#4: Is intelligent design a viable argument for the existence of God?

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Is your keyboard useless? It's the product of accumulated scientific knowledge, from the plastic keys to the wiring to the LEDs for caps lock, etc. Yet what it is based on is not 100% sure fact, though pretty darn close. Close enough to be taught in textbooks. Close enough for business investment.

"The Earth is flat" was an assumption that had no supporting evidence. This assumption was not under constant re-evaluation. It was replaced after it was proven wrong (not immediately; religion stood in the way).


A quick add-on about modern religions:
One branch of Buddhism does not contain any gods.
Another branch has infinitely many gods. :p
 
Heavenly Spoon :F said:
afstandopleren, I added a 2nd link, which was also linked to in the 1st link, which shows the picture the newspaper one was based on. Also, just read the text. How can you not be sceptical about this? The newspapers would have been FULL, and I mean FULL of this. People love things like this. No way would this only appear in a small article in an Indian newspaper.

Predictions about today's climate? Gimme.
As I said before, it's all very vague and poetic, give me the passage you're referring to and I can probably interpret it in at least 20 different ways. Also, please give the context, because ripping stuff out of context is just silly.

If homosexuality is not natural, how come it is observed in nature very frequently? You're giving evidence of this based on your book. You can't give evidence for your book out of your book...


Well I have actually looked around but I can't find anything but you try writing in something in google and tell me your own interpretation.

I did find something about the Sun and the Earth

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=da9_1181815456


Hopefully that clears things up.

I don't think of it like that. Animals have been given eternal freedom. God doesn't care what they do. They are just animals. Not to say they are not important but in the end of the day God will judge us not them

Think of it this way. Homosexuality stops life from progressing, without natural sex, children can't be born and eventually nations will die out. Not only will this destroy the purpose of life but it also contradicts nature. We should survive.

I am not saying we will become all homosexuals just that is the scenario around this subject.
 
@ Spoon: I don't want to go all Fork on you and burst your bubble, but I already responded on that second link. >_>

@ Kash: I think homosexuality is nature's way of controlling the amount of births. The amount of people on this planet has grown explosively the last few decades. This seems plausible to me at least.
 
Yes but what is the programming to make some of us homosexual to control birth. No one told gays to be gay or lesbians to be lesbians but to there own agenda did they become this. So it isn't plausible.
 
I honestly doubt there's an actual line between homosexuality and heterosexuality, I think we're just raised to think that way. Oh well, I wouldn't know.
I'm no expert on animal behaviour or anything like that either, nor do I know the function of homosexuality in nature, so I'm not going to make any claims about it.

But kash, you pointed out a pretty important something:
"but in the end of the day God will judge us not them"
What makes us so very different from animals? We function exactly like animals, everything about us is exactly like most animals, our intestines, our DNA, our teeth, and so on. And we can also be perfectly linked to other animals in an evolutionary context. The only things which claim that we are not animals, are the religious books (and some fairytales and stuff, of course). Seriously, you can't claim you love science and blindly believe a book like this, it's just logically impossible, either you deny most of the scientific discoveries of the last decades, or you accept them as valid and therefore logically assume that any religious book cannot be factual.

And I'm sorry, afstandopleren, I didn't see your response regarding the 2nd link. I hope you're going to be a bit more sceptical about stuff like this in the future. If you would've be at least been half as sceptical about these things as you are of the scientific method, you would have never believed this in the 1st place.
Seriously, it's amazing what people can do with stuff like photoshop, there's a lot of stuff like this circulating the net.
 
Well neither do I on homosexuality but took an educated guess.

Why are we the same as animals we can be classified as animals because we 'evolved' from the same thing and have the same features to a certain extent but thats when it stops.

We are much more intelligient compared to them. We have more developed emotions. We can understand beyond their comprehension.

I don't see animals comparable in that sense to us. Yes they live in communities like us, they help us but we are by far more superior.

We are special as we have the choice of free will and have been given the choice of God or not.

We can do do things that are un-imaginable
 
As an Esoteric belief may suggest, who's to say that humans aren't reincarnated into animals? Obviously this is slightly far fetched, but the overall idea is quite intriguing. Based upon your overall deeds in life, that is how you will be judged for which "class" of species you will be placed. Now, it doesn't stop with species either. Being born with mental or physical illnesses would be "punishments" for your past life(s).

Then again, those types of religions (Cabala etc.) also believe in multiple plains of existence. So basically, the essential idea of our world being a benefactor or minority in another world/reality.

In conclusion, don't judge animals so harshly! =9
 
How does your God explain us "evolving" from the same thing? Are you admitting the validity of evolution here? And we have ALL THE SAME FEATURES. Find me one feature in humans which cannot be found in animals and which could not have been formed through evolution (and I don't mean hypothetical evolution here, I mean visible in actual fossils).

If we were oh so very intelligent, we wouldn't be believing blatant lies as truths and trying to defend them at all costs. What do you know about the intelligence of other animals? You can't communicate with them, you can only observe their behaviour. For all we know, they could be thinking about philosophy or something...
A bigger intellect is also a logical step in evolution, this proves absolutely nothing.

Animals have free will, it's not like they can't go and do whatever they want. They might not be able to think about what they're doing as much us (although for example primates have a very developed brain), but they still have free will. We have this weird idea that "free will" is something high and mighty which can only be achieved because of our superior intellect, but it's actually pretty basic if you think about it.

The choice of "God or not?", 2 of the second please. I think you mean the choice of believing in a deity or not, right? Well, duh, everyone has the right to trick themselves into believing something, I don't see what this has to do with anything. And I don't see why animals would not be able to lie to themselves, or even conceive the idea of a deity...

And your last sentence makes no sense, elaborate.
 
When I was putting evolving in inverted commas I was being scientific. :p

We are so much more different to animals. I don't understand why you try and argue an animal is comparable to our intelligience.

We have varied languages, we can create atomic bombs and super computers and so on.

I think your right when you say everyone has the ability to trick themselves yet very few pick the right choice...

Also on another subject, we are one of the most dependant beings in this world.

We have to become quite an age before we can leave our mothers. We depend entirely on animals for survival. We need their skins, bones and meat.

If we evolved why do we need such items. Why did we lose most of our hair? People in the cold countries shouldn't have evolved.

Also did you watch that video in my response to your accusation at Islam stating the sun revolves around Earth?
 
Don't have much time ATM...
1) your vid doesn't show up, sorry.
2) Intelligence doesn't even come close to proving there's a God, increase of intelligence is a prediction of evolution, gradual and noticible increase in intelligence throughout different species and in accordance to their assumed place in evolution is one of the many evidences for evolution. This all is unexplained by a religion, and contradictory to what rational predictions about creation would be.
3) We discovered fire, that helped a lot.
4) Like all primates, we are born before having a fully developed body, again, like all primates. Don't have time for other arguments about this.
5) We can survive without other animals, but our ancestors already used tools millions of years ago, so logically we evolved based on that.
6) Our origins lie in Africa, no fur = cooler = more adapt to the environment there.
Don't have much time to look up exactly why, though.
 
Exactly how are we are "so much more different" to animals? We're simply one of the most successful and intelligent species.

Of course the most successful would be bacteria and viruses.
 
kashmaster said:
Why are we the same as animals we can be classified as animals because we 'evolved' from the same thing and have the same features to a certain extent but thats when it stops.

We are much more intelligient compared to them. We have more developed emotions. We can understand beyond their comprehension.

I don't see animals comparable in that sense to us. Yes they live in communities like us, they help us but we are by far more superior.

We are so much more different to animals. I don't understand why you try and argue an animal is comparable to our intelligience.

We have varied languages, we can create atomic bombs and super computers and so on.

I think your right when you say everyone has the ability to trick themselves yet very few pick the right choice...

Also on another subject, we are one of the most dependant beings in this world.

We have to become quite an age before we can leave our mothers. We depend entirely on animals for survival. We need their skins, bones and meat.

If we evolved why do we need such items. Why did we lose most of our hair? People in the cold countries shouldn't have evolved.

Ok, this almost looks like you don't have respect for animals. Let me explain a few things:

You said we are way way smarter than any other animal, well that's kinda true, but a dog is way way smarter too than a snail... But we're almost the same like apes. Chimpanzees are almost the same as us. We are smarter because we can teach things to other people. Primates don't do that, they life together and need eachother to survive, but they don't teach each other things, after all they are a bit more individual;

I've seen a documentairy about primates a few weeks ago. It was about a box and you had to press lots of different buttons and such and finally you could take a candy out. There was a person who showed how the box worked in front of a child and a chimpanzee (not in the same room ofcourse). They both did the same the person did in order to obtain the candy. Then they did the same thing with a box made out of glass, and it revealed it wasn't necessary to press all those buttons ad such. The human child did the same as first, it repeated everything the person did to and obtained the candy. However, the chimpanzee saw immediately it was unnecessary to do all those things (box of glass), and went straight for the candy. This means 2 things; the chimpanzee is smarter than the child cuz it knew how the box worked, but at the same time, the human child did the same as the person and learned something... (this was typed after the piece below, so bit weird order) but another explanation here:

Next question; if they don't teach each other we could teach them and they should be as smart as us, right? No, because i.e. chimpanzees don't have one important feature which is very important by teaching; I don't know how it's called but you can see it as a triangle. A triangle which forms between you (the one who teaches), the person (who suposed to learn something) and the object/happening (where the person can learn from). If the teacher, you in this example, points to something where the chimpanzee has to put its atention to, he doens't understand. He can only make a ''invisible'' line between you and him and the object/happening and him, not the line between you and the object/happening, that's the missing feature, apart from that they're the same as humans.

And why we lost our fur is because, like Heavenly Spoon already said, our origins are in Africa, hot climate, so we didn't need the fur. We also discovered fire to keep us warm and making clothes from other animals, especially neede in the colder north, and so we were able to survive in almost any environment...

pfff.... long post, hope this makes some clear despite my bad english
 
1) Hmm the vid doesn't show up, ok I just checked up and write down in google: Does the quran say that the Sun orbits around the Earth? the first link should be the video :)

2) Why doesn't intelligience prove God? We just some how became so intelligent compared to the rest of the animal kingdom. If there has been 4 billion years in the making why couldn't one animal come close to us. See evolution just doesn't work.

4) But Primates children can become independent of there mother by so much years compared to humans. Why are we weaker than gorillas? We need strength yet most of us are weak. Why can't we climb like apes? It sure would help, builders espicially :p. Why are we not as agile? Surely that is a benefit in any environment.

5) We cannot survive without other animals. Surely fire was not with us when we were hunting or when we went for a stroll in the park

6) So when did the continental drift occur? Surely we didn't have the tools to make a boat to get to Europe, America and Asia unless you are saying we were in Africa until recently.
 
the only time Africa and Europe where connected was during Pangea and a small period of time after that. I don't believe that a bunch of Neanderthals got lucky crossing the sea.

And btw, the Fur comment kinda fails when most of us have WHITE skin (Most of us for as far I know). The dark skin actually is better in warm climates then white...DUH. Unless a couple of generations were exposed to something like bleach, I don't think we could have obtained our white skin color fast. Also, if we evolved according to Darwin and adapted, then surely white people would be much different in appearance then just a white skin then those people as the climate is like waaaaaaay different then in Africa. Ugh, I am having a hard time to explain this. I hope people will get what I mean with this.
 
Still too busy to do a full post, but here's a few thoughts thought.

If we really evolved exactly how Darwin said, then please explain why anything has emotion? Emotion isn't logical at all. If anything, it hinders us and causes problems such as pointless fighting. It does nothing to help us survive. Why would anything ever evolve with emotion? It's such a pointless thing to have.

Also, some of the smartest people EVER believed in God. Einstein believed in God. Considering that all the stuff he did, you would think that he would be a perfect example of a non believer, but he wasn't.

I'll get to that big post eventually... may have to be after nats though.
 
afstandopleren said:
the only time Africa and Europe where connected was during Pangea and a small period of time after that. I don't believe that a bunch of Neanderthals got lucky crossing the sea.
Dude, seriously, look up the evidence. Don't have time ATM, but I could lecture you about it for an hour or so if you'd wish.

afstandopleren said:
And btw, the Fur comment kinda fails when most of us have WHITE skin (Most of us for as far I know). The dark skin actually is better in warm climates then white...DUH. Unless a couple of generations were exposed to something like bleach, I don't think we could have obtained our white skin color fast. Also, if we evolved according to Darwin and adapted, then surely white people would be much different in appearance then just a white skin then those people as the climate is like waaaaaaay different then in Africa. Ugh, I am having a hard time to explain this. I hope people will get what I mean with this.
For evolution to be optimal, there have to be very isolated groups, this was never really the case with modern humans. There are noticible difference, though. Like, we have more facial and body hair (ha!)
Also, black skin means you need more vitamine, what was it, Z? which you get out of sunlight, which we don't have over here much, which is why we don't have black skin.

Don't have time for you kash, exam coming up, I'll be back.
 
^ Vitamin D.
kashmaster said:
Why are we the same as animals we can be classified as animals because we 'evolved' from the same thing and have the same features to a certain extent but thats when it stops.

[...]

We have more developed emotions.

[...]

We have to become quite an age before we can leave our mothers. We depend entirely on animals for survival. We need their skins, bones and meat.

If you saw how elephants grieve, you wouldn't be so quick to make that statement.

Other animals also need a lot of time before leaving their mothers. Such as whales. They need to be taught to dive and hunt.

DarthPika said:
Still too busy to do a full post, but here's a few thoughts thought.

If we really evolved exactly how Darwin said, then please explain why anything has emotion? Emotion isn't logical at all. If anything, it hinders us and causes problems such as pointless fighting. It does nothing to help us survive. Why would anything ever evolve with emotion? It's such a pointless thing to have.

Also, some of the smartest people EVER believed in God. Einstein believed in God. Considering that all the stuff he did, you would think that he would be a perfect example of a non believer, but he wasn't.

I'll get to that big post eventually... may have to be after nats though.

Emotion helps instill morals, which do help a species survive. If you feel revolted by something, you probably won't do it. Also, if you love another member of your species, you are more likely to protect them. (IMHO)
Btw, I mostly see evidence of emotion in mammals.

The beliefs of a few specific people do not prove anything, no matter how smart they were.
The beliefs of a majority of people do not prove anything either; people are gullible.

I'm looking forward to your big post.
 
Heavenly Spoon :F said:
afstandopleren said:
the only time Africa and Europe where connected was during Pangea and a small period of time after that. I don't believe that a bunch of Neanderthals got lucky crossing the sea.
Dude, seriously, look up the evidence. Don't have time ATM, but I could lecture you about it for an hour or so if you'd wish.

afstandopleren said:
And btw, the Fur comment kinda fails when most of us have WHITE skin (Most of us for as far I know). The dark skin actually is better in warm climates then white...DUH. Unless a couple of generations were exposed to something like bleach, I don't think we could have obtained our white skin color fast. Also, if we evolved according to Darwin and adapted, then surely white people would be much different in appearance then just a white skin then those people as the climate is like waaaaaaay different then in Africa. Ugh, I am having a hard time to explain this. I hope people will get what I mean with this.
For evolution to be optimal, there have to be very isolated groups, this was never really the case with modern humans. There are noticible difference, though. Like, we have more facial and body hair (ha!)
Also, black skin means you need more vitamine, what was it, Z? which you get out of sunlight, which we don't have over here much, which is why we don't have black skin.

Don't have time for you kash, exam coming up, I'll be back.

I am honestly getting a bit tired of your science this and science that. A good conversation is held when all involved parties are open to suggestions and willing to change their way of thinking if necessary to understand the other parties. Your participation however, seems to slowly kill this topic with your rock solid faith in science, which I find rather sad. You are not open to anything people are presenting to you besides facts that have been proved by science at this time of day while you openly admitted that today's science has it's limits.
 
@ apophys, I am sure all animals have emotions, did I say they never had emotions or did I say we have far superior and developed emotions?

@ Heavenly, ok talk to me later and good luck on your exams, I aced mine just now :D
 
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