Discussion Cards Rotating Out

I don't think considering "Legacy" as a proper format is a good idea. It's basically PTCGO's version of Unlimited, it just so happens that the cardpool doesn't go before HGSS. (Well, there are a few Stormfront cards, but I'm not sure they were ever user-obtainable.)

Realistically, I expect Expanded to eternally remain BW-on. I feel like they always envisioned it as a somewhat-less-broken Unlimited, and BW is a solid starting point for that, there's no reason to modify it.


As for the rotation... I feel like any of the three possibilities (Breakthrough-on, Breakpoint-on, or Generations-on) could happen. I kinda want Generations-on personally, as it removes the last few cards I view as "problems" (Fighting Fury Belt and Max Elixir being the big ones). Regardless, though, anything other than no rotation will be a massive improvement. We need Roaring Skies and Ancient Origins gone as soon as possible.
 
I honestly would prefer to keep expanded bw and xy because I find both sets fun to play together. There are a lot of decks that synergize cards from both sets really well that are a lot of fun to play.

I realize this is the nature of card games, but I will be sad to see a lot of those decks scrapped because once there are no longer tournaments to support their use, those cards likely just fade away.

Might just be me though. I tend to find the expanse of bw to xy a lot more fun than standard. The creativity can be pretty insane and that's what I like about the current expanded format.
 
I personally think we'll rotate to BKT-on. BREAKthrough is close enough to a "base" set card-wise, it introduces a new mechanic in the form of BREAKs, and leaves some older sets around while allowing some newer sets to see the limelight.

I don't think considering "Legacy" as a proper format is a good idea. It's basically PTCGO's version of Unlimited, it just so happens that the cardpool doesn't go before HGSS. (Well, there are a few Stormfront cards, but I'm not sure they were ever user-obtainable.)

Realistically, I expect Expanded to eternally remain BW-on. I feel like they always envisioned it as a somewhat-less-broken Unlimited, and BW is a solid starting point for that, there's no reason to modify it.


As for the rotation... I feel like any of the three possibilities (Breakthrough-on, Breakpoint-on, or Generations-on) could happen. I kinda want Generations-on personally, as it removes the last few cards I view as "problems" (Fighting Fury Belt and Max Elixir being the big ones). Regardless, though, anything other than no rotation will be a massive improvement. We need Roaring Skies and Ancient Origins gone as soon as possible.
I agree with you on the Legacy format bit, TPCi should've had the TCGO staff bring over Japan's Hall of Fame/Palace format over to the game instead giving us a repeat of past formats (as far as viable decks are concerned of course).
 
What I am about to say does not mean a person has to like the Legacy Format. You're free to like what you like and hate what you hate, so if you hate it, that's cool too. However, I want to make sure people know what it is really like. The issue on the PTCGO is obtaining cards; I know a lot of folks who get tired of it before they can assemble a worthwhile deck... which probably won't be a huge issue because even if TPCi offers no support for it (with Expanded, we have Battle Arena Decks), unlike on the PTCGO the supply of cards is much, much greater.

I started working at it ASAP as I finally had a reason to want cards from the oldest era. Prioritizing it means, while there are still decks I cannot build, I have several functional (and a few competitive) versions of Legacy Format archetypes. As a reminder, I'm that guy who spends no money on the PTCGO (including not buying physical product with Redemption Codes); everything I've got is through in game rewards and trading.

I don't think considering "Legacy" as a proper format is a good idea. It's basically PTCGO's version of Unlimited, it just so happens that the cardpool doesn't go before HGSS. (Well, there are a few Stormfront cards, but I'm not sure they were ever user-obtainable.)

I haven't played Unlimited in a while... what kind of deck variety does it have now? Is it still a format where, barring deck malfunctions, the one who goes first wins that turn?

Though not as robust as one would hope given the amount of expansions involved, and while indeed the point of the Legacy Format was to provide a place to use the HS-era (plus Call of Legends) cards, it usually seems no worse balanced than Expanded or Standard play, sometimes it even seems better.

Realistically, I expect Expanded to eternally remain BW-on. I feel like they always envisioned it as a somewhat-less-broken Unlimited, and BW is a solid starting point for that, there's no reason to modify it.

Speaking of a less-broken Unlimited, every new set pushes Expanded closer to that level. If TPC planned on Expanded remaining perpetually BW-On, then they are either okay with it eventually degenerating or were naive. I mean we already have had one BW-era card banned because an XY-era card broke it. Well worded, RiverShock; if, as you state, they were only shooting for "somewhat-less-broken", and especially if we keep things relative it will remain somewhat-less-broken than Unlimited.
 
Needless to say, Shaymin-EX is on it's way out. Though we will be getting Guardians Rising in May, we will likely see a new set in the lateness of Summer as well which could replace a great deal of trainers and effects we are losing or, PLEASE ARCEUS, change the gameplay period. My prediction is Primal up to Ancient Origins is going to go, given that is how Pokemon has done the last few years. They likely won't clean up for Sun and Moon until it has at least five sets out, so 2018 could see plenty of sets be tossed to the side.

As the sun rises, the moon sets, as new sets rise, more sets are put to bed. Or in Pokemon's case, expanded. But I just can't wait to see expanded once black and white is finally gone.
 
I was originally going to make my own post about this very same topic until I searched and found this recent thread.

My 2 cents boils down to this: Everybody and their uncle knows that Shaymin EX is probably gone from Standard come September. But my opinion on the matter comes down to Trainers' Mail.

If it does not get a reprint before rotation, rotation will most certainly be AO-on. It's too important as far as consistency goes and is our most recent "Dig into your deck to grab something" card. My theory on this also has to do with it being printed in AO as an ultra rare, a scenario which we saw happen in RoS (VS Seeker) and the reason we probably have the standard format we have now. That being Primal Clash containing UR prints of Enhanced Hammer, Switch, Dive Ball and Weakness Policy. Also, Lysandre would be lost as part of a Breakthrough-on rotation, and I don't think they want it out of the game (at least the effect).

For what it's worth, I don't think TPCI sees FOGP as terribly broken. Vileplume and Lurantis GX become unplayable in a standard without it. Vileplume for obvious reasons and I don't think Lurantis will be fast enough and be able to put out sufficient damage to keep up. Not to mention that Decidueye GX, a new and emerging archetype in both formats, would also be hurt tremendously.

Outside of that, if TM does NOT see a reprint before rotation, I honestly think anything is possible and all bets are off. Breakthrough-on seems the most logical if this were the case, but again, the entirety of my opinion on this has to do with Trainers' Mail. Breakthrough-on (or anything after Breakthrough for that matter) would be a very interesting starting point for a new standard, though.
 
I was originally going to make my own post about this very same topic until I searched and found this recent thread.

My 2 cents boils down to this: Everybody and their uncle knows that Shaymin EX is probably gone from Standard come September. But my opinion on the matter comes down to Trainers' Mail.

If it does not get a reprint before rotation, rotation will most certainly be AO-on. It's too important as far as consistency goes and is our most recent "Dig into your deck to grab something" card. My theory on this also has to do with it being printed in AO as an ultra rare, a scenario which we saw happen in RoS (VS Seeker) and the reason we probably have the standard format we have now. That being Primal Clash containing UR prints of Enhanced Hammer, Switch, Dive Ball and Weakness Policy. Also, Lysandre would be lost as part of a Breakthrough-on rotation, and I don't think they want it out of the game (at least the effect).

For what it's worth, I don't think TPCI sees FOGP as terribly broken. Vileplume and Lurantis GX become unplayable in a standard without it. Vileplume for obvious reasons and I don't think Lurantis will be fast enough and be able to put out sufficient damage to keep up. Not to mention that Decidueye GX, a new and emerging archetype in both formats, would also be hurt tremendously.

Outside of that, if TM does NOT see a reprint before rotation, I honestly think anything is possible and all bets are off. Breakthrough-on seems the most logical if this were the case, but again, the entirety of my opinion on this has to do with Trainers' Mail. Breakthrough-on (or anything after Breakthrough for that matter) would be a very interesting starting point for a new standard, though.

I think the new print of TM + VS Seeker in the two upcoming Battle Arena decks might count as their own prints (like Karen) since they are getting new art. I might be wrong about that though.
 
The main reason I believe the rotation for Standard will be Evolutions-On and Expanded will be XY-On is simply for balance of the game, whatever that may be. In Standard, should they rotate to BREAKthrough-On, it leaves cards like Greninja BREAK, Garbodor, Xerneas (and dual types), Volcanion-EX, Max Elixir and some other cards. These cards would be too dangerous to the design of Sun and Moon, which is slower and more "balance". It also removes a lot of unintended card interactions. Don't know if you play Hearthstone or not (I don't) but a developer said they have to remove or even change a lot of cards because it prevented them from making other cards they wanted that just didn't break power creep. I feel the same thing is happening here. We aren't getting new interesting cards because of what exist now or if they make them, they tend to be "broken" because they are trying to beat what has been stopping it in the first place. We also just got news on our draw seven card in the form of a shuffle-draw card, assuming you use your GX attack and since Professor Sycamore's latest print was in Steam Siege, I can see it going. It is also one of the reasons I believe the format will be Evolutions-On, if they just don't ban the card in Standard altogether. They are banning cards now so maybe this will happen instead of a deep rotation.
Have we not seen that TPCi doesn't really care about balance?
 
I think the new print of TM + VS Seeker in the two upcoming Battle Arena decks might count as their own prints (like Karen) since they are getting new art. I might be wrong about that though.

Has it been confirmed that they're new art? The only thing I've read mentions that (I believe) Professor Sycamore and Trainers' Mail will have new art. Which could be a significant designation if VS Seeker doesn't.

FWIW crystal_pidgeot, Greninja is basically toast if the rotation is anything, as it will lose Dive Ball, and other playable water decks in the metagame will have access to Ultra Ball/Aqua Patch synergy anyways. PCL certainly doesn't have any qualms about stuff like Garbodor or energy acceleration like Max Elixir being in the game. And to be fair, stuff like Decidueye GX (the main "playable" thing from SM so far, alongside Solgaleo GX/Lurantis GX) will still have access to Rare Candy if rotation is Breakthrough-on. Saying that Sun and Moon are specifically "slower" by design isn't necessarily true IMO. You get a lot in return from a Solgaleo/Decidueye being setup to make up for it.

Oh and edit, because I forgot: In regards to banning cards and them being willing to do it now that they've set a precedent: I disagree completely. I think it was a very painful and reluctant thing for them to have to make two decisions about much needed bans in such a short period of time. That's a mistake they don't want to make again.

Also, absolute craziness if expanded stays BW-on with the new Darkrai GX that's being released.
 
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Has it been confirmed that they're new art? The only thing I've read mentions that (I believe) Professor Sycamore and Trainers' Mail will have new art. Which could be a significant designation if VS Seeker doesn't.

FWIW crystal_pidgeot, Greninja is basically toast if the rotation is anything, as it will lose Dive Ball, and other playable water decks in the metagame will have access to Ultra Ball/Aqua Patch synergy anyways. PCL certainly doesn't have any qualms about stuff like Garbodor or energy acceleration like Max Elixir being in the game. And to be fair, stuff like Decidueye GX (the main "playable" thing from SM so far, alongside Solgaleo GX/Lurantis GX) will still have access to Rare Candy if rotation is Breakthrough-on. Saying that Sun and Moon are specifically "slower" by design isn't necessarily true IMO. You get a lot in return from a Solgaleo/Decidueye being setup to make up for it.

Oh and edit, because I forgot: In regards to banning cards and them being willing to do it now that they've set a precedent: I disagree completely. I think it was a very painful and reluctant thing for them to have to make two decisions about much needed bans in such a short period of time. That's a mistake they don't want to make again.

Also, absolute craziness if expanded stays BW-on with the new Darkrai GX that's being released.

I actually think Water Patch might do more than Darkrai GX. Water box decks with something other than Blastoise to accelerate energy could be a real game changer. There are some huge implications with that card. Just one example off the top of my head. You no longer necessarily need to run Toads with DCE. It would make sense to, but you could realistically get one set up on your bench T1 and then switch out the active with a 2 water attachment (or 3 if running max elixir too) Toad up top that is suddenly more than a low damage / high HP / item locking tank. It also becomes a whole lot harder to stop it from attacking since you have to get rid of 2 energy instead of one and a single turn attachment has it swinging again. I am not saying that will happen or anything, but that has some pretty huge potential. Toad suddenly becomes a finisher in addition to an item locking powerhouse. All with one card. And that happens regardless of whether expanded goes XY forward. Long story short, this kind of energy acceleration might be a game changer for water decks.

By contrast, I think Darkrai GX is probably at most a one of in expanded decks because there are so many other options that are just as good if not better at what it does. I honestly think Darkrai GX is going to make its presence felt a lot more in standard where I think it is a pretty huge addition to a couple of already strong Darkrai decks. Then again, it might end up being a one of there too. Outside the box though, it might make that Snorlax / Darkrai pancake deck more interesting.
 
Has it been confirmed that they're new art? The only thing I've read mentions that (I believe) Professor Sycamore and Trainers' Mail will have new art. Which could be a significant designation if VS Seeker doesn't.

FWIW crystal_pidgeot, Greninja is basically toast if the rotation is anything, as it will lose Dive Ball, and other playable water decks in the metagame will have access to Ultra Ball/Aqua Patch synergy anyways. PCL certainly doesn't have any qualms about stuff like Garbodor or energy acceleration like Max Elixir being in the game. And to be fair, stuff like Decidueye GX (the main "playable" thing from SM so far, alongside Solgaleo GX/Lurantis GX) will still have access to Rare Candy if rotation is Breakthrough-on. Saying that Sun and Moon are specifically "slower" by design isn't necessarily true IMO. You get a lot in return from a Solgaleo/Decidueye being setup to make up for it.

Oh and edit, because I forgot: In regards to banning cards and them being willing to do it now that they've set a precedent: I disagree completely. I think it was a very painful and reluctant thing for them to have to make two decisions about much needed bans in such a short period of time. That's a mistake they don't want to make again.

Also, absolute craziness if expanded stays BW-on with the new Darkrai GX that's being released.

I missed this post. The game moving to evolutions and key cards in decks not being reprinted means it's going to be slower. Decidueye is good right now because of FoJP. Without the cards we have now, the game becomes much slower.
 
I missed this post. The game moving to evolutions and key cards in decks not being reprinted means it's going to be slower. Decidueye is good right now because of FoJP. Without the cards we have now, the game becomes much slower.
  • The game already used Evolutions. They just aren't so hot as main attackers, and the ones that are are usually Stage 1 cards.
  • The Evolutions that do the best are the fast ones. This has happened multiple times in the past; the game doesn't slow and may even speed up. :(
  • We are also still getting many powerful Basic Pokémon, specifically stuff that seems to promote more speed.
  • Even the higher HP scores, which might otherwise slow down the pace of the game, are iffy because of more potent combos effectively escalating damage output.
The most important thing right now is that we don't know what we'll have by then. I really hope you are correct, but the way TPC is, I'm scared to make a joke about them reprinting Broken Time-Space because they really might. XP

(Which would mean Evolutions would see more play but as part of horribly broken messes that are even faster than the present >_<)
 
  • The game already used Evolutions. They just aren't so hot as main attackers, and the ones that are are usually Stage 1 cards.
  • The Evolutions that do the best are the fast ones. This has happened multiple times in the past; the game doesn't slow and may even speed up. :(
  • We are also still getting many powerful Basic Pokémon, specifically stuff that seems to promote more speed.
  • Even the higher HP scores, which might otherwise slow down the pace of the game, are iffy because of more potent combos effectively escalating damage output.
The most important thing right now is that we don't know what we'll have by then. I really hope you are correct, but the way TPC is, I'm scared to make a joke about them reprinting Broken Time-Space because they really might. XP

(Which would mean Evolutions would see more play but as part of horribly broken messes that are even faster than the present >_<)

I'm less adamant about what I felt before based on the cards being printed now. While a large amount of the Sun and Moon cards are used because of what exist now, they seem to be falling into the speed trap again. This is part of the reason I didn't like the mixing of BW era cards with XYs. Nothing changed except evolved Pokemon could not exist as Basic Pokemon and this change isn't even mechanical but style related.

Sun and Moon is fundamentally different just from design standpoint from what BW/XY were. now two Prize card Pokemon can be Basic, Stage 1 and Stage 2 Pokemon, HP is higher to compete with EX (which is a problem) and more powerful attacked moved on to GX attacks, which is the only "new" mechanic added to the game, meaning we shouldn't see things like Emerald Break, Psychic Infinity and Brilliant Arrow, this these would likely move to a once per game attack meaning things play out differently.

Early BW was Big basic with Stage 1 decks being strong. Mid BW went on to a solid 2HKO format, with Stage 1 decks still being strong but dark was powerful. Around the same time, Rayquaza EX did a thing and the game started to focus more on EX trades. Late BW Early XY was more of the same but with a larger focus on powerful Item cards and OHKOs. XY was more of the same but since XY existed so long with BW, the same card design carried over but just with Mega Evolution, but like normal, their start wasn't good. On paper it was good, but the game was too fast to give up a turn to Mega Evolve and now, XY just became a OHKO format. The problem here is at least three Sun and Moon sets will exist with the imbalance sets now, which could affect how cards are designed now. Just look at Aqua patch and what Dark Patch did and is still doing for dark decks.

We are even seeing the Pokemon-GX HP becoming EX level when they started much, much higher, just one set later. We even have a Pokemon-GX that does the things of three other Pokemon on one card so for the sake of balance, I want to see things change but it doesn't matter because they have to sell Sun and Moon cards in a format where BW and EX are much better and much more powerful (and sought after) versus a new card that requires three or four cards to get going. Its going to be hard to sell to the competitive player (though I understand most just collect and buy cards because why not). As a game designer I know what I would do but Pokemon doesn't seem to care as it seems they are often three or four metas behind. Look at Karen and Field Blower, which were WAY too late to the game. Even the new Oricorio is almost a whole era late when it could have been much better off against Night March and Miss Queen Bee.

I watched a interview of the developers of Hearthstone and he said they had to carefully design their card because if they design something imbalance or broken (using Broken Time Space and Forest of Giant Plants as an example) they wouldn't have been able to design better and or more interesting because those two cards would have prevented them from making them (Decidueye-GX and Vileplume) for the sake if balance in the game. This is why I have the unpopular opinion that the meta will rotate to Evolutions-On, because it removes N, Professor Sycamore, Max Elixir, Lycandre, the busted megas like M Rayquaza-EX and M Mewtwo-EX as well as other things toxic about the game like Vileplume for the less powerful options we have now in Sun and Moon base like Llima over N, Pokemon Catcher over Lysandre which means you have a chance of setting up a Pokemon once you're behind a few Prize cards and how our new draw seven effect will be tied to your GX attack useage.

The thing is me and you are from completely different eras (well the same era) of the game from what new players are and many of my friends let me know this. My friends even said if they do a rotation that deep, like they did before, they would likely quit the game because it would be too slow. When I tell them they did it before, they said it was because of Sableye, just one cards but I fail to understand what a block of cards in a new era of Pokemon won't do what one card did for a new era, since to me, BW/XY is just as incompatible with Sun and Moon as Sableye was to Heart Gold Soul Silver. To put this into prespective, HGSS wasn't even that bad going into BW because of how well it was designed.

I want to say SM can be good as a standalone but I fear that it existing with BW/XY cards (and the fact that Expanded is still a thing) SM will just end up being a BW/XY 2.0 block except you can evolve your "EX". SM has a chance to be good but I feel this won't happen by looking at cards like Aqua Patch being made and what Darkrai-GX will do for dark decks when Darkrai-EX is still in format with no real counter for the deck that has been a thing since Dark Explorers but we got to counter the birds with Zebstrika!
 
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Whoa really? Then who does? As in who designs the card game and new abilities and stuff, not who actually prints the cards.

To my knowledge, PCL or Nintendo actually makes the cards. Don't remember who off the top of my head. All TPCi does is localize and print the cards though a few times they have made sets or exclusive cards that Japan didn't get first. All the international branch does is localization for Pokemon products and distribution.
 
If they give the Battle Arena special prints an XY number then it would be reasonable to rotate it out if the rotation became SM on and they dropped the XY promos. Not saying it would. Personally I think Gen on is more likely this year. Maybe they'll even keep some XY promos in rotation once they move to SM on, but it's too early to tell.
 
To my knowledge, PCL or Nintendo actually makes the cards. Don't remember who off the top of my head. All TPCi does is localize and print the cards though a few times they have made sets or exclusive cards that Japan didn't get first. All the international branch does is localization for Pokemon products and distribution.
Oh cool, good to know. Cheers from a fellow Evo-On Rotation believer
 
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