Discussion Broken Cards...

[Pikachu6319]

Let me answer that one as I just had this discussion with someone on facebook. Many think cards like Hau or Shauna are basically overpowered. Pot of Greed was and is still banned and will probably never be unbanned because it gives a person two cards for free. Every other card that allows card draws has some sort of negative effect to it. They see cards like Hau and Shauna which is three cards and has no drawbacks aside from using the supporter for that turn and think it's kind of broken. I was specifically asked to point out any other card game that does that sort of thing besides Pokémon. FYI I was able to produce three examples that I know of.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

@crystal_pidgeot, I'm not following the back-and-forth between you and @PMJ too closely; as such, this is a surgical strike of a response because you tagged me. If I did take the time, I expect such a post would only be smaller than the sum of your posts plus those of PMJ because your own posts are often quoting each other.

And that is completely fair.

Instead, you made one short post and how many "Wall O'Text" posts since?


I know you're not me, but based on almost two decades of TCG discussion, I prefer to begin this kind of thread by explaining how I'll be using the term "broken". If other things weren't getting in the way, I'd have already stated my thoughts about card banning as well. After that, then I can make shorter posts about specific cards (I hope). XD

I know, I know and I wanted to avoid that. I didn't want to make a huge post and didn't think it would make it this far to be honest. I wanted two or three statements at most. I guess next time I'll just do it.

Honest question; do I need to explain the differences between games like Pokémon and Magic: The Gathering? I already gave an example of how a MtG player with little or no Pokémon TCG experience thought Lysandre's Trump Card was balanced, if not a little underwhelming; at the very least, that ought to prove that any MtG player might not understand Pokémon at a glance. Do some? Absolutely; for all I know, it could be the majority. If my point still isn't clear, let me ask you, what would many Yu-Gi-Oh players with little or no Pokémon TCG experience think about a card like Hau?

Nope, you don't but I don't play MtG anymore but I would think somethings would be the same. To be honest with you, I also thought Lysandre's Trump Card was balanced, and I still do. It was a good resource for my deck but someone broke it because of how powerful they made the trainer cards and Pokemon. Maybe to a MtG player it looked balanced because cards in their game come with a cost so getting them all back doesn't do much because of how the designers make their cards.

As for Yu-Gi-Oh, I know they would lose their mind over a free draw three and that's because it would be a staple in every deck, but then it would get banned. I also think this draw problem is a problem in Pokemon as well and lately, I've been considering the lines between Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh to be closing and that is because the potential of what happens after, which was why they banned Pot of Greed and Graceful Charity and other similar draw cards because it gave too many combo pieces for free. In Pokemon, you can lose to Professor Sycamore from a top deck after carefully setting up your board. It would be fine if cards were designed better, then this wouldn't be a problem for me but card design ruined Lysandre's Trump Card.

Again, let me know if I do need to get into the different mechanics of these games and how they can cause an effect both games share to perform very differently. Switching gears...

Sure, why not.

I must disagree. I do not think Kiawe needs to be banned, but I have already asserted that not all "broken" cards need to be equally powerful and that sometimes the only thing keeping us from noticing how overly potent one card can be is that another broken card has the metagame by the throat. I cited Ace Spec cards as an example earlier; no matter how broken an effect one gives an Ace Spec card, if the game's designers released one with an even more broken effect, the less broken one would see less (possibly no) play.

I agree with that. People keep saying "Gardevoir-GX counters Kiawe" but Gardevoir-GX is a broken card that people use, which prevents from people from looking at Kiawe.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

Well is there anything more powerful then ho-oh to kiawe onto? Because if not then it doesn't matter

Anything that can take KO come to mind. Pidgeot-EX and Drampa-GX are capable of knocking out your 60 and 80 (90 with FFB) Pokemon trying to evolve and go up a few Prizes. M Mewtwo-EX, Lugia-EX can hit 180 with it. Camerupt-EX becomes scary. I'm sure there are lots of existing cards that use it better than Ho-Oh-GX. We also have future cards to consider that could be really overpowered or under-powered because of Kiawe.

Also if you really are a game designer then it sounds like you aren't a very good one.

Was this even called for? I take it you don't know much about what considerations go into designing a multiplayer game like making sure what item or weapon you make doesn't make everything else worse because at that point, you're designing things to beat the overpowered thing, which is what we call silver bullets and if you have to keep making silver bullets to be other silver bullets, then you're doing something wrong. This is currently the problem Yu-Gi-Oh is having.

 

[Alex Sableye]

Alolan Exeggutor-GX is neat in theory because his first attack snipes based on your Energy count, but again this means you're either throwing four Energy onto an Exeggcute or sacrificing one of your attacking turns to do it for mediocre payoff. No serious player is going to do this though because they aren't idiots.

This is the one thing that I disagree with. I have been testing an AE/Vika deck and I won without the opponent taking a single prize card. (playing against a Drampa GX/Garbodor deck) So, AE can be an amazing card.

 

[Otaku]

And that is completely fair.

Then I shall continue with this approach, to avoid me needlessly repeating most of the discussion between @PMJ and yourself... which will probably just end with me taking a third position somewhere between the two of you. XD Hint: I would be more focused on the First Turn rules than anything else.

...don't play MtG anymore but I would think somethings would be the same.

When you break things down into their smallest and/or most general aspects, they can be the same. Concepts like "Beatdown", "Control", etc. apply to most TCGs, but the specifics will affect what that means.

To be honest with you, I also thought Lysandre's Trump Card was balanced, and I still do.

Where as I not only think it is obviously broken but pretty much thought so the instant I saw the card. This pretty much confirms I'll need to take this to a different thread, probably one where we'll discuss how Magic: The Gathering, Decipher's Mega Man TCG, and Yu-Gi-Oh compare and contrast with Pokémon. I won't be starting it now, because I'm already trying to work ahead because my Friday will not be my own...

(...and I'm horribly behind with some other writing even before considering the rest).

 

[gumball51321]

I really do question your position as staff with how you talk to other people. I wouldn't have you on staff with how aggressive you are to people but since you yourself stated that you're a bad player in this game, I'll do my best to explain this to you as a game designer.

This game give a HUGE advantage to the player going first. They get the first Supporter, the first attachment for Energy, the first player who can evolve their Pokemon - Everything but attack on the first turn. Kiawe gives the player going first a five Energy turn, or up to five anyway. Sure you have to end your turn afterwards but this doesn't matter because you, as the player going first can't attack. This comes with no consequence to the player going first. Giving the player going first a that can put four energy on the board, with many good attackers to support with is too much advantage to the point the player going second can't respond with since this puts them down two Prizes cards before they can even do anything meaningful. This places too much pressure on the player going second who can't respond to it.

As a game designer, these kind of things need to be avoided because it gives too much advantage. MtG would never make a card like this. Yu-Gi-Oh, the kings of making broken cards would never make a card like this and for good reason. If you happen to go second against a deck using Kiawe and they manage to get four Energy on a Ho-Oh-GX, you have a unrealistically high chance of losing the best of two because you lost the coin flip. This is the reason they banned Forest of Giant Plants from Expanded, because it gives too much advantage to the player going first and with lock decks being everywhere, the ban was needed. It's why they banned Archeops, because it gives too much advantage to the player running it.

The game already demands too much of the player going second and giving the player going first a cards that can powerful a four Energy attackers breaks any kind of balance they could make with the type.

I treat everyone fairly. No one gains my ire without having done something to deserve it, and you, my friend, seem to do it on the regular. That doesn't mean I am hostile towards everyone, or even anyone besides you. I asked you to explain yourself so everyone could see how wrong you were, and you did exactly that! Let me rebut your points one by one.

PMJ, you baited me into saying the N word on the Nightbeach chat when I clearly wasn't comfortable saying it. I said nyukka( a reference to the Boondocks ), and when you asked what it meant, I tried to shrug you off by saying it was a reference, but you wanted further detail. I hesitated, but when I explained the reference, you reported me for racism and got me perma-banned. It's been like, what, 2 months? I never said anything because with how many staff were there, I just didn't care anymore, since at the time, @PikaMasterJesi PM'd me and said I would be banned for 3 days, but I still can't access the discord chat. I haven't gone in-depth on how often you treat people like crap, but if @crystal_pidgeot said something, then it obviously isn't unknown to happen.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

Then I shall continue with this approach, to avoid me needlessly repeating most of the discussion between @PMJ and yourself... which will probably just end with me taking a third position somewhere between the two of you. XD Hint: I would be more focused on the First Turn rules than anything else.

That's fine. The first turn rule is the problem with Kiawe.

When you break things down into their smallest and/or most general aspects, they can be the same. Concepts like "Beatdown", "Control", etc. apply to most TCGs, but the specifics will affect what that means.

True

Where as I not only think it is obviously broken but pretty much thought so the instant I saw the card. This pretty much confirms I'll need to take this to a different thread, probably one where we'll discuss how Magic: The Gathering, Decipher's Mega Man TCG, and Yu-Gi-Oh compare and contrast with Pokémon. I won't be starting it now, because I'm already trying to work ahead because my Friday will not be my own...

(...and I'm horribly behind with some other writing even before considering the rest).

Let me go on record by saying that I do believe Lysandre's Trump Card is broken, because in my opinion, no card should take everything in the discard pile and put it back into your deck. There was a card like this in Naruto;

Spoiler

I used this card to win many events but it wasn't broken despite being good. If you want me to explain the card I will but this is a perfect example of a broken effect but was balanced because the cards (most of them) were well designed.

 

[Pikachu6319]

Where as I not only think it is obviously broken but pretty much thought so the instant I saw the card. This pretty much confirms I'll need to take this to a different thread, probably one where we'll discuss how Magic: The Gathering, Decipher's Mega Man TCG, and Yu-Gi-Oh compare and contrast with Pokémon. I won't be starting it now, because I'm already trying to work ahead because my Friday will not be my own...

That would be interesting to see actually, especially since one of those card games I mentioned earlier is the Star Trek CCG which was also developed by Decipher.

 

[PMJ]

I supposed I could have taken the Otaku and given a huge wall of text but I really didn't want to do that but I suppose I could have said something to explain why but since I play other card game, the statement alone and knowledge of the card would have been enough. Show Kiawe to any MtG player and you'll see what I mean. I also don't post silly things all the time and sure, I accept number three.

Okay but this isn't Magic, it's Pokemon. Kiawe is not broken by this game's standards. You and whoever else already went into detail about how a C-list card like Hau would be sent straight to the Shadow Realm if it were allowed in YGO.

I agree but nothing this powerful should be available to players. When designing cards, you need to ask yourself a few things;

1. Does it break a mechanic?
2. Is it possible to easily respond to it?
3. Does it give too much advantage?
4. Is it future proof?

If your answer to those are yes, no, yes/maybe, maybe, they you did something wrong.

I don't think these questions definitively determine whether or not a card is broken, not to mention you would be looking at these cards in a vacuum and not with actual results. The question about future-proofing is especially jank because no one can know the answer to that until it becomes a problem.

This is my point though, the player going first who can get a Kiawe off is in a much better position to win a best of three series, since they are able to do things while you still setup. It's just like the Vileplume player going first in a best of three. They will more than likely win the series because they had the advantage of going first. Fire isn't bdif, I think that belongs to Gardevoir-GX but my argument isn't for fire, but decks that can use the card effectively.

So basically, Fire.

Also the person going first in game one of a best of three has a decided advantage if it goes to game 3 anyway since they will get to go first twice. Kiawe doesn't really change that.

Mechanics. Do you remember a deck called The Truth? That is how Vileplume is supposed to be played. Every card has a mechanic.

This is not at all comparable. Everything was different back then. Cleffa, Pichu, and especially Twins made setup fairly easy. Twins is god. Teammates was a colossal nerf.

Decidueye-GX is a interesting card, which is made broken by FoGP. When I say interesting, I'm saying "do something cool with".

Every Pokemon I mentioned did something cool. :[ Decidueye is cool, but I believe it was made to be spammed. That's why Razor Leaf is so weak.

Moltres-GX could have a damage scaling attack for Energy attached to it and because Kiawe exist, they might choose to do something else with it.

Or they could balance how much it scales. Give it a high base damage and trickle the damage increase. Or not, I mean Ho-Oh does 180 damage, so...

Plus "something else" could be even cooler. Have some faith.

Maybe they wanted to make a Grass-type have a cool Ability but choose not to because FoGP existed. Banning FoGP means they can do cool things with the type without breaking it. You're right, interesting doesn't have to mean competitive, but I was never talking about competitive play, I'm talking about game design.

I'll again direct your attention to all the Pokemon I listed. Most of them have interesting Abilities but never saw any use outside of casual play.

This is true but can you imagine getting three into play with forest? You could donk whatever you wanted if you went first.

Yes. This contributed to Forest's ban.

It was a reason. There are other reasons I could speculate, like Vespiquen being too powerful with Revitalizer being around. You could never punish your opponent. In Vileplume, they could speed through their deck, discarding whatever they wanted but as long as they had Revitalizer, they could get back Vileplume and going first means they could do this and lock you out of the game before you saw a single card. The card offered too many interaction for the Grass-type, both intended (Vileplume) and unintended (Decidueye-GX).

ok

This doesn't mean the card wasn't broken though. Many things can stay legal. Most of the time they fly under the radar. Greedy dice is a broken card because of what it can do, which is flying under the radar but with the card pool growing, something could "disturb" it.

There's nothing wrong with Greedy Dice at all:

1. It has to be in your prizes to work
2. It has to be face down, so no Town Map
3. You can't play it. If it's in your hand or deck, it's 100% dead. At least you can evolve stuff into Talonflame.
4. It requires a coin flip to work

All of these checks keep it fair. Delta Plus lets you take extra prizes too. Are you saying all of those not-broken Pokemon are broken?

Yes, banning Archeops was the right thing to do but it just a Red Herring. The true problem was its interaction with Maxie. Maxie and Archie should be banned because they could break three types in the game.

Yes, and banning Archeops solved the problem without removing any other potential uses of A/M.

There is risk in everything, sure but this doesn't mean it's not broken. Giving the player going first four of a resource for free will always be broken.

It's not broken if the meta is equipped to handle it. Gardevoir checks it pretty well, and Gardevoir is everywhere.

Setup is something to consider as well. Did player going first do anything meaningful? There was a time where there were at least a few turns of setup before kills were taken.

This is still the case, save for Kiawe targets because what the card was designed to do.

So were FoGP and Vileplume.

You mentioned not wanting to play Gardevoir-GX as a way to check Kiawe, then talked about silver bullets beating silver bullets. It seemed you were implying that Gardevoir-GX is Kiawe's silver bullet.

This is my meta right now, You either play Gardevoir-GX, Volcanion-EX or Metagross-GX. Pick your poison.

Greninja beats all three of them with varying degrees of success. I actually just completed a match against Gardevoir using Greninja where he attacked with Infinite Force from t2 onward, but Shadow Stitching rocked his world. I believe the matchup is in Gardevoir's favor, but Greninja definitely can beat it. Volc and Metagross are layups, naturally.

Or you could just play something silly. Salazzle/Lurantis is super fun.

Saying something is bad means nothing because these Pokemon are valid users of Kiawe.

It means everything. If a Pokemon has an attack that costs four Energy and that attack is awful, no one is going to care that you powered it up in one turn.

Yeah, this is true but like I said above, they are valid users of Kiawe.

Just because you could doesn't mean you should.

Or no one good enough can use Kiawe.

You're not good enough to make that assumption. Besides, I really doubt a card as powerful as Kiawe has gone unnoticed or ignored by the greatest minds this game has to offer. If it's as unfair as you claim it is, its possibilities would have been extensively researched.

We don't know this, which is a problem with Kiawe existing.

Yes we do. Here's a list of every Pokemon in Standard with attacks that cost either XCCC or XCCCC, where X is any colored energy type:

Alolan Golem GUR (LCCC, 200 minus 30 for each Energy in defender's retreat cost)
Arceus XY116 (CCCC, 120, discard 1 from self)
Bewear-GX (CCCC, 2 coins, 100 x heads)
Bewear-GX (CCCC, discard opponent's active - GX attack)
Blissey GUR (CCCC, 160, 80 to self)
Braviary BKT (CCCC, 2 coins, 80 x heads)
Chansey GUR (CCCC, 80)
Chansey EVO (CCCC, 80, 80 to self)
Dewgong FAC (WCCC, 100)
Dragonite SUM (CCCC, 200, tails fails)
Dragonite-EX EVO (CCCC, 130, discard 1 from defender)
Garbodor BKT (PCCC, 60, confuse and poison defender)
Gyarados GEN (WCCC, 90, flip for each W attached, +30 x heads)
Hariyama SUM (FCCC, 130)
Kangaskhan SUM (CCCC, 4 coins, 50 x heads)
Kangaskhan FAC (CCCC, 100)
Kingdra-EX (WCCC, 60, +30 x attached basic L)
Lugia XY156 (CCCC, 80, 2 coins, +20 x heads)
Lugia BREAK (CCCC, 150, discard 2 from self)
M Gyarados-EX (CCCC, 120, optional +20 for each W attached and mill 2 from own deck if you do)
M Steelix-EX (MCCCC, 160, 10 to opponent's bench)
Mamoswine BKT (FCCC, 80, +40 if your stadium is in play, heal 40 if their stadium is in play)
Mewtwo-EX EVO (PCCC, 110)
Mudsdale BUS (FCCC, 130, 30 to self, 30 to 1 benched)
Ninetales-EX (RCCC, 130, discard 1 from self)
Palossand BUS (CCCC, 100, discard all cards from both actives)
Palossand SUM (FCCC, 50, heal the damage you do)
Pangoro GUR (DCCC, 130)
Probopass GUR (CCCC, 120)
Rayquaza-EX XY69 (CCCC, 130, flip, discard 2 from self if tails)
Regigigas XY82 (CCCC, 100, 2 coins, fails if both tails)
Snorlax XY179 (CCCC, 50, flip for paralysis)
Snorlax FAC (CCCC, 50, heal the damage you do)
Snorlax GEN (CCCC, 120, heal 20, fall asleep)
Snorlax BKT (CCCC, 50, flip for +30)
Snorlax-GX (CCCCC, 180, fails if user not asleep)
Snorlax-GX (CCCCC, 210, fall asleep - GX attack)
Steelix-EX (MCCC, 80, optional +50, 20 to self if you do)
Steelix-EX (MCCCC, flip until tails, 100 x heads)
Stoutland SUM (CCCC, 120)
Tangrowth BUS (CCCC, 4 coins, 50 x heads)
Togekiss-EX (YCCC, 4 coins, 50 x heads)
Ursaring BKT (CCCC, 80, 2 coins, +40 x heads)
Vikavolt SUM (LCCC, 150, discard 3 from self)
Vikavolt-GX (LCCC, 180, discard 2 from self)
Vikavolt-GX (LCCC, 60 to opponent's bench - GX attack)
Whiscash GUR (FCCC, mill 3 from self, 100 x energy cards discarded)

You see any good choices in here? Cause all I see is a lotta meme decks. Dragonite-EX is looking to be your best option here but at that point you might as well just use Ho-Oh for more damage and more life.

My point is it would be hard to do anything interesting with the type because of Kiawe. I could break Camerupt with this card. I might actually do it too.

Just use Ho-Oh.

Well, that isn't the only time. Maybe they put something back on the Bench and you can move it. Now you have another turn to Kiawe. Maybe you just want to be that guy and Kiawe again.

If that's the case then your opponent probably has nothing and is gonna lose anyway. I mean, if your most appealing option is to not attack and instead Kiawe, you're probably just memeing at this point.

PMJ, you baited me into saying the N word on the Nightbeach chat when I clearly wasn't comfortable saying it. I said nyukka( a reference to the Boondocks ), and when you asked what it meant, I tried to shrug you off by saying it was a reference, but you wanted further detail. I hesitated, but when I explained the reference, you reported me for racism and got me perma-banned. It's been like, what, 2 months? I never said anything because with how many staff were there, I just didn't care anymore, since at the time, @PikaMasterJesi PM'd me and said I would be banned for 3 days, but I still can't access the discord chat. I haven't gone in-depth on how often you treat people like crap, but if @crystal_pidgeot said something, then it obviously isn't unknown to happen.

Oh hey, I remember you. Yeah, that was fun. Anyway the bait was unnecessary, I was going to see you banned anyway; you just made it easier for me, that's all.

With that said, I was not rude to you. And I have nothing to say on your ban, I have no powers there. I assumed bans expired automatically, or that someone would have said something. I see you've already tagged Jesi so I won't bother doing it again. If she doesn't get back to you, and you really want to come back I can ask another staff member to remove the ban.

 

[PMJ]

I was going to mention this in my previous post but I forgot to.

Gardevoir-GX is a broken card that people use

I think this explains why no one should be taking your game design concerns seriously. Your definition of "broken" is so loose that anything good is broken (except Pidgeot-EX) and everything bad is the fault of the man designing these overpowered cards which prevents neat and cool and interesting cards from seeing play. Didn't you make like a 30-minute video where you did nothing but cry about Night March?

 

[Otaku]

There's nothing wrong with Greedy Dice at all:

1. It has to be in your prizes to work
2. It has to be face down, so no Town Map
3. You can't play it. If it's in your hand or deck, it's 100% dead. At least you can evolve stuff into Talonflame.
4. It requires a coin flip to work

All of these checks keep it fair. Delta Plus lets you take extra prizes too. Are you saying all of those not-broken Pokemon are broken?

Again, I'm only catching bits and pieces of your debate, but this one caught my eye.

When I've got the patience and notice, I try to call out @crystal_pidgeot when I think he makes a poor argument. Even if I actually agree with part of what he is saying at that point. I'm going to extend the same treatment to you, here. If this is me taking this bit out of context, you do have my apologies. Reading around it, though, I think I do understand. PMJ, Greedy Dice is a poorly designed, poorly balanced card. The net result is that it is bad, but consider the very points you made and how easily things could have gone the other way. Greedy Dice is a card that rewards not skill but luck. Does it require no skill to use well? Making do with (effectively) fewer cards, having to deal with cards that are dead in your deck, having to deal with an effect that depends on a coin flip all require skill, but at the cost of other skill. An incompetent player can still gain a lucky win thanks to Greedy Dice, and even if used by a skill player the results ultimately require a good helping of luck. Too much of this can sour casual play; it has a long history of troubling the competitive scene.

Think also of how Greedy Dice constrains future card design, even future game design. After nearly 20 years, I am thoroughly convinced the "Prize" mechanic I originally praised was a terrible idea and needs to be radically altered or flat-out replaced. I'm okay with that forcing several cards to become useless, become banned, or require extensive errata to preserve the status quo, but I know it would be a problem for TPC. Yes, I realize they most likely take no issue with the Prize mechanic; I'll explain the relevance shortly. Even just keeping things as they are, this means some of the long-desired effects, like better manipulation of what is in your Prizes, are further constrained. All of this is bad enough if it was because one of their serious efforts, designing a card that was a corporate mandate, etc. failed them. Greedy Dice was most likely intended as "fun filler". These kinds of cards pop up far too much, and sooner or later you get a card like that which ends up mattering, and it causes problems.

Finally, Greedy Dice versus the "Δ Plus" Ancient Trait; one is a Trainer that could be slipped into any deck with space and relies purely on luck while the other is only part of a card. Δ Plus isn't inherently unbalanced because you need to look at the rest of the card to put it into context. It is, however, an effect with a high chance of proving unbalanced. I will also stress that most of the competitive card pool is broken when you look at what it does to the game's general mechanics, pacing, and maximizing the enjoyment of the entire player base. Yes, this sounds hyperbolic, but I'm not exaggerating. Every Pokémon has its own fans, but the game designers struggle to balance the Types and the Stages against each other. Not everyone enjoys the same approach to playing a TCG, but the game struggles to make decks that really "feel" different. The main goal of winning decks seems to be to turn the game into pseudo-solitaire; you (the opponent) are going to sit there while I finish having my fun, whether because I've got a killer lock or just the raw power to make your turns functionally worthless.

 

[PMJ]

PMJ, Greedy Dice is a poorly designed, poorly balanced card.

crystal_pidgeot said Greedy Dice was broken because of what it can do - specifically, give "free" Prizes. If the only stipulation for taking an extra prize was that you took Greedy Dice as a prize card, face up or otherwise, then it would be in every deck. The restrictions on it make it usable without making it completely unfair to do so. I use "usable" only in the strictest sense here, since in the overwhelming majority of your games you will not successfully use Greedy Dice.

Poorly designed? Maybe. I will say that I like the idea. It's a unique card. Poorly balanced? This I disagree with. Whether or not the card should have been made in the first place is another story, but considering that the goal of the card is to award extra prizes, Greedy Dice is balanced so as not to become overpowered.

Either way, the card isn't broken.

The net result is that it is bad, but consider the very points you made and how easily things could have gone the other way.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

Greedy Dice is a card that rewards not skill but luck. Does it require no skill to use well? Making do with (effectively) fewer cards, having to deal with cards that are dead in your deck, having to deal with an effect that depends on a coin flip all require skill, but at the cost of other skill. An incompetent player can still gain a lucky win thanks to Greedy Dice, and even if used by a skill player the results ultimately require a good helping of luck. Too much of this can sour casual play; it has a long history of troubling the competitive scene.

And it always will. Pokemon Catcher, Roller Skates, and other tails-fails Trainer cards like all reward good luck. Greedy Dice is an extreme example of this, requiring many stipulations in addition to "flip heads."

Think also of how Greedy Dice constrains future card design, even future game design. After nearly 20 years, I am thoroughly convinced the "Prize" mechanic I originally praised was a terrible idea and needs to be radically altered or flat-out replaced. I'm okay with that forcing several cards to become useless, become banned, or require extensive errata to preserve the status quo, but I know it would be a problem for TPC. Yes, I realize they most likely take no issue with the Prize mechanic; I'll explain the relevance shortly. Even just keeping things as they are, this means some of the long-desired effects, like better manipulation of what is in your Prizes, are further constrained. All of this is bad enough if it was because one of their serious efforts, designing a card that was a corporate mandate, etc. failed them. Greedy Dice was most likely intended as "fun filler". These kinds of cards pop up far too much, and sooner or later you get a card like that which ends up mattering, and it causes problems.

As I'm sure you know, the Prize mechanic is meant to emulate the video games, where you can carry six Pokemon and if you get six Pokemon KOed, you lose. Because of this, I don't think it's going to go away any time soon, or ever. I have mixed feelings on it, which likely stems at least in part from the realization everyone has felt that you've prized an important card that you can't seem to find in your prizes even when you do get a kill in. It's hard not to be a little bit salty when that happens.

Greedy Dice definitely fills the definition of "fun filler." Does it matter competitively, or cause problems competitively? No. Will it in the future? I seriously doubt it.

Finally, Greedy Dice versus the "Δ Plus" Ancient Trait; one is a Trainer that could be slipped into any deck with space aned relies purely on luck while the other is only part of a card. Δ Plus isn't inherently unbalanced because you need to look at the rest of the card to put it into context. It is, however, an effect with a high chance of proving unbalanced.

At their cores, both of them do the same thing - give more prizes than you would otherwise be entitled to. Greedy Dice is balanced by absurd restrictions. Delta Plus is balanced by being on some really bad Pokemon that deal low damage or, in Dragonite's case, a colossal attack cost. I think if you explained to someone that there was a card or effect that let you get extra prizes if you got lucky, then yes they would claim it was unbalanced, but explaining the context surrounding the cards that allow you to take those extra prizes can change their mind.

I don't think Delta Plus is unbalanced at all. I was mostly just asking if crystal_pidgeot thought it was.

I will also stress that most of the competitive card pool is broken when you look at what it does to the game's general mechanics, pacing, and maximizing the enjoyment of the entire player base. Yes, this sounds hyperbolic, but I'm not exaggerating. Every Pokémon has its own fans, but the game designers struggle to balance the Types and the Stages against each other. Not everyone enjoys the same approach to playing a TCG, but the game struggles to make decks that really "feel" different. The main goal of winning decks seems to be to turn the game into pseudo-solitaire; you (the opponent) are going to sit there while I finish having my fun, whether because I've got a killer lock or just the raw power to make your turns functionally worthless.

I think that straight lock decks are cancer. This is why I enjoy playing Sableye so much. There is a lock of sorts present, but you aren't prevented from trying to do something about it. You can play any card you want and it's on me to react accordingly. It's a hugely satisfying deck to win with, because unlike Item lock decks, your opponent can still actively play towards their win condition while you play towards yours.

Mill needs to be taken more seriously as a strategy and not just as an afterthought. It was mentioned in LTC's ban reason, but that has less to do with milling specifically and more with never being able to lose by deck out.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

Okay but this isn't Magic, it's Pokemon. Kiawe is not broken by this game's standards. You and whoever else already went into detail about how a C-list card like Hau would be sent straight to the Shadow Realm if it were allowed in YGO.

Sure, but there are certain things that transcend all game. Yu-Gi-Oh has other methods of drawing cards and decks that play from the deck, discard pile and removed from game pile. Yes, Hau would be banned in Yu-Gi-Oh but so would a card like Garbodor GRI.

I don't think these questions definitively determine whether or not a card is broken, not to mention you would be looking at these cards in a vacuum and not with actual results. The question about future-proofing is especially jank because no one can know the answer to that until it becomes a problem.

You have to ask these questions. The first turn rule is a mechanic that prevents the player from going first from attacking so giving them a card like Kiawe buffs the first turn. You also need to future proof powerful cards. The ones that bug me currently are Garbodor, Kiawe and Gardevoir-GX because of how they interact with mechanics of the game. You need to play item or your too slow and you can't attack without Energy, which makes Gardevoir too powerful. You have to make sure that its current design work and not ruin future designs. This works for Yugioh because they just ban it but in Pokemon, everything has a two year life in Standard with no chance of being banned in most cases.

So basically, Fire.

Also the person going first in game one of a best of three has a decided advantage if it goes to game 3 anyway since they will get to go first twice. Kiawe doesn't really change that.

Any deck that can put on huge pressure or get kills is a valid card. Being able to have a two prize advantage simply by going first is huge in the series.

This is not at all comparable. Everything was different back then. Cleffa, Pichu, and especially Twins made setup fairly easy. Twins is god. Teammates was a colossal nerf.

Why not? Every card has something it's good at and you build around it. You don't play a slow Mega Ray deck.

Every Pokemon I mentioned did something cool. :[ Decidueye is cool, but I believe it was made to be spammed. That's why Razor Leaf is so weak.

Decidueye is a card I see that does 110 for three. The card was designed to be spammed but it had a odd interaction with FoGP.

Or they could balance how much it scales. Give it a high base damage and trickle the damage increase. Or not, I mean Ho-Oh does 180 damage, so...

Plus "something else" could be even cooler. Have some faith.

We don't know for sure but from what I know about balance of game, if you have something that can break something new going to be added, you have to make that thing weaker in response to it or remove that broken thing so you can make new things interesting. This is the reason guns in shooters have super awkward animations and why those slower to reload have easier times to kill where as the fast, quick loading guns have a harder time to kill. Sure Ho-Oh does 180 damage but it also has that debuff where it can't attack again. A Pokemon that can keep attacking will be a better use of the card. Something else cool could be done for Moltres-GX but the rules of design says to keep a card like Kiawe in mind when designing Moltres-GX.

I'll again direct your attention to all the Pokemon I listed. Most of them have interesting Abilities but never saw any use outside of casual play.

This isn't a problem with their design, it's the problem with the game and pace of play.

There's nothing wrong with Greedy Dice at all:

1. It has to be in your prizes to work
2. It has to be face down, so no Town Map
3. You can't play it. If it's in your hand or deck, it's 100% dead. At least you can evolve stuff into Talonflame.
4. It requires a coin flip to work

All of these checks keep it fair. Delta Plus lets you take extra prizes too. Are you saying all of those not-broken Pokemon are broken?

All of this is true for Talonflame as well, well most of it. Number two isn't even a factor because any deck using the card wont run it. Also, there are times you won't even start Talonflame, meaning you have four dead cards in your deck. Even if you can get one Greedy Dice off, you still have a chance to win games or at least take an extra Prize card. Otaku explains this so I won't go into detail.

Yes, and banning Archeops solved the problem without removing any other potential uses of A/M.

A/M should be banned too because the same things could happen again.

It's not broken if the meta is equipped to handle it. Gardevoir checks it pretty well, and Gardevoir is everywhere.

This is because Gardevoir is a broken card.

You mentioned not wanting to play Gardevoir-GX as a way to check Kiawe, then talked about silver bullets beating silver bullets. It seemed you were implying that Gardevoir-GX is Kiawe's silver bullet.

That isn't exactly what I said. I said not everyone wants to play Gardevoir-GX and yes, both cards are silver bullets and now we're getting another one to beat Gardevoir.

Greninja beats all three of them with varying degrees of success. I actually just completed a match against Gardevoir using Greninja where he attacked with Infinite Force from t2 onward, but Shadow Stitching rocked his world. I believe the matchup is in Gardevoir's favor, but Greninja definitely can beat it. Volc and Metagross are layups, naturally.

I mean, I beat a Tapu Koko-GX deck with my Pidgeot deck. It can happen, sure but it isn't likely too. Gardevoir has all the advantage in that match but I have seen Greninja do some impressive thing.

Or you could just play something silly. Salazzle/Lurantis is super fun.

I'm actually working on a Salazzle build.

It means everything. If a Pokemon has an attack that costs four Energy and that attack is awful, no one is going to care that you powered it up in one turn.

Not everything can be playable but Kiawe gives those cards life.

Just because you could doesn't mean you should.

Why not? They could have a chance in the meta. I mean Mega Audino won worlds.

You're not good enough to make that assumption. Besides, I really doubt a card as powerful as Kiawe has gone unnoticed or ignored by the greatest minds this game has to offer. If it's as unfair as you claim it is, its possibilities would have been extensively researched.

Neither are you. No one wants to use it because of Gardevoir and that is a valid reason. These great minds could have something in the works but they have to keep gardy in mind.

Yes we do. Here's a list of every Pokemon in Standard with attacks that cost either XCCC or XCCCC, where X is any colored energy type:

Alolan Golem GUR (LCCC, 200 minus 30 for each Energy in defender's retreat cost)
Arceus XY116 (CCCC, 120, discard 1 from self)
Bewear-GX (CCCC, 2 coins, 100 x heads)
Bewear-GX (CCCC, discard opponent's active - GX attack)
Blissey GUR (CCCC, 160, 80 to self)
Braviary BKT (CCCC, 2 coins, 80 x heads)
Chansey GUR (CCCC, 80)
Chansey EVO (CCCC, 80, 80 to self)
Dewgong FAC (WCCC, 100)
Dragonite SUM (CCCC, 200, tails fails)
Dragonite-EX EVO (CCCC, 130, discard 1 from defender)
Garbodor BKT (PCCC, 60, confuse and poison defender)
Gyarados GEN (WCCC, 90, flip for each W attached, +30 x heads)
Hariyama SUM (FCCC, 130)
Kangaskhan SUM (CCCC, 4 coins, 50 x heads)
Kangaskhan FAC (CCCC, 100)
Kingdra-EX (WCCC, 60, +30 x attached basic L)
Lugia XY156 (CCCC, 80, 2 coins, +20 x heads)
Lugia BREAK (CCCC, 150, discard 2 from self)
M Gyarados-EX (CCCC, 120, optional +20 for each W attached and mill 2 from own deck if you do)
M Steelix-EX (MCCCC, 160, 10 to opponent's bench)
Mamoswine BKT (FCCC, 80, +40 if your stadium is in play, heal 40 if their stadium is in play)
Mewtwo-EX EVO (PCCC, 110)
Mudsdale BUS (FCCC, 130, 30 to self, 30 to 1 benched)
Ninetales-EX (RCCC, 130, discard 1 from self)
Palossand BUS (CCCC, 100, discard all cards from both actives)
Palossand SUM (FCCC, 50, heal the damage you do)
Pangoro GUR (DCCC, 130)
Probopass GUR (CCCC, 120)
Rayquaza-EX XY69 (CCCC, 130, flip, discard 2 from self if tails)
Regigigas XY82 (CCCC, 100, 2 coins, fails if both tails)
Snorlax XY179 (CCCC, 50, flip for paralysis)
Snorlax FAC (CCCC, 50, heal the damage you do)
Snorlax GEN (CCCC, 120, heal 20, fall asleep)
Snorlax BKT (CCCC, 50, flip for +30)
Snorlax-GX (CCCCC, 180, fails if user not asleep)
Snorlax-GX (CCCCC, 210, fall asleep - GX attack)
Steelix-EX (MCCC, 80, optional +50, 20 to self if you do)
Steelix-EX (MCCCC, flip until tails, 100 x heads)
Stoutland SUM (CCCC, 120)
Tangrowth BUS (CCCC, 4 coins, 50 x heads)
Togekiss-EX (YCCC, 4 coins, 50 x heads)
Ursaring BKT (CCCC, 80, 2 coins, +40 x heads)
Vikavolt SUM (LCCC, 150, discard 3 from self)
Vikavolt-GX (LCCC, 180, discard 2 from self)
Vikavolt-GX (LCCC, 60 to opponent's bench - GX attack)
Whiscash GUR (FCCC, mill 3 from self, 100 x energy cards discarded)

You see any good choices in here? Cause all I see is a lotta meme decks. Dragonite-EX is looking to be your best option here but at that point you might as well just use Ho-Oh for more damage and more life.

I'm pretty sure I meant things going forward. I also want to look at EX/GX cards as they would be the best users of it. I have considered a Quad Dragonite-EX Energy removal deck with it. Lugia BREAK isn't all that bad either.

Just use Ho-Oh.

Camerupt doesn't die badly too Gardy.

If that's the case then your opponent probably has nothing and is gonna lose anyway. I mean, if your most appealing option is to not attack and instead Kiawe, you're probably just memeing at this point.

There is reason to get two Ho-Oh-GX or other big attackers up. If my opponent doesn't do much during their turn, then why not get two of them going? I mean, that Tapu Lele will always be there.

I was going to mention this in my previous post but I forgot to.



I think this explains why no one should be taking your game design concerns seriously. Your definition of "broken" is so loose that anything good is broken (except Pidgeot-EX) and everything bad is the fault of the man designing these overpowered cards which prevents neat and cool and interesting cards from seeing play. Didn't you make like a 30-minute video where you did nothing but cry about Night March?

Good doesn't mean broken. There are many factors that go into it and for me personally, game mechanics are one of them. I also didn't cry in my Night March video. Could you maybe stop devolving everything into such, especially for what I intended to be a joke video?

 

[Alex Sableye]

@crystal_pidgeot Kiawe is perfectly balanced, fire decks are the only ones who would even consider using it, unlike Lele or Brigette, which can be used in ANY deck.

 

[AuraJackle]

Im gonna chime in with this sh*t storm flying around between these two. I respect both of you, but arguing here isnt getting anybodies point across.

Now to this point. I completly agree that Greedy dice is a broken item card that could have some re-precautions in the near future. With Gladion Releasing that can shuffle on of your cards from your hand to your discard in exchange for a card of your choice from the prizes. You could easily switch around 2-3 within the first few turns in expanded. This coupled with things like wailord that could stall while you setup a chain reaction that all relies on just one KO. It just all seems a little too much. It breaks the 6 prize rule. With dowsing machine you can pull it up after a success or fail, and not to mention puzzle of time. This sort of thing can lead to 4-5 prizes off of one kill, and if it were a GX/EX were talking about game. Thats absolutely crazy! This isnt something thats out of question. You can easily pull this thing off with a stall type deck, especially something like Sableye that can just keep bouncing energy and Life Dews. This just makes me cringe at the fact that when Crimson Invasion comes out I will have to start dealing with stall type decks more because theyre whole strat no longer relies on just decking. The build a couple attackers behind to find 1 KO and then pray they flip 2/4 and then just dig through the discard to find it and it give it one more go. This is more luck based than anything, and could be rather infuriating.

that is not how gladion works
also its repercussions

 

[Lanstar]

Concerning Greedy Dice: That card is heavily dependent on how prize cards themselves could be manipulated. As of now, only Gladion in this game can really allow you to control what prizes you have - and even then, it only lets you put "itself" into the prizes - not other prizes.

I call the Dice a "Design-Lock" card: It enforces a taboo upon the TCG designers on designing future cards. In this regard, the taboo is to never give the players the power to precisely choose what they want as prizes - doing so means breaking the game! Of course, if the designers do make a card that does this, they better ban this card as well.

Design locks aren't very well designed cards in general: They restrict the innovation greatly in making new cards. I mean, if they decided not to make Greedy Dice, just imagine how Rotom Dex could have been designed: Rather and just reshuffling prizes without knowing what cards you had prized, It could have, for instance, been rewritten like this:

"Search your deck for 2 cards, and switch them with 2 of your face down Prize cards. Reshuffle your prize cards, and shuffle the switched out cards back into your deck."

Does this item card I made up sound broken if Greedy Dice was nonexistent? No way! In fact, I would have thought this card would reduce luck involved in playing - and be quite healthy for the meta.

That's my issue about the Greedy Dice: It prevents future cards from being designed to combat a luck based mechanic.

 

[Ilovepokemom]

What about Garbodor Guardians Rising? Then again, its is dropping in numbers.

 

[superdan51]

that is not how gladion works
also its repercussions

Yep thats on me, I misread what it said. Autocorrect threw in the wrong word

 

[sylvarina]

I don't think there's any broken cards in the TCG, and that's a good thing. The only card I thought was broken was Forest of Giant Plants (which ended up getting banned, yay). I might actually be in the minority here, but I think Counter Catcher could be pretty busted, I know you have to be behind on prizes but I think it could be a very frustrating and spammable card when you are.

 

[Nistua]

It's a bit funny how people always proclaim Brigette would be "broken" because you can search 3 gxes from your deck, although the card is actually much stronger and more important in Gardevoir/Metagross, decks that use it exactly like it's intended to be used...