Still gonna say that Leafeon is a nice tech for now, especially against Safeguarders.
Colorless M Rayquaza EX / Shaymin EX
- Thread starter Camoclone
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tbh, in a Rayquaza deck, Leafon won't seem too amazing. You generally rage through opposing decks with Rayquaza, limiting the amount of energy attached significantly. A much better counter would be Raichu; and even Beartic could do as much or more damage than Leafon in most circumstances XD
Once you're under ToadLock, Raichu and Beartic become... kinda moot. They don't hit weakness, and they don't really limit how much energy your opponent puts down. That, and they're dependant on factors that can be worked around; put down a Pokemon after one faints for Raichu, and I have never seen a Beartic in my days. Leafeon beats out Toad in both Energy, and threatens the entire field by limiting how much energy your opponent can put down.
I suggest not teching something just for Toad that would not be to great for other matchups, but I guess it could work.
Leafeon is decent for the revenge kill against a PGroudon player, as PGroudon will inevitably take down one MRayquaza unless you get lucky.
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It's not just for the Toad match-up (although it's a very dominant match-up, if they get set up first, you may be sunk). It pressures your opponent to not attach much energy; in my Donphan deck, if I knew my opponent had a way to completely stop my Primal Groudon, I wouldn't attach Energy as often as I do. It creates a sense of risk VS reward for your opponent, and if they have Grass weak Pokemon/Pokemon weak enough to be KO'd, they will play more carefully, giving you a bigger gap.
Leafeon sounds like a great idea...but it takes up a lot of space. A 1-1 line is inefficient, so it would have to be a 2-2 line. It must cut away from other crucial cards in the deck to have to fit it in. At the same time, it does improve the P Groudon, P Kyogre, and Toad matchup.
I'd say that IMHO it isn't needed as you already win the P Kyogre/Groudon match up.
Sure its helpful against toad, but I think that the deck still has a 50-50 chance against toad anyways.
I'd say that IMHO it isn't needed as you already win the P Kyogre/Groudon match up.
Sure its helpful against toad, but I think that the deck still has a 50-50 chance against toad anyways.
Not necessarily. I've played multiple matches where I picked up the Mega Ray KO with Primal Groudon, and they folded immediately since - once Groudon is set - it's very hard for the Mega Ray player to hold a comeback. Granted, I haven't ran into the Egg variants quite yet, however I've yet to see how Mega Ray is an autowin versus Groudon.
It does seem like PGroudon is the best match up we have so far, but you need to play a much more aggressive PGroudon set up than is traditional to truly beat MRayray.
If that's the way the meta shifts, that's how it shifts. You can already start playing aggressive by teching in a Mega Turbo, giving you two - three attaches depending on your build. Donphan builds won't see that tech, probably, but it's still a fairly viable play.
I very much disagree with this. Despite being able to quickly comeback with megaturbo now in format, Primal Groudon takes at least 2 if not 3 turns to set up.
Likewise, Mega Rayquazas can EASILY be set up in 1 turn. While it might not necessarily be doing OHKOes to all pokemon Turn 1, it should be at least OHKOing all 180 HP pokemon. Also, its harder to OHKO Mega Ray as it has resistance to Fighting, meaning your opponent will need at least 3 damage multipliers on one groudon to OHKO a mega ray (such as muscle band, strong energy, or fighting stadium). Mega Ray only needs 8 benched pokemon, which the deck runs more then enough of, 1 of the 4 skyfields, and 3 energy, which is easily set up with mega turbo and DCE.
I will say that the deck isn't Tier 0, AKA unbeatable. But some match ups it just beats 70-30 times.
That's why Groudon's paired with Donphan and/or Hawlucha; Donphan/Hawlucha slowly chips away at opposing actives, whittling them down so that Groudon can nab that knock out. Additionally, if Groudon gets Gaia Volcano off, the Stadium is discarded, whether it's Fighting Stadium or Skyfield. That 8 Bench goes down to 5, and - while the Eggs probably are out - that's still one Rayquaza dead, and your Bench is ripe for the Lysandre-ing the rest of the prizes via Shaymin, Eggs, or what have you.
That 70 - 30 ratio isn't accurate; while Donphan/Groudon doesn't have the best match-up, it's more 55:45 in favor of Mega Ray.
But what is there to whittle away at when one deck is pumping out OHKOs each turn and your opponent is slowly doing 40/60 damage each turn? Sure, eventually you'll get up a Primal Groudon, but whats stopping the Rayquaza player from having 3 Mega Rayquazas set up in that time? In addition, most Donphan decks only run a 1-1 Primal Groudon. If it gets KOed, prized, or discarded then you'll have to resort to doing minimal damage with donphans.
Also, the skyfield part is really irrelevant. 1st, you run 4 skyfield, if it gets discarded you'll easily get up another, and if not you can LTC and use set up to draw into one most likely. 2nd, with an active being discarded, you are only going to have to discard 2 eggs or 1 egg and 1 shaymin EX; it's not that big of a deal. Lastly, the lysandre thing is also irrelevant because no matter what bench side the Rayquaza player has, it will most likely have an Egg, Mr. mime, or a Shaymin EX (easy targets), whether skyfield is in play or not. And unless if its the last prize of the game, I'd surely allow my opponent to attack an easy KO like Shaymin over my Rayquazas.
Many versions also run Ninetails, which greatly improves the match. Your opponent will want to kill it (creating a 7-prize rule situation), it will lock a skyfield in play, and will only allow for 1 massive Gaia volcano to take place. And if you discard the ninetails you can play back down the stadium for a surprise OHKO to the Primal.
I am sticking with 70-30 for the match up based on testing.
Alright, point made; not like Donphan's going to stay in format long enough for it to affect Mega Ray very much.
I've had something on my mind and it's something I'd like to discuss with you all and that is the supporter Winona. At first I was impressed with her seeing her as a staple to the deck at 3 even 4 copies but the more I play with her the more I find her unecessary. Taking up the crucial supporter for the turn just to fetch a Quaza/Shaymin is so incredibly subpar especially when considering any other draw supporter can fetch you that or any of the 4 Ultra Balls this deck should be running. It just feels like a waste playing her especially considering if you don't start with her she just gets worse later on. What are you guys' thoughts?
I built a version on bebe's search, but I took a different road and went with all colorless, taking advantage of Winona and Altaria. I think the only thing that's needed are some non EX attackers. I used Bouffalant (Primal Clash), Regigigas (Phantom Forces), and Skarmory (Roaring Skies). Skarmory seems like a good fit since odds are, there will be a stadium in play and the call for family attacks can help fill up the bench in a pinch. There's also Tornadus LT which can conserve energy while attacking.
I like the idea of Leafeon as a Safeguard/P Groudon/P Kyogre/Seismitoad counter; running Energy Evolution Eevee makes it easy to set up under Toad Lock, and is searchable by Winona (if you run Winona), so it can warm the bench as well. Alternatively I want to test a variant running Empoleon/Exeggcute. Another option is Plasma Blast Tropius with Return.
How splashable is Seismitoad EX in this deck? I was considering running it as a one off, but I wasn't sure.