Pokemon Are Types Made Up?

[Blob55]

As of 6th gen, a lot of Pokémon got turned into Fairy type and if you transfer a Snubbull to a gen 6 game from a gen 5 game, one of its weaknesses gets reversed and it also gets a different immunity.

This is strange, because you would think a Snubbull from Johto (Transferred to Unova, then to Kalos) would still be weak to Fighting types! As you'd think Fairy types would only exist Kalos and its connection regions, due to growing up in a different environment where there's more competition, and you can see this, by looking at how many Pokémon there are available in Kalos.

Unless of course types and weaknesses are just completely made up for the Trainers sake, to make it easier to distinguish each kind of Pokémon. In the Animé, it's mentioned that Pokémon like to fight, so they could just be going along with it.

Though, saying that, there's clearly a difference between Rock, Electric and Fire types, so maybe some are made up, such as Fairy, while others are real, like Ice.

Possibly real:
Normal (I guess there's no other way of putting it)
Poison (Only applies to Pokémon like Muk, which physically looks poisonous or venomous)
Rock
Bug
Ghost (Semi-real type, as it's more of a description or a species)
Steel
Fire
Water (Only applies to Pokémon which live in water and Pokémon with watery bodies, like Tentacool)
Grass
Electric
Ice (Only applies to Pokémon with ice on them or made from ice, like Glalie).


Dragon, Fairy, Dark and Psychic types could all be described as mythical, but there would be too many Pokémon in one group/type.

Ground, Fighting and Flying types usually look similar to Normal types, but specialize in more specific things. Once again, it would be far too many Pokémon listed as one type.

What do you guys think?

 

[Auride]

Types are definitely real and verifiable. Weaknesses and Resistances, doubling or halving damage respectively, are pretty obviously not made up.

That said, changes like turning Pokemon into entirely different types doesn't really have a rational explanation other than retroactive continuity (when canonical information is "changed' after the original media which created it). The most recent story of things, which is that Snubbull takes neutral damage from ghost type attacks and resists fighting, is all we can call "true". It's kinda dumb, but that's how it is.

If you want to make up your own head-canon for how this all works, that's fine, but it's only in your head.

 

[Keeper of Night]

In X and Y, the assistants I believe clearly state that the Fairy type is a new type classification.

From a real-world perspective, we can look at it this way rather reasonably:
The Fairy type has always existed. However, given their appearances and powers, were easily classified under different types instead.
Mawile has mutated fangs supposedly comprised of steel. Easy enough to classify as a Steel type.
Clefairy (and it's line) are rare Pokemon, not often observed. Classified as normal types for their signature move of Metronome. However, they do at times exhibit strange behavior when observed, along with other powers. This was assumed because they had some relevance with outerspace, and as such were unique... But one line isn't enough to classify a whole type.
Gardevoir has Psychic powers. Like Mawile, classification to Psychic was too easy.
Granbull is an extremely physical pokemon, leaving it with few external powers to observe. Becoming a normal type was the obvious choice.
Jigglypuff had a correct classification of normal type, even if it is less obvious than Steel or Psychic, it (in a way) represents sound.
Whimsicott... Is a plant. I doubt they even considered it could be something besides Grass, let alone a type yet discovered.

Now, following the above, when new Pokemon were discovered in Kalos, obviously testing was done to classify them under their appropriate types and categories. So what happened when they discovered Pokemon that didn't fit any existing categories? They had to come up with a new classification for them, obviously. And then they went back to previous Pokemon out of curiosity. This type couldn't have come out of nowhere! It must have existed before. And then boom! Clefairy records from years past. Clefairy soon joined the ranks of Fairy types. A few years later, other Pokemon tested, other records reviewed, and you have the brand-new classification of the Fairy type.
As far as weaknesses and resistances go... They were simply wrong. Ghosts have always affected Granbull... But you aren't going to use an ineffective move on purpose, so there was no way of realizing the biggest flaw. Fighting resistance, Steel/Poison effectiveness can all be passed as other things. "Toxins in lab expired, need new vial." "Subject showed strange reaction to metal objects, most likely due to a nearby Magneton." "Fighting types proved ineffective in combat against subject. Extra training required."
Of course, this does not translate well into the games, but that's not something that can be fixed.

tl;dr
The classification of Fairy types coming late is a human error.

 

[professorlight]

Basically everything keeper said.

And as of efectiveness and immunity, don't forget psychological conditioning. Pokemon are, even in their wild state, ovbiously aware of types and how they work, so it's possible that super effectiveness and immunity, in many cases, can manifest as a placebo effect, and change once the pokemon is aware of different conditions.

According to this, if you were to grab, pre-XY, a snubbull A from kalos and a snubbull B from johto and use shadow ball and dragonbreath in both, only one (A or B) would be immune to each move. If you were to convince one snubbull of him being normal/fairy type, the snubbull would eventually acclimate to his new typing condition.

And I would still beat it with a stick because why the hell is snubbull fairy type? that was just the dumbest change.

 

[Auride]

According to this, if you were to grab, pre-XY, a snubbull A from kalos and a snubbull B from johto and use shadow ball and dragonbreath in both, only one (A or B) would be immune to each move. If you were to convince one snubbull of him being normal/fairy type, the snubbull would eventually acclimate to his new typing condition.

I somehow doubt that complete immunity to a type could be just placebo...

 

[Keeper of Night]

I have to doubt that all wild Pokemon are aware of type effectiveness. They are something classified by humans. And while a good amount of Pokemon are smart enough (or are way past being smart enough) to figure "types" out, most are essentially animals. They simply fight to survive.
That is why it takes a two-person team of Pokemon and Trainer to win battles.

 

[Mr.Muffin]

In real life we have had plenty of animals that we put under the wrong typing. Like the Red Panda which is in the only animal in the Ailurus Genus. It was mistaken for years and years as being in the Racoon and Bear family, but after a while scientists learned it was actually nothing like them. Scientists always learn more and more about where they live. I think this is just the natural progression of science, or maybe this is a fictional universe that had a recon that I am trying to make sense of.

Also Animals naturally learn there abilities in real life kind of how pokemon do. Newts do know that they are poisonous. They just know people die when they touch them too much. I think it would be a natural instinct pokemon have. All animals only care about reproducing and surviving.

 

[Keeper of Night]

Also Animals naturally learn there abilities in real life kind of how pokemon do. Newts do know that they are poisonous. They just know people die when they touch them too much. I think it would be a natural instinct pokemon have. All animals only care about reproducing and surviving.

I think that this would refer more to the moves and abilities each Pokemon has, rather than their types. As you stated, types are discovered through scientific studies.

As such, to address the topic, yes. Pokemon types are, in fact, made up. By scientists, professors, and researchers in the Pokemon universe.

 

[Blob55]

In real life we have had plenty of animals that we put under the wrong typing. Like the Red Panda which is in the only animal in the Ailurus Genus. It was mistaken for years and years as being in the Racoon and Bear family, but after a while scientists learned it was actually nothing like them. Scientists always learn more and more about where they live. I think this is just the natural progression of science, or maybe this is a fictional universe that had a recon that I am trying to make sense of.

Also Animals naturally learn there abilities in real life kind of how pokemon do. Newts do know that they are poisonous. They just know people die when they touch them too much. I think it would be a natural instinct pokemon have. All animals only care about reproducing and surviving.

Newts are poisonous?!

Anyway, the Species thing is more akin to calling Rattata a Rat Pokémon in earlier generations. It has fur on its tail and Raticate is just an oversized mouse, but the tail fur went due to coincidence.
I can't explain Sandshrew, though.

---

And I would still beat it with a stick because why the hell is snubbull fairy type? that was just the dumbest change.

It's in the Fairy egg group. Also, the only non-Fairy Pokémon which are just in the Fairy Egg group, are the Chansey line and Plusle and Minun.
Though, I don't get how Altaria can Mega Evolve into a Fairy type, when it's not even a part of that Egg group.

Next thing we know, there's going to be an Amorphous type...

 

[Mr.Muffin]

In real life we have had plenty of animals that we put under the wrong typing. Like the Red Panda which is in the only animal in the Ailurus Genus. It was mistaken for years and years as being in the Racoon and Bear family, but after a while scientists learned it was actually nothing like them. Scientists always learn more and more about where they live. I think this is just the natural progression of science, or maybe this is a fictional universe that had a recon that I am trying to make sense of.

Also Animals naturally learn there abilities in real life kind of how pokemon do. Newts do know that they are poisonous. They just know people die when they touch them too much. I think it would be a natural instinct pokemon have. All animals only care about reproducing and surviving.

Newts are poisonous?!

Newts are extremely poisonous. There have been cases where cute little newts have swam into coffee pots and killed a bunch of people. It excretes this toxin that is deadly to most animals. They evolves this way to kill there predators garter snakes. Garter Snakes have actually gained a higher resistance to the toxin each generation.

I think that Game Freak should make a Newt pokemon, but I digress.

 

[professorlight]

According to this, if you were to grab, pre-XY, a snubbull A from kalos and a snubbull B from johto and use shadow ball and dragonbreath in both, only one (A or B) would be immune to each move. If you were to convince one snubbull of him being normal/fairy type, the snubbull would eventually acclimate to his new typing condition.

I somehow doubt that complete immunity to a type could be just placebo...

it's possible that super effectiveness and immunity, in many cases, can manifest as a placebo effect

Of course physics-based immunity can't be mistaken; a ground type doesn't conduct more electricity because it thinks it has to. But it is entirely possible that a normal type could be "hurt" by an attack that didn't touch it. The mind is a powerful thing.

I have to doubt that all wild Pokemon are aware of type effectiveness. They are something classified by humans. And while a good amount of Pokemon are smart enough (or are way past being smart enough) to figure "types" out, most are essentially animals. They simply fight to survive.
That is why it takes a two-person team of Pokemon and Trainer to win battles.

Does the darkened side of the moon disappear when you aren't looking at it? everything exists before we are aware of its presence, discovering something only brings it to our attention, and classification only makes it easier to understand. The fairy type, world-wise, doesn't magically appear just because it was discovered in kalos, it was always there, but as you said, no one outside of kalos had any reason to search for it.

Pokemon are not animals, nor humans, they are somewhere in between, intelligence-wise; they may not have a developed language, or our ability to adapt the environment, but they do have feelings, the capacity to express such feelings, and they do have the ability to learn new things; even if a pokemon doesn't have the full classification of type interactions in mind, it knows, be it from experience or instinct, that hitting the flaming lizard with a bucketful of water will be safer than using a combustible vine.

Reducing the pokemon to animals is like reducing dogs to ants. Do two dogs bark simultaneously because their dog queen commands or do they do it because they're talking? does a dog want to play fetch because it's biologically conditioned to mindlessly hunt and chase things, or does it do it because it likes playing with its master?
Sure, up to a point, a dog plays fetch because it's capable of playing fetch; you can't sit a dog down to a match of chess, same as you couldn't probably grab a rattata and make it write an essay, but attributing a primarily biological motivation to their actions, be it dog or pokemon, is simplifying matters too much.

And I would still beat it with a stick because why the hell is snubbull fairy type? that was just the dumbest change.

It's in the Fairy egg group. Also, the only non-Fairy Pokémon which are just in the Fairy Egg group, are the Chansey line and Plusle and Minun.
Though, I don't get how Altaria can Mega Evolve into a Fairy type, when it's not even a part of that Egg group.

Next thing we know, there's going to be an Amorphous type...

You're still not explaining anything; the fairy egg group also has pikachu, hoppip, shroomish, skitty, plusle, minun, roselia, castform, snorunt, pachirisu and cherubi, and none of them became fairy type; the fairy egg group thing seemed to be just "cute, petite pokemon", whcih was snubbull's entire schtick, in an ironic inversion, back when it cam out.
The opposite happened with ralts; it became fairy type, but it is still in amorphous for some reason, despite fitting in humanshape/fairy, where it has many more moves than the ghost type crap it can get in amorphous. But, alas, ralts is not "cute".

Egg groups are barely before the phases of the moon in determining a pokemon's type.

 

[Keeper of Night]

I have to doubt that all wild Pokemon are aware of type effectiveness. They are something classified by humans. And while a good amount of Pokemon are smart enough (or are way past being smart enough) to figure "types" out, most are essentially animals. They simply fight to survive.
That is why it takes a two-person team of Pokemon and Trainer to win battles.

Does the darkened side of the moon disappear when you aren't looking at it? everything exists before we are aware of its presence, discovering something only brings it to our attention, and classification only makes it easier to understand. The fairy type, world-wise, doesn't magically appear just because it was discovered in kalos, it was always there, but as you said, no one outside of kalos had any reason to search for it.

Pokemon are not animals, nor humans, they are somewhere in between, intelligence-wise; they may not have a developed language, or our ability to adapt the environment, but they do have feelings, the capacity to express such feelings, and they do have the ability to learn new things; even if a pokemon doesn't have the full classification of type interactions in mind, it knows, be it from experience or instinct, that hitting the flaming lizard with a bucketful of water will be safer than using a combustible vine.

Reducing the pokemon to animals is like reducing dogs to ants. Do two dogs bark simultaneously because their dog queen commands or do they do it because they're talking? does a dog want to play fetch because it's biologically conditioned to mindlessly hunt and chase things, or does it do it because it likes playing with its master?
Sure, up to a point, a dog plays fetch because it's capable of playing fetch; you can't sit a dog down to a match of chess, same as you couldn't probably grab a rattata and make it write an essay, but attributing a primarily biological motivation to their actions, be it dog or pokemon, is simplifying matters too much.

As I said, a good number of Pokemon probably have good understanding of the characteristics that comprise different Pokemon and therefor what is most effective in each scenario. And I am not attempting to simplify things to the point of "Houndour is simply a dog." However, most Pokemon are, in fact, animals. They have a heightened sense of their surroundings, and a better sense of practicality and better judgment than a normal animal. However, they continue to fill the same roles (pets, farm animals, transportation, even food) that any animal would.

Not all dogs have the instinct to chase after other animals (or, in your example a stick flying through the air). Not all Pokemon have the instinct to fight.
Pawniard are born hunters. That's what they know to do. Find, stab, eat. But Sentret rely on their mothers for protection and teachings. Not all Pokemon are equal-minded either.

 

[professorlight]

they continue to fill the same roles (pets, farm animals, transportation, even food) that any animal would.

That's because you're comparing them to humans. Humans define pokemon, not the other way around. Pokemon are pets in a human world; but what are pokemon on their own, on the wild? how do they handle themselves? do they just hunt, as you said with pawniard? or just look for other's protection, as sentret? sentret can fight too. Can a sentret fight back? or is it unable to because its role is just food? It's natural to want to frame things in a familiar system; humans are humans, animals are animals, humans are humans, but there are no animals, so we grab the pokemon and toss them in that category (which is, incidentally, why the fairy type was undiscovered for so long; just grab snubbull and put it in normal) but pokemon are not animals, but they're not humans either; they're pokemon.

Alakazam is noticeably smarter than humans; why does it still keep saying "aaaalakazam!" instead of forming an overmind and dominating humans, 1984 style? or a better example, mewtwo. Mewtwo was, basically, raised as a human; not developmentally speaking, of course, but it was raised and taught by humans, a human thinking pattern and worldview; only after meeting mew it realized that it was not a human, but not a pokemon either, that maybe it was closer to humans than mew, but it was still not human, and that it was okay.

That's not a human point of view; it is, however, a pokemon's point of view.

There have been a lot of discussions about why pokemon don't just squish us puny humans, and why is that? maybe it's because the problem is the question itself? because we're attributing a human conscience and worldview to a creature that has a completely alien (to us) understanding of the world? Humans, in the pokemon world, dominate pokemon. Some catch them and are friends, even equals, some use them in tasks the pokemon are biologically apt to perform (battles, farming, power sources, etc.) while some treat them badly. Is that ethical? are there degrees? is it better to leave them in the wild? is it better for humans to live like pokemon? Is it...

Um. Where was I? I... sort of trailed off somewhere there, right?

Erm... yes. Bottomline, Pokemon are not animals or humans, they're pokemon.

 

[Blob55]

You're still not explaining anything; the fairy egg group also has pikachu, hoppip, shroomish, skitty, plusle, minun, roselia, castform, snorunt, pachirisu and cherubi, and none of them became fairy type; the fairy egg group thing seemed to be just "cute, petite pokemon", whcih was snubbull's entire schtick, in an ironic inversion, back when it cam out.
The opposite happened with ralts; it became fairy type, but it is still in amorphous for some reason, despite fitting in humanshape/fairy, where it has many more moves than the ghost type crap it can get in amorphous. But, alas, ralts is not "cute".

Egg groups are barely before the phases of the moon in determining a pokemon's type.

OK, but I specifically said Pokémon which are ONLY in the Fairy Egg group. I never said all Pokémon in it. BTW, a lot of those Pokémon already have two types. Oh and I already mentioned Plusle and Minun.

Also, what's with all this moon stuff?

---

Alakazam is noticeably smarter than humans; why does it still keep saying "aaaalakazam!" instead of forming an overmind and dominating humans, 1984 style? or a better example, mewtwo. Mewtwo was, basically, raised as a human; not developmentally speaking, of course, but it was raised and taught by humans, a human thinking pattern and worldview; only after meeting mew it realized that it was not a human, but not a pokemon either, that maybe it was closer to humans than mew, but it was still not human, and that it was okay.

Because IQs may be a different thing in Pokémon?
In the Pokémon world, not all of the units we use could have the exact same measurements as we have. IQ could just mean how intelligent they are in battle. That seems to be what it means in the Mystery Dungeon series, as a Pokémon with a higher IQ has better senses or even be a better bargainer when in Dungeons.

I know it's mentioned he's smarter than the maximum number of IQ points he can get in PMD, but that's probably just bragging.

---

Anyway, maybe Pokémon are smart enough to know that they could destroy anyone they wanted, but what's more important is finding a good companion. After all, it's lonely at the top.

 

[Keeper of Night]

they continue to fill the same roles (pets, farm animals, transportation, even food) that any animal would.

That's because you're comparing them to humans. Humans define pokemon, not the other way around. Pokemon are pets in a human world; but what are pokemon on their own, on the wild? how do they handle themselves? do they just hunt, as you said with pawniard? or just look for other's protection, as sentret? sentret can fight too. Can a sentret fight back? or is it unable to because its role is just food? It's natural to want to frame things in a familiar system; humans are humans, animals are animals, humans are humans, but there are no animals, so we grab the pokemon and toss them in that category (which is, incidentally, why the fairy type was undiscovered for so long; just grab snubbull and put it in normal) but pokemon are not animals, but they're not humans either; they're pokemon.

Actually, I'm comparing them to animals. You're right, humans define what is considered a Pokémon. They also define their types. It's a man-made way to explain certain Pokémon being strong against others, resistant to certain elements, ect. These types do not exist in the untouched, wild Pokémon's mind. They simply know what they are born knowing or taught. Yes, Sentret can fight. But it obviously isn't as strong as a born predator such as Pawniard, just as a baby snake is far more dangerous than a kitten.
Exactly my point, Pokémon are their own category of being. That does not mean they are all, however, equal minded, as I've stated. Growlithe is a dog, but one could see Ralts as essentially an infant. Growlithe are known to be loyal to their trainers, just like a good dog to their owner. But some Pokémon think independently, using their own judgment rather than depending on their master's help.

Alakazam is noticeably smarter than humans; why does it still keep saying "aaaalakazam!" instead of forming an overmind and dominating humans, 1984 style? or a better example, mewtwo. Mewtwo was, basically, raised as a human; not developmentally speaking, of course, but it was raised and taught by humans, a human thinking pattern and worldview; only after meeting mew it realized that it was not a human, but not a pokemon either, that maybe it was closer to humans than mew, but it was still not human, and that it was okay.

The first ever Kadabra was a human that changed into one. From it, the species was born. I don't think the human had any hard feelings against other humans, and never felt the need to attack them. Maybe this carried down the species, I can't say for sure. Also, if we can take its in-game method of evolution to mean anything, it requires human interaction to evolve. This actually makes sense in a way, since it allows them to observe us and read our thoughts, gathering more and more information. When finally traded, it evolves! Through currently unknown reasons. Maybe it requires the thoughts of a second human? A different emotional state?
Mewtwo was created in a lab by humans. It escaped its prison and sought revenge. Humans created its thoughts, its natural (as natural as you can get for a living science experiment) that the human thoughts given to him made him think differently.

There have been a lot of discussions about why pokemon don't just squish us puny humans, and why is that? maybe it's because the problem is the question itself? because we're attributing a human conscience and worldview to a creature that has a completely alien (to us) understanding of the world? Humans, in the pokemon world, dominate pokemon. Some catch them and are friends, even equals, some use them in tasks the pokemon are biologically apt to perform (battles, farming, power sources, etc.) while some treat them badly. Is that ethical? are there degrees? is it better to leave them in the wild? is it better for humans to live like pokemon? Is it...

Quite simply, Pokémon cannot control humans. Maybe there was once fear of such a thing, and then out of that fear came the PokeBall. It gives humans the power to put an otherwise higher being into something as simple as a capsule, thus giving the illusion of control.
It is my theory that, after the big war mentioned in XY, people were scared of what Pokemon could really do. They were afraid. Then, years into development, a team of researchers discovered the same energy code all Pokémon share, and experimented with it from there. After that, it was necessary to have a way to contain that energy signature. And boom! Humans control Pokémon at the push of a button.

Erm... yes. Bottomline, Pokemon are not animals or humans, they're pokemon.

And I agree. 100%
My point is that, some Pokémon have a brain that functions closer to humans, while others are closer to animals. As I stated before;

They have a heightened sense of their surroundings, and a better sense of practicality and better judgment than a normal animal.

And that much is certain. But the higher intelligence Pokemon (mainly Psychic types) are smart enough to know to keep to themselves. They have no reason to fight with humans unless they are directly threatened.
Now, you run into a Pokémon such as Hydreigon or Gigalith rampaging, yeah, you're probably in a jam. But seriously, you can break out your own Pokémon, or pull out a strong PokeBall (imagine if Master Ball could be mass-produced...) and problem solved!

Edit: Let's try not to go off-topic too much. We're here to discuss types, not brain functions. >.<

 

[Chaos Jackal]

Types aren't "made up". While a wild Pokemon might or might not know its resistances and weaknesses perfectly, types are simply how a Pokemon's body structure affects it and protects it. Saying that types are "made up" because of old Pokemon changing types doesn't make sense, because, after all, it is a game. When a game evolves, you can't expect everything to follow suit and old mechanics to apply to older characters. Types are something that dominates the Pokemon world. They may or may not change each Gen, but every change that is made is definite and is considered applicable since the dawn of Pokemon time.

 

[Keeper of Night]

They may or may not change each Gen, but every change that is made is definite and is considered applicable since the dawn of Pokemon time.

This is not entirely accurate, as the Fairy type is specifically considered a new classification.

Yes, types in general are how Pokemon are able to control their element, or explain what they are. However, a wild Pokemon wouldn't even know what a "type" is. That is proven by XY and the Fairy type, as types are shown to be scientifically proven and documented by people.

 

[Blob55]

Types aren't "made up". While a wild Pokemon might or might not know its resistances and weaknesses perfectly, types are simply how a Pokemon's body structure affects it and protects it. Saying that types are "made up" because of old Pokemon changing types doesn't make sense, because, after all, it is a game. When a game evolves, you can't expect everything to follow suit and old mechanics to apply to older characters. Types are something that dominates the Pokemon world. They may or may not change each Gen, but every change that is made is definite and is considered applicable since the dawn of Pokemon time.

But I still think only Pokémon from Kalos and Mega Evolutions should have Fairy typing.

 

[FoxFire]

To paraphrase a certain TV show's theme song ... Repeat to yourself 'it's just a game, I should really just relax'.

 

[Blob55]

To paraphrase a certain TV show's theme song ... Repeat to yourself 'it's just a game, I should really just relax'.

Yeah, but it's also Animé and Manga. How will they even explain it?