#4: Is intelligent design a viable argument for the existence of God?

[Heavenly Spoon]

Gravity can be OBSERVED and MEASURED. You might not be able to see it (just like you can't see most forces and energy), but it's obviously there. You're not floating mid-air, are you?
Oxygen can also be observed quite easily, and proving it exists is a piece of cake. Balloons can be filled up with Oxygen, and a lot of stuff can be sucked vacuum, removing the oxygen. Light also gets blocked by Oxygen, although less than, say, wood, or even water. Light travelling through the gasses in the atmosphere is the reason why it's blue. If you're place enough Oxygen between a lightsource and an observer, it would be perfectly possible to make it pitch-black, effectively causing it to be visible.

Your precious little God, however, is obsolete in nature and has never been observed, witnessed or measured by an objective observer, especially not within a scientific context.

Your argument of: "It cannot be proven that it's not there, therefore it's there" is also an obviously ridiculous one. Have a vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtVWPfydXMM&feature=channel_page

Also, science can't be a figment of someone's imagination, because it works. If it would be, we'd all be living in this person's imagination, and science would allow us to see how his or her imagination works. I hope you're not going to go defy science in favour of God all of the sudden now, I hope you know why.

Also, for the lulz:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkhQLt1vbWU&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swlsqkAyxqY&feature=channel_page (PG-13, but not so much)
I love this dude.

 

[afstandopleren]

Also, for the lulz:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkhQLt1vbWU&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swlsqkAyxqY&feature=channel_page (PG-13, but not so much)
I love this dude.

Lolwut @ second vid. And this can't be a coincidence, I received proof today that Giants DID exist! =O
But seriously, that WAS hilarious.

 

[Heavenly Spoon]

Lolwut @ second vid. And this can't be a coincidence, I received proof today that Giants DID exist! =O
But seriously, that WAS hilarious.

He has a bunch of vids like that, if you're that interested, just check his profile.

Giants like Robert Wadlow can be easily explained by hypertrophy of the pituitary gland. It's a disease, and people who suffer from it usually don't live too long (I believe there's a cure of some sort now, like with a lot of hormonal diseases). Pretty much all of the "giants" ever found most likely suffered from this or something similar.
It's most certainly not a gift of God to be a giant like this, nor are the fossils old enough for them to be biblical.

 

[afstandopleren]

Lolwut @ second vid. And this can't be a coincidence, I received proof today that Giants DID exist! =O
But seriously, that WAS hilarious.

He has a bunch of vids like that, if you're that interested, just check his profile.

Giants like Robert Wadlow can be easily explained by hypertrophy of the pituitary gland. It's a disease, and people who suffer from it usually don't live too long (I believe there's a cure of some sort now, like with a lot of hormonal diseases). Pretty much all of the "giants" ever found most likely suffered from this or something similar.
It's most certainly not a gift of God to be a giant like this, nor are the fossils old enough for them to be biblical.

Weird, I typed something but it didn't show up so I have to edit my post just to make sure people know what I wrote. >.<
I was talking about human skeletons that are approx 5 meter... but I guess you will have to take a look at it yourself before one can believe it. I must admit, I didn't either before I saw the pics. BTW it's okay if someone can disprove it but the pics look soooooooooooo real.

 

[Heavenly Spoon]

I'm surprised this isn't some huge media hype thing yet...
I'd wait for an actual scientific source (National Geographic really isn't) to make an article about this, to see what biologists have to say about it.
It does seem interesting, but the possibility of a fraud also exists, these seem too well preserved to not be ritually buried or something. I'd expect at least a temple if they were indeed the creatures of God.

How old is that article, BTW?

EDIT: Almost forgot about one of my favourite: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjJa57htqcI&feature=channel_page

 

[Ka$h Money]

@ Heavenly Spoon, I know you can measure and to a certain extent observe Gravity but so can God.
I can see him from his creations and I can see him from miracles and from him listening to my prayers.

I am sure if God didn't exist then according to science, the situations where God has helped me must be a coincidence, yet it has happen to many times to count

I did not claim your accusation, I say you can prove God and don't ask me how as I have said it too many times. You know something is there by evidence, so I see that with God.

I certainly believe that if evolution is right then I will just wait until someone can give me full evidence of it happening as we can't observe evolution taking place neither can we measure it.

Also I wouldn't defy science I love it , just because I don't agree with one theory doesn't mean I don't believe any.

I am in a way a sceptic, If I cannot see evolution take place then I don't have to believe it.


Finally thanks for the laughs, that guy is so funny and sarcastic. You have lightened my mood

 

[afstandopleren]

I'm surprised this isn't some huge media hype thing yet...
I'd wait for an actual scientific source (National Geographic really isn't) to make an article about this, to see what biologists have to say about it.
It does seem interesting, but the possibility of a fraud also exists, these seem too well preserved to not be ritually buried or something. I'd expect at least a temple if they were indeed the creatures of God.

How old is that article, BTW?

EDIT: Almost forgot about one of my favourite: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjJa57htqcI&feature=channel_page

Why are you surprised if you know that even the media is directed by someone higher up, choosing what we get to see in the news? And I honestly don't know how old. I just got it from a friend who found it on the web but he didn't mention which site. HOWEVER, the quality of the pic indicates that it must have been within the last 10 years imho.

@Kashmaster: Double Post FTW!

 

[Ka$h Money]

Well I believe in this as the first humans were approximatly 10 metres tall, there is a massive foot print in sri lanka, which muslims believe is the footstep of Adam.

EDIT:

yeah double post FTW!

 

[afstandopleren]

Looking at the pics, tall humans seem to have a decent chance of having existed. =P It could possibly also explain some things like Stonehenge (You are not going to tell me some feeble humans rolled those stones to where it is now right?).

 

[Heavenly Spoon]

Kash, modern biology is largely based on the theory of evolution, defying evolution would be defying a pretty large part of biology. Evolution also goes hand in hand with genetics, chemistry, geography, and pretty much every other major science. It is one of the most universally accepted theories within the scientific community. It's pretty much a scientific fact, denying it yet stating you love science is a downright paradox.

About design: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lcrq5OOkQdk&feature=channel_page

Also, Kash, if you attribute every positive thing in your life to God, and none of your mistakes, then of course it's going to seem like God did a lot to help you, but that doesn't make it proof. If God is so loving and caring to those who believe in him, how come very religious Africa is in such great misery whilst I, an unholy atheist, am living a pretty comfortable life.

Also, seriously, show the evidence. As the vid in one of my previous posts (about the box) shows, I'm not the one who needs to be providing evidence. If Newton would propose gravity and just say "you just know it's there", it wouldn't be in the textbooks right now, you need EVIDENCE, OBSERVATIONS, ANALYSIS, TEST RESULTS, CONFIRMATIONS, and so on. Just claiming something is real doesn't make it real, and won't convince anyone. (hopefully...)

 

[Ka$h Money]

See because of God I have made very few and these were down to me alone.

Well as I have said many times before God gave us the Earth to look after and maintain, also all that in habit it. We have done this to ourself. God doesn't need to be part of this. We are part of a democracy yet we believe science is more important than people.

That is a sad day for man kind.

I said many times before I can prove God by miracles, the Quran, The Universe.

You are having a hard time with this so I suggest you read it in a completely non-biased view like I have with science.

I have done both and experienced both whilst correct me if I am wrong you haven't.

 

[afstandopleren]

You REALLY need to take a good second look at yourself before you claim that you made few mistakes because I am REALLY not buying what you are saying now.

However, I do agree with the where people believe more in science then in something else....for a bit. I still find the God part taken out of context for many things. The rest is just typical 'believer' behavior. As a something-ist, the whole "We exist so God exists" thing comes across as pretty stupid imho.

 

[Ka$h Money]

I am telling you now that I honestly have made very few mistakes compared to many. Anyway God is not a result of my ignorance or stupidity I am.

 

[Heavenly Spoon]

See because of God I have made very few and these were down to me alone.

Made very few what? Mistakes? How many do you think your average Atheist makes?

Well as I have said many times before God gave us the Earth to look after and maintain, also all that in habit it. We have done this to ourself. God doesn't need to be part of this. We are part of a democracy yet we believe science is more important than people.

That is a sad day for man kind.

We claim to be a rational society, yet we believe in a deity with no evidence supporting his existence more than we trust scientific research. This is a sad day for man kind.

If we have to take care of ourselves, and those who pray to God get no benefits from believing in him, then how is your life being so good and everything evidence for God helping you? Checkmate.
But seriously, this sounds like a serious contradiction to me. Please explain to me as clearly as possible how God interferes with our lives.

Also, science HELPS the people (increased life expectancy in more scientifically advanced countries as evidence here), religion on many occasions does the exact opposite. The church and its dogmas about birth control is one of the main reasons why the AIDS pandemic is still growing significantly, for example. Homosexuals being executed in some Arabic countries based on some verses in the Qur'an as another example.

I said many times before I can prove God by miracles, the Quran, The Universe.

The Qur'an? Seriously? If I'm not mistaken, that's the same book which, on numerous occasions, claims that the sun orbits around the Earth. I doubt you'll find much evidence in there. The way it is written (poetically) also allows for an unlimited amount of interpretations, making it easy to adapt it to current science. It's just too vague.
Also, miracles are unexplained phenomenons. Claiming God did it is exactly what I've been talking about for the last 6 pages, using God as a simple answer for everything.
The universe, as I've also shown numerous times, could have perfectly formed without divine intervention. Good luck finding evidence there.

You are having a hard time with this so I suggest you read it in a completely non-biased view like I have with science.

I have done both and experienced both whilst correct me if I am wrong you haven't.

Give me one, and I mean one, scientifically accepted paper acknowledging the possible existence of God.

I have also tried to find counter-arguments to the popular scientific arguments and failed oh so many times, and most of the creationist arguments are largely unsupported arguments full of fallacies and misconceptions. It's like most creationists just ignore these arguments and move on, like YOU, and many others in this thread, have been doing to mine. I'm still waiting for someone to counter my "there is no soul" argument (which makes religion obsolete). I'll retype it some day later (exams, don't have much time) to remind people.

I tend to trust the side of science on this a little more as well (call it bias if you will, but I'd call it logic), as for something to become a scientific theory, it has to go through the scientific method, whilst creationist arguments are usually backed up by very little, and go through pretty much no evaluation.

 

[afstandopleren]

I am telling you now that I honestly have made very few mistakes compared to many. Anyway God is not a result of my ignorance or stupidity I am.

If you really have, than good for you. I do hope the truth of your claim will unveil itself someday tho.

 

[Ka$h Money]

Wow there is a lot to talk about X_x

@ Heavenly Spoon,

First quote, in my honest opinion, I have made very few mistakes as I have followed my religion accordingly. But I am only human so I make mistakes. I don't know how many mistakes an atheist makes??? It depends what type of guy you are.


Second Quote: Those who pray to God have the biggest reward, you may not see it but I do. We live in a rational soceity, I don't disclaim that but we are corrupted enough to put something before human rights.

That is a sad day for man kind

For example : Why do we need to make massive bombs, what is the reason? Why do we need to go to outer space ATM. We can't even fulfil human needs. Just the money gone towards NASA could've saved the world from poverty like 3 times, 3 TIMES!

Third Quote: In the immortal words of Science, where is the Evidence??? Give me that evidence then I don't believe in the Quran.

How can the universe form so perfectly, from the best environment for 'evolution' to take place, to the positioning of the planets i.e Jupiter has saved our planet many times coincidence?

Fourth Quote: Urm like I said you can't make a judgement on face value or judging a book by its cover. You must listen, read and enlighten yourself of the quran to fully believe it.

@ Andofsporen (I can't spell it )

You will find out everyone's deepest secrets on the Day of Judgement

 

[afstandopleren]

@Kashmaster: I hope so, then I can finally see some justice. And just the first 3 letters of my username will suffice next time.

 

[Ka$h Money]

You will see some justice trust me. Just see it like this:

If there isn't God oh well I just decompose and thats it.

If there is then all the Good I have done hopefully will be rewarded.

Seriously that is a win/win situation.

I admit, I am not the best of people but I make sure I do my utmost to be close

 

[Pokequaza]

EDIT: Almost forgot about one of my favourite: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjJa57htqcI&feature=channel_page

Whahaha lol: ''There's the Sun, a disc, or possibly a ball of fire, that must be far away and really big, hundreds of miles across. The moon is almost the same exact size as the Sun, only it's made of something other than fire: cheese'' xD omg how many mistakes can you make in a minute, but i must admit, he's hilarious!!

You will find out everyone's deepest secrets on the Day of Judgement

Day of Judgement, that fairytale about the Earth being terrorised???

---

For example : Why do we need to make massive bombs, what is the reason? Why do we need to go to outer space ATM. We can't even fulfil human needs. Just the money gone towards NASA could've saved the world from poverty like 3 times, 3 TIMES!

Well maybe it can... actually no... to save the poverty 3 times would cost like... nah.. too much. But science is so very important, you've to see that, science gave you a PC/MAC to discuss about this, god didn't. Science gave us ways of transportations, explainations etc... god didn't... the bible did neither...

How can the universe form so perfectly, from the best environment for 'evolution' to take place, to the positioning of the planets I.e Jupiter has saved our planet many times coincidence?

Uhm... it's easy to explain; When our Solar-system was born, you know all different kinds of material twisting and flying through space, heavier materials were pulled towards the middle (gravity...) lighter material (gasses etc.) gattered(?) far from the middle. That explains why the first 4 planets are made of (mostly) solid materials, there were more gasses then solid materials (gasses can form much easier than solid materials, they need more atoms, gasses don't need much). So there were more gasses, explains why Jupiter, Saturn etc. are bigger than others, also have more mass, more mass = more gravity, more gravity means it pulls more materials to itself and so saved out planet from astroids.

 

[apophys]

For example : Why do we need to make massive bombs, what is the reason? Why do we need to go to outer space ATM. We can't even fulfil human needs. Just the money gone towards NASA could've saved the world from poverty like 3 times, 3 TIMES!

Third Quote: In the immortal words of Science, where is the Evidence??? Give me that evidence then I don't believe in the Quran.

How can the universe form so perfectly, from the best environment for 'evolution' to take place, to the positioning of the planets I.e Jupiter has saved our planet many times coincidence?

"Why do we need to make massive bombs, what is the reason?"
I completely agree here; the defense budget is WAY too big.

"Why do we need to go to outer space ATM. We can't even fulfill human needs."
Space helps to fulfill those needs.
"Going to space" has already helped society with the introduction of new products made to withstand conditions of space, but have been found to be useful on Earth. Necessity is the mother of invention.
Also the communications satellites, etc, etc.
The possible future of space is also interesting. Nearly unlimited free electricity from solar panels in orbit, cheap access via a space elevator, etc.

"Just the money gone towards NASA could've saved the world from poverty like 3 times, 3 TIMES!"
I dispute that figure. Show me the source.
I have already stated that the budget priorities are off. However, NASA's budget, IMHO, is far too SMALL.

"How can the universe form so perfectly, from the best environment for 'evolution' to take place to the positioning of the planets? E.g. Jupiter has saved our planet many times; coincidence?" (I fixed your grammar; I hope you don't mind.)
Ah.
I'll deal with this in a separate post. It seems lots of people are simply uneducated on current theories.
The spacing of the planets generally follows an order, this is described by Bode's Law (the exact mechanism behind which is currently unknown). Jupiter just got really friggin' big. Its gravity kept the asteroid belt from coalescing into a planet, which, IMHO, is not very helpful to the Earth.