P!P/Rules Are prize cards a good mechanic for a TCG?

[Tseus]

We've all been there. Whether it be the last copy of a card you need, that one-of that's essential to your deck, or even most/every copy of one of your deck's most essential cards, at one point or another we've unfairly lost a game because a card we really needed was prized. Can this mechanic really be justified? To be honest, it's completely asanine that you have to set aside 10% of your deck at the beginning of the match, potentially prizing several essential cards. A player also gains 1-2 cards whenever they take a knockout, giving them additional momentum after already knocking out one of your pokemon. It puts them at too much of advantage. The prize card mechanic introduces too much RNG into game and unfairly favors a player when they get a knockout.

What are your thoughts on the mechanic and what ways do you believe it could be improved?

I very much like prize cards. I actually dislike the fact that ptcg allows you to search your deck for whatever card is needed, instead of drawing into it naturally like other card games. Having a card prized is like having that card at the bottom of the deck in other games. Yeah it sucks that you didn't draw into it, but the game is fundamentally about overcoming obstacles. This is why we have a deck at all instead of a 60 card hand.

As a side note, Town Map is legal in standard for those people that dislike the prize card mechanic.

 

[Tseus]

Side decking was also pretty popular in YuGiOh(and to a lesser extent Hearthstone, though there it was you could switch classes/decks), and honestly would be a very fun feature to introduce in the Pokemon TCG, especially in helping for decks that have bad matchups over particular types. If it were translated to this game it would probably be called something like a PC Box where you could store 20 Pokemon/Trainers that could be accessed during 2 of 3 matches.

I deeply wish pokemon had multi-deck tournaments like Hearthstone. I understand though the ptcg is a much bigger financial commitment for each deck though

 

[myska707]

We do want Pokemon to grow and be a much better game, its why we want these changes. I don't mind the Prize Cards system but we could use some better rules and mechanics and MtG is a good example of them. We want to play Pokemon and not Magic. I'd settle for a Side Deck and a real mulligan.

To add sideboards would be to add a best out of 3 match. I agree the game can undergo some changes. I agree the game could be better. But we can't change the game so much as changing the entire format of tournaments just to create sideboards. There are decks that have advantages over other decks. That is just the way it is. If you add sideboards, the entire way we build decks will be altered as well as the entire way we play games.

 

[Chancewoot]

To add sideboards would be to add a best out of 3 match. I agree the game can undergo some changes. I agree the game could be better. But we can't change the game so much as changing the entire format of tournaments just to create sideboards. There are decks that have advantages over other decks. That is just the way it is. If you add sideboards, the entire way we build decks will be altered as well as the entire way we play games.

I honestly still don't really love the idea of side boards in the game as well. Not only would this change the dynamic of the tournaments a whole lot, but it would make certain decks way too good, while other decks would really hurt from it. For example, in a deck like Greninja where there isn't a whole lot of room for techs, a side board couldn't be used for too much. Compared to Elixir Yveltal where the deck core is relatively small in comparison, so you can choose from a lot of techs.

 

[TCG_Destory]

I think prizes are healthy in the Pokémon TCG. Sure, they can remove your ability to do something that you wanted/needed to do, or they can lock up a vital Pokémon to your strategy, but it helps the TCG in making it more fair. Both players have to give up 10% of their deck at the start and this can lead to differing plays and overall different games, which add to the interest of the game. You can almost always do something about the prized state of your needed card: for instance, in a game I played earlier with my Dragon Mega Rayquaza, I had my Hydreigon prized. I did not see that before I got it, but it still made me dig for one of my four Switch cards. If your Yveltal EX (another example) are both prized, you can work with baby Yveltal and power up other Pokémon and your Yveltal himself so he can KO even an opponent's Pokémon EX in three turns (40+40+110 with Fighting Fury Belt even knocks Zygarde EX out). You also have 170 HP to survive for a bit and then just give one prize. Town Map also allows you to get whatever you want from your prizes (when it's prized). I therefore think prizes are just adding interest and enriching the possibility pool in the TCG, with the only downside of sometimes, rarely, getting unfair.

 

[Latte1504]

To add sideboards would be to add a best out of 3 match. I agree the game can undergo some changes. I agree the game could be better. But we can't change the game so much as changing the entire format of tournaments just to create sideboards. There are decks that have advantages over other decks. That is just the way it is. If you add sideboards, the entire way we build decks will be altered as well as the entire way we play games.

Tournaments are typically Bo3

 

[Otaku]

I very much like prize cards. I actually dislike the fact that ptcg allows you to search your deck for whatever card is needed, instead of drawing into it naturally like other card games.

Except the Pokémon TCG does not allow you to search your deck for whatever card you want. It allows you to run certain cards that may carry that effect, but this is not unique to the Pokémon TCG. If you believe the costs are unbalanced, okay, but say that.

As a side note, Town Map is legal in standard for those people that dislike the prize card mechanic.

Town Map doesn't prevent you from using the Prize card mechanic, it merely turns those Prizes face down. Those six random cards are still removed from your deck. If you cannot take a KO at the right time, a card you need is still gone because the designers wanted a creative, different way of tracking victory than in the video games. Gotta emphasize that; s'okay if you like the Prize cards mechanic; it isn't the simplest, most self-contained way to measure things. All we have to do is have the KO'd Pokémon placed in a "Prize slot", so that you lose them after use instead of before. You don't get an added reward for KO's in a two player match; the reward is your opponent losing access to that Pokémon and eventually a win by KOing everything your opponent is running.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

To add sideboards would be to add a best out of 3 match. I agree the game can undergo some changes. I agree the game could be better. But we can't change the game so much as changing the entire format of tournaments just to create sideboards. There are decks that have advantages over other decks. That is just the way it is. If you add sideboards, the entire way we build decks will be altered as well as the entire way we play games.

Tournaments are best of 3 now. The only real change I can think of is they add 5 minutes to the game clock to compensate for side decks. Why should decks have unearned advantage? Why should we accept this? The point of a competitive game is to avoid players losing to something they can't really control. The best thing about side decks is it also weeds out decks that shouldn't exist, like night march and related deck because we can place things like Karen in the side deck. Whats better is we can run more consistent decks.

I play other card games where actually building a deck takes skill. Because side decks exist and there are more cards to worry about, you simply can't build something like Night March and expect to do well for more than like one tournament, especially if it won a big tournament. In Pokemon, you're allowed to get away with anything you want and I think thats something that should change.

 

[Chancewoot]

Except the Pokémon TCG does not allow you to search your deck for whatever card you want. It allows you to run certain cards that may carry that effect, but this is not unique to the Pokémon TCG. If you believe the costs are unbalanced, okay, but say that.



Town Map doesn't prevent you from using the Prize card mechanic, it merely turns those Prizes face down. Those six random cards are still removed from your deck. If you cannot take a KO at the right time, a card you need is still gone because the designers wanted a creative, different way of tracking victory than in the video games. Gotta emphasize that; s'okay if you like the Prize cards mechanic; it isn't the simplest, most self-contained way to measure things. All we have to do is have the KO'd Pokémon placed in a "Prize slot", so that you lose them after use instead of before. You don't get an added reward for KO's in a two player match; the reward is your opponent losing access to that Pokémon and eventually a win by KOing everything your opponent is running.

Wouldn't my proposed system fix all the issues of the prize system, while keeping it basic?

 

[Otaku]

Wouldn't my proposed system fix all the issues of the prize system, while keeping it basic?

Wouldn't mine and several others presented here? XD

I quoted @Tseus because I found his arguments faulty. I mean, dude can totally love the Prize mechanic: I did at first too! Then I got to thinking about it, and realized

1. Only aligns with video games if we count after match rewards (which they are giving in the middle of the match via Prizes...)
2. Increases variance in a manner that I believe creates a net loss in skill: you need skill to compensate for the increased variance, but it means other skills (like deck building) have to settle for a lower common denominator.
3. His glossing over search effects in other games. Pokémon has abundant draw and search effects, compared to other TCGs, but deck search isn't unique to Pokémon. It often costs more or have other drawbacks to it, but it is there.

• I think the pacing is off in Pokémon, but when it comes to draw/search, not by much.
• Perhaps Tseus didn't mean it, but perpetual top decking doesn't seem like trading one form of skill for another... plus additional variance.
• I have contemplated game design where your hand is merely your immediately available, ready cards while your deck is - pardon the expression - your library.

Touching upon your idea, it is interesting and seems better than what we have. Probably the simplest solution is instead of Prizes being random we allow players to select their six Prizes. Instead of being possibly destroyed or saved because the wrong (right) card was Prized, we retain the skill of working around six cards being removed from your deck and adds in the skill of selecting which six cards to Prize. Honestly the only drawback to it is we have to ban Greedy Dice or accept a war between it and Here Comes Team Rocket usage. ​

 

[chella182]

In Magic, your sideboard is a set of 15 cards that you can exchange with cards in your deck in between games of a match. For a Pokémon example, let's say that my deck has a weak matchup to Mega Rayquaza. I could run Parallel City, but that's a card only effective in certain matchups, and if I don't face one of those decks, the space used for Parallel City is "wasted." If Pokémon had a sideboard mechanic, I could place Parallel City in my sideboard to make my game 2 and 3 matchup against Mega Rayquaza much better, while preserving the consistency of my deck during game 1.

Oh I see, thanks for the explanation. That does sound useful, the amount of times I've recently changed a little thing in my deck (like taking a 1-of such as Ranger out or something) and then in the next game I play I wish I had it! And it definitely would help against not prizing 1-of cards that are clutch in some match-ups.

 

[Chancewoot]

Wouldn't mine and several others presented here? XD

I quoted @Tseus because I found his arguments faulty. I mean, dude can totally love the Prize mechanic: I did at first too! Then I got to thinking about it, and realized

1. Only aligns with video games if we count after match rewards (which they are giving in the middle of the match via Prizes...)
2. Increases variance in a manner that I believe creates a net loss in skill: you need skill to compensate for the increased variance, but it means other skills (like deck building) have to settle for a lower common denominator.
3. His glossing over search effects in other games. Pokémon has abundant draw and search effects, compared to other TCGs, but deck search isn't unique to Pokémon. It often costs more or have other drawbacks to it, but it is there.

• I think the pacing is off in Pokémon, but when it comes to draw/search, not by much.
• Perhaps Tseus didn't mean it, but perpetual top decking doesn't seem like trading one form of skill for another... plus additional variance.
• I have contemplated game design where your hand is merely your immediately available, ready cards while your deck is - pardon the expression - your library.

Touching upon your idea, it is interesting and seems better than what we have. Probably the simplest solution is instead of Prizes being random we allow players to select their six Prizes. Instead of being possibly destroyed or saved because the wrong (right) card was Prized, we retain the skill of working around six cards being removed from your deck and adds in the skill of selecting which six cards to Prize. Honestly the only drawback to it is we have to ban Greedy Dice or accept a war between it and Here Comes Team Rocket usage. ​

Yeah, I like some others, but within the realm of how Pokemon is designed, I don't really like the idea of having a "hitpoint" component for the player. Not only is this system already used for a lot of card games, but rarely is it done very nicely. I feel like the prize card system is not only a cool way to balance the game (Natural Tempo/Changes of Tempo with N), but it also gives Pokemon a bit of uniqueness.

As much as I want to like being able to pick your prizes, it seems like it could be pretty abusable. Let say for Nightmarch's sake, imagine them never prizing Night marchers or DCE, sounds great right? This also shifts deck building from the question of "How much prizes can hurt you?" to "How consistent can you make your 54 card deck?" The reason why I made prizes a simple "Draw one" is because it keeps "Prize cards" in the game, reduces randomization, and allows all decks to play without variation of prizes. I also like the idea of Tokens in the game, and this would be a great way to implement them.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

The whole idea of prize cards shouldn't be a factor in how cards are design. If they are designing cards like Night March with the hopes that a few are prized, then they need to look back at the design of the game as a whole.

 

[Chancewoot]

The whole idea of prize cards shouldn't be a factor in how cards are design. If they are designing cards like Night March with the hopes that a few are prized, then they need to look back at the design of the game as a whole.

Prize cards, like any mechanic, should be factored into card design. Lets take a Basic Pokemon deck and a evolution Pokemon deck. If I have 1 of my Basic Pokemon prized, then the disadvantage is localized to just that one Pokemon. If I am playing an evolution deck (Think Zoroark where the basic is practically useless), if I prize a Basic or Stage 1 or Stage 2, then a line of that evolution is unusable in the game. This matters a lot when you consider deck choice, when I play a 2-2 line of Zoroark in my deck, I know that there is a decent possibility that I may prize a Zorua or Zoroark, and sometimes they will be my last few prizes. This means if a Zorua is prized, 1 of my Zoroarks are useless and vice versa. If I am playing Yveltal, and I prize a Yveltal BKT, not much changes, because it is an independent card, so it doesn't have much effect on how the rest of my deck regarding dead cards.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

Prize cards, like any mechanic, should be factored into card design. Lets take a Basic Pokemon deck and a evolution Pokemon deck. If I have 1 of my Basic Pokemon prized, then the disadvantage is localized to just that one Pokemon. If I am playing an evolution deck (Think Zoroark where the basic is practically useless), if I prize a Basic or Stage 1 or Stage 2, then a line of that evolution is unusable in the game. This matters a lot when you consider deck choice, when I play a 2-2 line of Zoroark in my deck, I know that there is a decent possibility that I may prize a Zorua or Zoroark, and sometimes they will be my last few prizes. This means if a Zorua is prized, 1 of my Zoroarks are useless and vice versa. If I am playing Yveltal, and I prize a Yveltal BKT, not much changes, because it is an independent card, so it doesn't have much effect on how the rest of my deck regarding dead cards.

That isn't what I was talking about. In other card games, mechanics dont really factor into a loss like Prize Cards do. The Naruto TCG has something like this where you lose cards from the top of your deck each attack you take that you can't get back and even there its the same issue but at least you have access to your whole deck and choose when to let attacks pass. In Pokemon, you lose those resources and never know until you need to see them and dont and at times, you lose simply because you prized the wrong parts and simply running more of the card doesn't help since you can prize all 4 of them.

On the recent stream of Pokemon TCG, a player prized 3 Rough Seas. Luckily he didn't need them but it still remains a factor you cant control that can make or break a game. If there were cards that could move things around in the prize pool, then great but they dont exist right now.

 

[Otaku]

@Chancewoot @crystal_pidgeot

I think you might be confusing each other. At the risk of making things worse, I'm going to try to clarify.

1. The Prize card mechanic should be considered when designing cards...
2. ...but it should rarely if ever be used to balance something out.

Yeah, I like some others, but within the realm of how Pokemon is designed, I don't really like the idea of having a "hitpoint" component for the player.

You kind of missed a few other options though:

• Instead of placing six Prize cards at the beginning of the game, when a Pokémon is KO'd is highest Stage of Evolution is placed in the Prize zone (now the KO'd Zone) to keep track.
  
• Allowing players to pick what goes into their Prize cards at the beginning of the match.
• I also agreed with your notion of creating a new class of card known as the "Prize Card"
• Replacing Prize cards with Prize Tokens
• I'll add another option now; inverting the Prize mechanic so that when you score a KO, your opponent takes a Prize card. Might need to rename Prize cards, but this acts a bit like the shield mechanic in Kaijudo/Duel Masters, but probably better. Getting an extra card as you begin to lose adds a mild bit of balance to the game.
• Any others I missed?

 

[myska707]

Tournaments are best of 3 now. The only real change I can think of is they add 5 minutes to the game clock to compensate for side decks. Why should decks have unearned advantage? Why should we accept this? The point of a competitive game is to avoid players losing to something they can't really control. The best thing about side decks is it also weeds out decks that shouldn't exist, like night march and related deck because we can place things like Karen in the side deck. Whats better is we can run more consistent decks.

I play other card games where actually building a deck takes skill. Because side decks exist and there are more cards to worry about, you simply can't build something like Night March and expect to do well for more than like one tournament, especially if it won a big tournament. In Pokemon, you're allowed to get away with anything you want and I think thats something that should change.

Thank you for that info. I was not aware that tournaments had best out of 3. That completely negates my reasoning for not wanting sideboards. With that information, I am 100% in support of sideboards.

 

[Chancewoot]

@Chancewoot @crystal_pidgeot

I think you might be confusing each other. At the risk of making things worse, I'm going to try to clarify.

1. The Prize card mechanic should be considered when designing cards...
2. ...but it should rarely if ever be used to balance something out.

You kind of missed a few other options though:

• Instead of placing six Prize cards at the beginning of the game, when a Pokémon is KO'd is highest Stage of Evolution is placed in the Prize zone (now the KO'd Zone) to keep track.
  
• Allowing players to pick what goes into their Prize cards at the beginning of the match.
• I also agreed with your notion of creating a new class of card known as the "Prize Card"
• Replacing Prize cards with Prize Tokens
• I'll add another option now; inverting the Prize mechanic so that when you score a KO, your opponent takes a Prize card. Might need to rename Prize cards, but this acts a bit like the shield mechanic in Kaijudo/Duel Masters, but probably better. Getting an extra card as you begin to lose adds a mild bit of balance to the game.
• Any others I missed?

1st option: I generally like, however it does kinda screw with the whole idea of having "recycle-able" resources. For a lot of decks having cards like Super Rod is a big deal, and I know how EXs/GXs would work, but it would be a bit awkward.
2nd option: Not a huge fan of, seems like it would shift deck building a whole lot. Making decks ~54 "always good" cards + ~6 techs that you switch out depending on the match up. However, it does seem like it could give Pokemon a bit more of a skill cap in deciding what to prize for what matchups.
3rd option: I dig.
4th option: I dig, give or take the same as option 3. In a way it would prevent snowballing wins, but it would take away some thinking in deciding what to take out. As far as the easiest option, I definitely think this one is the best.
5th option: I don't really like, in a way it benefits losing in the game, and would give your opponent more possibilities at luck saccing. It would keep the game more balanced between two differently skilled players, but against evenly matched players it would make the game really lucky.

Edit: Removed wrong quote

 

[Otaku]

Another thing for us all to remember is that while making a change to the way the game works can be painful and confusing at first, like correcting any problem it"s usually "The sooner the better." Consider the positive changes that have happened and how much harder they would be had the designers delayed, especially with the addition of the Expanded Format. Note: Not knocking the Expanded Format as I like it quite a bit! Just pointing out that there are some changes I think should have been made years ago, but now with Expanded are going to be more awkward because the pre-change sets are going to last in the sphere of Organized Play for a longer period.

Now... @Chancewoot 's last post got me to thinking, but I am afraid too many ideas will be lost in the clutter if I address it all at once. So I'm just going to address two things from it. I'm reserving the right to come back to it later if it works out for the thread.

• Just realized with my "Pick your Prizes" option, I did not specify whether or not you know the specific location of your selections. I was thinking you'd pick six Prize cards, then shuffle them together and place them face down. So the change between now and this suggested rule change aren't quite as dramatic. That being said, now I am wondering if you should pick and place them or if they should be face up. Either could actually increase the skill required for the game. Obviously memorization is useful in real life, and so is knowing how to not telegraph your plans in a competition. This would require further errata of cards (or else bans/cards that exist but are just totally pointless), but see what I just said about such things.
• If players are allowed to both know and select their Prizes... that might be how Pokémon ought to do a Side Board. Remember, you're still taking a KO to access these cards, so you're hopefully earning them. My major concern about a Side Board in Pokémon is that there are too many TecH counters that would ruin major strategies; not just the ones I think are "broken" but seems like quite a few decks could get a silver bullet counter. The thing is, if you've got to take a KO to get that started, might be appropriate.

 

[Problem2]

So for this mechanic to work, you would have a 60 card main deck and say... a 12 card sideboard or "PC Box"? Pick 6 cards from your PC Box, shuffle them and then place them face down as your prizes. Honestly sounds like a really fun side event. And if you use the rule where you gain a prize for being KO'd, have an errata for cards that count your prizes.

Oh, and ban greedy dice.

EDIT: Actually if drawing a prize for being knocked out is followed, Teammates would also likely be banned, at least from the PC Box.