoroark/Salazzle and use Salazzle's GX attack to discard energy (very good vs Rayquaza GX, Gardevoir GX, and after Solgaleo GX uses Sol Burst GX) and go for the disruption game and Diabolical Claws hitting 200/250 late game...but the deck has no energy acceleration which is kind of booty.

 

[poke_baepe]

Because half the time you put yourself at 3 cards which is bad.

Also Ilima is a guy fyi

So? N can put you at 2 cards or even 1 but it's still one of the most widely used cards.

 

[CrownAxe]

So? N can put you at 2 cards or even 1 but it's still one of the most widely used cards.

The difference is with N you know when it would put you to 1 or 2 cards in so you can choose not to play it.

That’s the difference. You know exactly what N will do to both players hands and can use that information to decide wether or not you should play N. You can not do that with Ilima

 

[Mysticvulpix]

Magcargo GX, mostly. Japanese lists run a Kiawe to get it going right away.

Magcargo GX's main attack is pretty powerful. 50+ 50 more for every energy you discard. 3 energy discard = 200 damage without a choice band.

It's a bit clunky for my tastes but it's a good Fire Pokemon. I think I would personally rather play Zoroark/Salazzle and use Salazzle's GX attack to discard energy (very good vs Rayquaza GX, Gardevoir GX, and after Solgaleo GX uses Sol Burst GX) and go for the disruption game and Diabolical Claws hitting 200/250 late game...but the deck has no energy acceleration which is kind of booty.

Is their a way to get the energy back?