I'm all for it to be Stage 1, CC with "If the Defending Pokemon is a basic it is automatically Knocked Out. You can only take 1 prize with this attack" to balance out the two free prizes with EXs. Give it 120 HP so it isn't Bouffalant Revenge Killed, but Reshiram, Zekrom, Mewtwo EX all one-shot it without Pluspower so it still gives them a fighting chance.
Bring back take out
- Thread starter AmishEskimoNinja
- Start date
Haha yeah, it's sad to see what this game has come to when there's more OP basics than you can fit on a card. But, they could probably fit it if it's the only attack. As new ones come out, they could errata it. It's too complicated for new players so it won't happen, but if they really wanted to create a balanced format, that's how they would do it.minimidget94 said:
Or they could say "If the Defending Pokemon is a Basic and has 130 HP or more then it is Knocked Out". That kinda lumps all the overpowered basics into one category.
Would you all really want this? Such direct hard counters is really bad for the game. Narrow cards like this are not build-around-me cards as you will lose to other decks, but you need enough of them to be able to beat the cards you want to hard counter. Good hard counters should be indirectly beating the opponent. Gothitelle and Gardevoir SW are good examples of this. Even if your opponent is taking more prizes than you, you're still actually beating them. Once the gothitelle and reuniclus come out, you've won the game basically regardless of your opponent's prize count. These types of cards make a fun subgame within the game. Take Out returning would make an unfun "well I guess I lose" situation when your opponent sets up a few dudes. You may lose just as much to take out as to gothitelle, but at least gothitelle let's you think you are playing a game. Take Out would make the game less fun and less skill based. "Attack each turn" isn't very skillful... that's why I dislike decks like ZPTS and Reshiram as well. Sometimes you want to do other things... but in a take-out based deck, you either attack with your kill-basic attack or attack with your other attack... not very skillful.
Just my two cents... I'm surprised in how many people I am disagreeing with... I thought there would be more machamp haters D:
Just my two cents... I'm surprised in how many people I am disagreeing with... I thought there would be more machamp haters D:
It would be a direct counter, but if it was balanced, then it wouldn't be that bad for the game.
It would also make more ZPST player use Yanmega
And for the record, ZPST is not an easy deck to play. It isn't as straight forward as you might think, because game changing decisions often have to be made early game, so a ZPST player has to really know the deck and matchup well to do well.
And for the record, ZPST is not an easy deck to play. It isn't as straight forward as you might think, because game changing decisions often have to be made early game, so a ZPST player has to really know the deck and matchup well to do well.
Celebi23 said:
venasour x said:
I've never had a problem with Tornadus, Thundurus, or Bouffalant.
@bigbija
For the record, if you ever come up with a way to beat Zekrom nine times out of ten, I would love to hear it.
Thats why the 130 HP limit. It pretty much says "kill Reshiram, Zekrom, and EXs". But we are not going to get Take Out back anyway. So we will never know if it breaks the game or not.
Shouldn't reprints over the past few sets (DCE, Catcher, Archeops(?)) show it's literally a case of never say never now? The first part of my post here is speculation -- I feel I only had a really good grasp on the metagame during ADV and while it feels like yesterday, it's a good 5 or so years now. Anyways.. I think bringing back Take Out on a Stage 2 for more than a single Energy wouldn't even be that useful. Catcher and Archeops could pose sufficient problems to get it going. Whether costing a single or multiple Energy matters to its impact I've no idea.venasour x said:
I do want to point out a bit more confidently, though, that easy KOs on an EX, and thus two easy prize cards, isn't unprecedented. I'm speaking as a collector here, but so many ADV-era cards were able to do MORE damage or inflict additional damage if they were attacking an ex. I think today's EX is a two prize-card loss to be 'fair' given how powerful they are, but the original exes weren't always total powerhouses. I always took it that playing an ex at that time would've be a sort of risk you'd take when you were in a pinch or ahead in prizes anyways, rather than a surefire opportunity to do major damage and then your opponent would get an extra prize to make up for it. I would think it perfectly normal, in fact, if a EX card came out today (probably an S2) with a Take Out attack targeting other EXs.
Normally I'm opposed to hard counters too. But I'm even more opposed to big, OP basics that are more powerful and bulky than average stage 2's. They are just so autopilot (and usually donk capable) that it's removed a large amount of skill from the game. While bringing back something similar to Take Out wouldn't add any skill to the game, it would discourage a lot of people from playing these cards. A lot of people wouldn't want to play a hard counter either since it screws with your other matchups, so it makes a good amount of people go to completely different decks. I thought Reuniclus + Trainer Lock would do this, but apparently it wasn't enough.Zero said:
To add another dimension to this, if my opponent is lucky enough to get out an Archeops, there is a chance I won't even be able to play my Stage 1-2. Which makes it that much harder to run a traditional stage 2 deck. I mean, remember last format where everyone was afraid to run an all basic deck because of the risk of Mewtwo and Machamp? Now its gone full swing the other direction.
I don't think Arecheops is consistent enough to be able to survive. Decks have become accustomed to benching 2 of the basics they want to evolve the next turn. Archeops has a lot of trouble getting 1 Archen out; 2 is horrible. Every deck is capable of just Catchering 1 Archen for the OHKO (Donphan needs 2 PlusPower, but other than that there's nothing since Yanmega can Linear Attack for weakness and Gothitelle can just lock the fossil in the first place.) It also has to deal with Zekrom, who Archeops does nothing to disrupt. It's certainly a fun deck though; I love seeing the look on my opponent's face when I go first and play his fossil trainer T1.
Machamp and Mewtwo were much more consistent. Mewtwo was an easy tech that supported itself once it was out, and Machamp was very fast and very big for SP to take down multiple copies before losing unless it had Toxicroak.
Also, a big basic counter wouldn't fix Archeops if it became a problem. Because you'd need to get it out first.
Machamp and Mewtwo were much more consistent. Mewtwo was an easy tech that supported itself once it was out, and Machamp was very fast and very big for SP to take down multiple copies before losing unless it had Toxicroak.
Also, a big basic counter wouldn't fix Archeops if it became a problem. Because you'd need to get it out first.
Reshiram and Zekrom are imo perfectly balanced due to Zoroark. Its a stage 1 that with a DCE brings a full health dragon to 10 HP, and since they will often have damage on them (be from it Bolt Strike or Afterburner) it will usually OHKO. This makes Zoroark a very good, cheap, techable counter to them that does not destroy their viability, which is far superior to any Take Out, which would just ruin the metagame. As for Tornadus, its not really a threat. Against anything other than Donphan it either trades KOs or loses the prize exchange outright.
You're forgetting Evolite will be in the format less than 2 weeks from now. Now Zekrom can avoid the KO by 10HP and Reshiram needs 3 Afterburner counters, provided they can get Evolite early, which is somewhat hard. Zoroark is still a viable counter, but it's not as strong as Take Out would be, and Take Out would handle Tornadus and Thunderus as well.
Well yes, but there is PlusPower and Special Darks to help Zoroark. Overall, Zoroark provides a good but not perfect counter to the dragons, making them counterable but viable, which is perfect imo, a far better balance than take Out would create. Tornadus and Thundurus just aren't that big a deal that we need a card to counter them anyway.
I don't think "Take Out 2" would be great for 2 reasons. First, it makes EX pokemon pretty much unplayable, since they provide too much risk to the people playing them. Remember how hardly any Legends got played when Machamp was out? I think a similar story will happen again if an attack which can knock out any EX pokemon with a single hit (be it Mewtwo or any other) was printed.
The other is that there are already pokemon that can be problems for these basics. The most played one is Magnezone Prime which can knock on out with 3 energies, so the main problem there is energy acceleration (Pachirisu helps, as well as other cards). There are other pokemon capable of doing 150 damage or more as well, the main problem is that the metagame as a whole makes these cards either too slow or inconsistent to compete. I think a better idea would be to make some cards that included ways to improve these older underplayed cards without breaking them, or being able to efficiently and quickly deal with a specific problem card (much in the same way Cryogonal could be seen as a Donphan Counter). as opposed to making 1 card with an attack that deals with everything, At the end of the day, not every card in a set will be equally good and some will see a lot more play then others.
The other is that there are already pokemon that can be problems for these basics. The most played one is Magnezone Prime which can knock on out with 3 energies, so the main problem there is energy acceleration (Pachirisu helps, as well as other cards). There are other pokemon capable of doing 150 damage or more as well, the main problem is that the metagame as a whole makes these cards either too slow or inconsistent to compete. I think a better idea would be to make some cards that included ways to improve these older underplayed cards without breaking them, or being able to efficiently and quickly deal with a specific problem card (much in the same way Cryogonal could be seen as a Donphan Counter). as opposed to making 1 card with an attack that deals with everything, At the end of the day, not every card in a set will be equally good and some will see a lot more play then others.
Hahahaha, YES. No, but seriously.Celebi23 said:
Think about it this way. If TPCi started making cards just to counter each other...especially throwing a Take Out attack in the game just to solve our problems...what's that going to do to the game? More players would shift to the Pokemon with Take Out in hopes of an advantage over Reshi and Zekrom and Tornadus and friends. What happens to the diversity? Shot. Gone. No more. We have a decent mix of decks right now. I don't see why a Take Out is needed right now. bija listed many Stage 1 attackers prominent in the metagame today. Basics aren't the only ones taking over the format. We see Zoroark as a decent counter. We like Gothitelle. Why complain? I guess we'll see when the EXs are released.
Celebi23 said:
My argument wasn't that Archeops was a big problem, or even that take out would fix it, but if I'm playing a stage 2 deck, thats something else I need to watch out for. Its another way to auto-loss. But if I play a basic deck I don't have to worry about it.