#4: Is intelligent design a viable argument for the existence of God?
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If that's the only reason for not posting it, what's holding you back?
If I see viable evidence for the existence of a deity, I don't see why I wouldn't believe in it? I don't believe in a God because he seems obsolete and I refuse to believe something for no valid reason, especially because of the lack of evidence. If religion suddenly gains evidence, and this evidence withstands the scientific method and fits perfectly within the generally accepted science, I see absolutely no reason not to believe it.
But if you're not going to show "evidence" because you think I'll question it's validity, then you're just avoiding debate and being downright silly... Just show me, what's the worse that can happen?
It's like you're all afraid of being proven wrong, but there's nothing wrong with that, it means you've learned something, opened your mind and got something out of it, wouldn't that be great?
And I have never ignored or discounted an argument, I have tried to respond to every single one in this thread and counter them to be best of my abilities. Why are you accusing me of this? Maybe you're just the one who's discounting mine?
If I see viable evidence for the existence of a deity, I don't see why I wouldn't believe in it? I don't believe in a God because he seems obsolete and I refuse to believe something for no valid reason, especially because of the lack of evidence. If religion suddenly gains evidence, and this evidence withstands the scientific method and fits perfectly within the generally accepted science, I see absolutely no reason not to believe it.
But if you're not going to show "evidence" because you think I'll question it's validity, then you're just avoiding debate and being downright silly... Just show me, what's the worse that can happen?
It's like you're all afraid of being proven wrong, but there's nothing wrong with that, it means you've learned something, opened your mind and got something out of it, wouldn't that be great?
And I have never ignored or discounted an argument, I have tried to respond to every single one in this thread and counter them to be best of my abilities. Why are you accusing me of this? Maybe you're just the one who's discounting mine?
Yes I would like to see some proof as well, I wonder what you have up your sleeve?
Dude, either you have evidence or you don't. You can't have a debate claiming you have evidence, only to not show it. And is this like a single piece of evidence? If God is so easy to prove, it shouldn't take long to look it up. Most of my posts on evolution here are mostly from memory, the theory's just that obvious. I have also posted extremely long posts filled with evidence and the logic behind the theory, as well as showing how God is not at all needed in there, why can't you do this? ._.
You could at least try to prove me wrong on some points. Start with the non-existence of the soul or something, I'd love to see you respond to that...
Why can't I get a decent debate out of this thread? :'(
You could at least try to prove me wrong on some points. Start with the non-existence of the soul or something, I'd love to see you respond to that...
Why can't I get a decent debate out of this thread? :'(
You didn't get a semi-decent debate out of me? 
Heavenly Spoon, I think i'm going to do some research this weekend in time-space. So hopefully I can post something.
Darthpika, I would like to see some evidence too. It looks your afraid of being proved wrong. Don't be, just post plz. This week I posted a lot of wrong information in the In-Game Pokemon thread too (srry about that), Dezuray corrected me a few times (thnx for that ;D) and I accepted my mistakes. I don't believe in god, but I think you should post something here about the evidence he does exist. And uhmm... searching for it? Don't you know it by yourself?
Well then I wish you good luck finding it, and I hope to see some evidence of the existence of god here soon. Please don't post things like: I can feel it when I pray (cuz that's not evidence). Let's say: May the force be with you. (srry i'm watching SW 3 at the moment ;D)
Darthpika, I would like to see some evidence too. It looks your afraid of being proved wrong. Don't be, just post plz. This week I posted a lot of wrong information in the In-Game Pokemon thread too (srry about that), Dezuray corrected me a few times (thnx for that ;D) and I accepted my mistakes. I don't believe in god, but I think you should post something here about the evidence he does exist. And uhmm... searching for it? Don't you know it by yourself?
Well then I wish you good luck finding it, and I hope to see some evidence of the existence of god here soon. Please don't post things like: I can feel it when I pray (cuz that's not evidence). Let's say: May the force be with you. (srry i'm watching SW 3 at the moment ;D)
now we at least know the reason you started these threads.
why do all dutch speaking members here seek discussion? (i'm dutch too)
as soon as you find something "decent" to debate on, i will debate.
the relegion discussion can't end, and science will win. why? science has many tricks upon it's sleeves, and can be developed.
if relegion changes, it will lose all credibility as something 2 years old couldn't have shaped earth.
why do all dutch speaking members here seek discussion? (i'm dutch too)
as soon as you find something "decent" to debate on, i will debate.
the relegion discussion can't end, and science will win. why? science has many tricks upon it's sleeves, and can be developed.
if relegion changes, it will lose all credibility as something 2 years old couldn't have shaped earth.
Discussing is the whole meaning of this, isn't it? ''Let's discuss'' you know the i think almost most important quote of whole the Pokebeach forums. And there's nothing wrong with it. And if i'm not wrong debating is getting people to your side to believe you. In this science vs religion thing it wouldn't work. Somebody who believes in god is not going to give up that very easily and change his/her mind only because science prove god doesn't exist, and otherwise. But it wouldn't hurt to share some information through a discussion wouldn't it?red blastoise said:
Descartes' ontological argument
We have the idea of an infinitely perfect Being. Since we are finite, and everything around us is finite, the idea of an infinitely perfect Being could not have originated with us or with the nature around us. Therefore the idea of an infinitely perfect Being must have come from such a being - God
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Good argument, or otherwise? (Those of you who know me well probably know what I think of this argument).
I guess the intelligent design argument is not going anywhere, so might as well change course slightly. Set sails for metaphysics!
We have the idea of an infinitely perfect Being. Since we are finite, and everything around us is finite, the idea of an infinitely perfect Being could not have originated with us or with the nature around us. Therefore the idea of an infinitely perfect Being must have come from such a being - God
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Good argument, or otherwise? (Those of you who know me well probably know what I think of this argument).
I guess the intelligent design argument is not going anywhere, so might as well change course slightly. Set sails for metaphysics!
I soooo do not follow. Just because some person could grasp the infinity of something and labeled it God, doesn't mean he's correct. Also, who says we are finite? There are numerous people talking about having proof of reincarnation. I know that it might be a poor example, but it's the only thing my sleepy brain can think of atm.
The Indians and Greek had some ideas about infinity, which was long before monotheism was invented. So yeah, the argument fails even without having to disprove the general underestimation of the human brain.
The idea of infinity originates from mathematics, where it does somehow exist. So to say we never get in contact with infinity would be a lie.
Nobody can truly imagine infinity anyway, so the whole argument is pretty much moot.
The idea of infinity originates from mathematics, where it does somehow exist. So to say we never get in contact with infinity would be a lie.
Nobody can truly imagine infinity anyway, so the whole argument is pretty much moot.
what IS infinity anyway? If we can't grasp it, why do we know it's existence? That sounds like an uber paradox to me. =O
Just posing to let everyone know that I haven't forgotten about that super epic post I said I would write. I've been kind of busy over the past few days.
To afs, hears how I see that one.
Atom < Bug < You < Mountain < Earth < Solar System < Galaxy < Universe < ?
See a problem there? Each "system" is in something. Whats past the universe? Since we really no clue we just label it infinity. Lets say there are more universes past ours, then whats past them? That's the concept of infinity.
Or...
Take any number. You can divide that number forever and it just keeps getting smaller and smaller and smaller, yet you can always divide it in half again. That's also infinity. The same is true if you multiply a number by its self forever. Infinity! That's how we know of it's existence. It's not really a paradox. After all, you don't need to be able to grasp how a Hurricane works to experience it and know that it exists.
To afs, hears how I see that one.
Atom < Bug < You < Mountain < Earth < Solar System < Galaxy < Universe < ?
See a problem there? Each "system" is in something. Whats past the universe? Since we really no clue we just label it infinity. Lets say there are more universes past ours, then whats past them? That's the concept of infinity.
Or...
Take any number. You can divide that number forever and it just keeps getting smaller and smaller and smaller, yet you can always divide it in half again. That's also infinity. The same is true if you multiply a number by its self forever. Infinity! That's how we know of it's existence. It's not really a paradox. After all, you don't need to be able to grasp how a Hurricane works to experience it and know that it exists.
We know it exists through mathematics. But good luck imagining an infinite amount of something.afstandopleren said:
BTW, some things around us do seem infinite to the bronze-age observer: The sun, the moon, the stars, and so on.
And we label what the universe is in "unknown", DarthPika.
What's the meaning of this?? This doesn't actually make sense at allDarthPika said:
I understand the Planet (not Earth) < Solar System < Galaxy < Universe part, but the Bug, You and Mountain...? What if intelligent creatures are as big or smaller than bugs..? Then it doesn't make any sense at allHeavenly Spoon :F said:Of course I can, I'm from Belgium, it's my 1st language.
Anyhow, before I start translating, I found a pretty interesting video dealing with bacon's argument of the probability of life. I know it doesn't answer all his question, but whatever, more vids
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aGEXMyFWyg
Translation will be added here later in an edit, or will be in a new post if someone happens to reply to this before I get around to translating. Or if afstandopleren already translated it.
Thank you for linking to Thunderf00t. I'm subscribed to his videos and I love his "Why do people laugh at creationists?" series.
kashmaster said:lol I did answer your question, you may not understand it but it isn't my fault.
When I pray I can feel God around me and he is listening to my prayer
When I hope or wish for something, it actually works most of the time
This is not circumstance as it has happened numerous times.
Miracles are things that would never happen in a scientific world but some how occur.
This is not an attack at science, I am meerly presenting my ideas on God
This reminded me of something TheAmazingAtheist said in one of his youtube videos a while back. He said that he can understand people (mainly people with long jail sentences) believing in god to give them hope because it can be so easy to become hopeless while having to be in jail for such long periods of time. And this is partly why I no longer believe in god, because it just seems like a figment of our imaginations; something we created to satisfy our need to explain the unknown.
~Magma King~ said:
Haha thank you for pointing that out.
Edit: By the way, I just spent about an hour and a half reading through all 19 pages of this thread lol.
Pokequaza said:What's the meaning of this?? This doesn't actually make sense at allDarthPika said:
I concur with Pokequaza. The argument fails when not everything in existence is covered in the circle....but that would be almost infinitively long and thus, impossible to write... -.-
DarthPika said:Take any number. You can divide that number forever and it just keeps getting smaller and smaller and smaller, yet you can always divide it in half again. That's also infinity. The same is true if you multiply a number by its self forever. Infinity! That's how we know of it's existence. It's not really a paradox. After all, you don't need to be able to grasp how a Hurricane works to experience it and know that it exists.
I can grasp how a hurricane works because I know it's just wind that blows stronger at some places. >_> That's really not a good example IMHO.
About the divide (& conquer) part, you just pointed out the infinity found in mathematics, which is something completely different IMO then the infinity of some divine being. Just assigning it to something so you can have faith in something better then you, nature or even life itself (Like all God aligned religions tend to do), is wrong IMHO.
Infinity is a rational number. Even though we can't grasp it, it is still possible by all means. Seriously can you put up some proper stuff up about God. Im sorry to say this but it was a failed attempt.
@ Noob sandwich, That doesn't really make sense what you said about God? I pray to God as he listens to my prayers. I by no means am hopeless and have been to jail to have hope in a deity. I simply believe in it as you pray you reap the rewards.
Also isn't some of science a figment of someones imagination. We can't see something there but we know it is i.e Gravity, oxygen etc
Finally, if you had read throught the 19 pages properly you wouldve understood the muslim point of view regarding Heaven.
If you are not addressing that because it has been a while since I said and don't remember who replied and so on, then I am sorry
@ Noob sandwich, That doesn't really make sense what you said about God? I pray to God as he listens to my prayers. I by no means am hopeless and have been to jail to have hope in a deity. I simply believe in it as you pray you reap the rewards.
Also isn't some of science a figment of someones imagination. We can't see something there but we know it is i.e Gravity, oxygen etc
Finally, if you had read throught the 19 pages properly you wouldve understood the muslim point of view regarding Heaven.
If you are not addressing that because it has been a while since I said and don't remember who replied and so on, then I am sorry
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