Discussion Does Dragon Need a Basic Energy Type?

[MorningSTAR1337]

Okay first off a bit of a History lesson. Late into the BW era, Dragon was introduced as a type. The gimmick behind this was that they had no energy of their own, but instead needed energy from other types (Akin to Crystal Pokemon IIRC). A lot of them tended to be very powerful but also have very expensive attacks.

That changed when a card was made to aid dragons. A Special Energy that merged Rainbow and DCE together but locked it to dragon types (and removed the damage), that was called Double Dragon Energy. The catch, while DCE and Rainbow are among of the few that is unlikely to be rotated out, ever, DDE is at risk. And With it Dragon-types are at risk of being considered Awesome but Impractical.

Making it a basic energy would introduce a few new benefits:

• First off would be that it no longer has a reason to leach from other types. Or at least not as much. But would instead have a unified source of energy (since Basic also doubles as colorless as well as their depicted type).
• It would also unlimit them as basic energy has no limit while SPecial energy is beholden to the same 4 copy limit (and DDE is a special energy)
• it would allow more synergy with each other as opposed to those that happened to shared a type with the energy they needed.
• Basic energy are also on the list of cards to never rotate out because they are a core part of the game-play.

For this reason I want to ask if you think Dragon needs a basic energy of its own?

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

They do need their own basic Energy but they need to also reduce the power of the they as a whole if they do that. I personally think Fairy didn't need its own Energy.

 

[Pikachu6319]

Okay first off a bit of a History lesson. Late into the BW era, Dragon was introduced as a type. The gimmick behind this was that they had no energy of their own, but instead needed energy from other types (Akin to Crystal Pokemon IIRC). A lot of them tended to be very powerful but also have very expensive attacks.

Slight edit on your history here. The first Pokémon to need multiple types of energy was actually the Shining Pokémon of the Neo series. This was followed by Crystal Pokémon and later Star Pokémon.

They do need their own basic Energy but they need to also reduce the power of the they as a whole if they do that. I personally think Fairy didn't need its own Energy.

I agree with you that they should have their own energy, any Pokémon type that becomes it's own type in the card game should have it's own energy. As for power reduction I don't know about that one, I don't see them as any more powerful than other types. Because of this reasoning however I would disagree with your belief that fairy didn't need it's own energy.

 

[RiverShock]

No, they don't need their own basic energy. It would make the type even more pointless than it already is. At least this way they can fit into decks that use other types of energy. Keep in mind nothing is weak to Dragon, so it's just a worse Colorless gameplay-wise. (I still disagree strongly with their decision to do this. They should've left Dragon weak to Dragon and made Darkness weak to Fairy instead since we already had multiple types weak to Fighting anyway.) Also, really, Dragons have used other energy types for longer than Dragon's even BEEN a type in the TCG. Many of the Colorless Dragons also did this during the EX and DP eras.

The problem is that we need more support for the Dragon type. Double Dragon Energy, Reshiram and Hydreigon-EX being the only Standard support is dumb.

 

[CMP]

While I don't play in the current meta, I enjoy the way Dragon-types are now; by requiring other types of Energy to attack, they provide a nice foil to Colorless Pokémon (of which the vast majority can use any type of Energy).

I think that Fairy may have been cooler if they introduced it as a Special Energy first, as Metal and Darkness were upon their release in the Neo series. Although there were a lot more Fairies introduced/retconned than either of those types, so it wouldn't have been as practical (nor as easy to market).

 

[solarbeam]

I feel like Double Dragon Energy plus Double Colorless Energy allows Dragon types to set up much faster than they would if they would have to play one basic Energy at a time.

 

[taschen88]

No, they don't need their own basic energy. It would make the type even more pointless than it already is. At least this way they can fit into decks that use other types of energy. Keep in mind nothing is weak to Dragon, so it's just a worse Colorless gameplay-wise. (I still disagree strongly with their decision to do this. They should've left Dragon weak to Dragon and made Darkness weak to Fairy instead since , we already had multiple types weak to Fighting anyway.) Also, really, Dragons have used other energy types for longer than Dragon's even BEEN a type in the TCG. Many of the Colorless Dragons also did this during the EX and DP eras.

The problem is that we need more support for the Dragon type. Double Dragon Energy, Reshiram and Hydreigon-EX being the only Standard support is dumb.

I totally agree.

Nothing is weak to Dragon anymore since Fairy has been added in XY. Dragon should still be weak to Dragon because if it still were, I think more people could add Dragon to their decks (just like they do with Colorless, but more Energy-specific). And yes, the "Normal" Colorless Pokemon are weak to Fighting, and almost all Lightning types are weak to them, too (barring Zapdos, Emolga, Tapu Koko GX) - Fairy would've been more relevant if it were super effective against Dark, since Dark is way more commonly used compared to Dragon.

With the new SM era stadium cards that benefit 2 types instead of 1, namely: Altar of the Sunne (Fire/Fighting), Altar of the Moone (Pychic/Dark), Brooklet Hill (Fighting/Water), and Aether Conservatory (Lightning/Grass)... Hopefully, the next one will be for Fairy/Dragon? Maybe it'll have Energy acceleration, such as "Each player may attach 2 Basic Energy instead of 1 to their Basic Fairy or Dragon Pokemon." Limiting to Basic, as after the next rotation Standard will be much more of an evolution-oriented format. Hrmmm Colorless ought to have one, too.

Maybe there's going to be something similar to Dark Claw from BW Dark Explorers? Dragon Fang for extra damage, anyone? How about Dragon Scale for damage reduction?

 

[D2B2WIN1]

Dragons needs an accelerator that is specific to its own type without a specific Energy requirement. A Reshiram without the Fire Energy requirement or a Vikavolt-esque effect only for Dragons would be a good start without DDE reprint. While something like Dragon Wish Dragonair could alleviate those costs, it is a band-aid solution to a larger problem. DDE is meant to make Dragons remotely playable in their niche-role as well as making fun Dragon decks viable.

On a design note, they probably made the Dragon type to make Colorless confusing will creating a new marketing opportunity for causal consumers. Visually, Colorless Dragons looked like a mess; two Energy colors, unusual Weaknesses, 3 attacks. With the Dragon type, you can easily identify: It is going to be a cool looking card but have an unusual/horrible attack cost. Most of the Dragons, outside of a select few, are meant to promote the next TCG set. They can and will print viable Dragons (Noivern-GX, Latios-EX, Giratina-EX, Salamence-EX, etc.) but, they will make more popular, not-so-playable Dragons.

 

[MorningSTAR1337]

Maybe there's going to be something similar to Dark Claw from BW Dark Explorers? Dragon Fang for extra damage, anyone? How about Dragon Scale for damage reduction?

Well Water types already took a concept from Dark-types already

On a design note, they probably made the Dragon type to make Colorless confusing will creating a new marketing opportunity for causal consumers. Visually, Colorless Dragons looked like a mess; two Energy colors, unusual Weaknesses, 3 attacks. With the Dragon type, you can easily identify: It is going to be a cool looking card but have an unusual/horrible attack cost. Most of the Dragons, outside of a select few, are meant to promote the next TCG set. They can and will print viable Dragons (Noivern-GX, Latios-EX, Giratina-EX, Salamence-EX, etc.) but, they will make more popular, not-so-playable Dragons.

From a weakness standpoint, I feel like they have a long way to go from that since there is still a type that colorless covers with a Water (Ice) weakness. Flying, then again I think that part of Dragon's predicament was that they are suppose to be like Charizard, but applied to a type. Not usually meant to be viable, but more to appeal to casuals like you said. I feel that (and marketing) is more of a factor then trying to make types less confusing (Especially since Psychic and Fighting also have similar cases to Colorless and ones that leave them weak to their own type at that.)

 

[taschen88]

Well Water types already took a concept from Dark-types already

Lol, true with Aqua Patch as Energy acceleration via discard pile. Speaking of Water, I'm glad the majority them are weak to Grass again instead of Lightning.
That said, I think Dark can shift its weakness to Fairy eventually. Let Dragons rumble with Dragons!!!

I hope Dragons will be great again someday. Majority of them are sadly just not playable enough.

 

[Pikachu6319]

I feel like Double Dragon Energy plus Double Colorless Energy allows Dragon types to set up much faster than they would if they would have to play one basic Energy at a time.

Then they best reprint Double Dragon Energy very soon here because Roaring Skies is likely one of the sets rotated out of standard in (I think) September, and that would hurt their useability.

I think that Fairy may have been cooler if they introduced it as a Special Energy first, as Metal and Darkness were upon their release in the Neo series. Although there were a lot more Fairies introduced/retconned than either of those types, so it wouldn't have been as practical (nor as easy to market).

Um, no. Ever tried to play a darkness or steel deck in the Neo eras? Pretty hard to do as I tried to do one of each deck and it basically meant it was fire with a splash of darkness and fighting/grass with a splash of steel. Though yes you are right that more fairies were introduced/retconned in. When dark first came out there was no retcon and when steel came out only Magnemite/Magenton were impacted and it took a couple generations to have a decent amount of the two types.

 

[Dalton]

We could solve the dragon issue with some good dragon support cards.

Dragon Claw (tool)
The attacks of the Dragon Pokémon this card is attached to do 40 more damage to your opponent's active Pokémon.

Sky Pillar (stadium)
(Dragon type Forest of Giant Plants)

Zinnia (supporter)
Search your deck for 2 basic Energy cards and attach them to your Dragon Pokémon in any way you like.



Don't get on me since I didn't do the wording right.

 

[taschen88]

Then they best reprint Double Dragon Energy very soon here because Roaring Skies is likely one of the sets rotated out of standard in (I think) September, and that would hurt their usability.



Um, no. Ever tried to play a darkness or steel deck in the Neo eras? Pretty hard to do as I tried to do one of each deck and it basically meant it was fire with a splash of darkness and fighting/grass with a splash of steel. Though yes you are right that more fairies were introduced/retconned in. When dark first came out there was no retcon and when steel came out only Magnemite/Magenton were impacted and it took a couple generations to have a decent amount of the two types.

Ah, memories!! <3

I had physical cards back in the day, from the original Base Set onwards. I remember playing those decks with "Oh, look at my fancy deck 'with a splash' of Dark because Umbreon/Houndoom!!" And risking having to lose just because I have to setup for Steelix, so I can brag about having one, lol. To be fair, there was no restriction on what we call 'Supporter' cards nowadays; also, Computer Search didn't have that AceSpec one-off rule. With that said, I think today's limitations of Supporters (and Comp Search being available in Expanded/Legacy only as a one-off), it'll be harder to make it work had they initially introduced Fairy the way they did with Darkness and Metal.

I just hope for better Dragon type Synergy again; the last time Dragon worked really well was Fluffy-Chomp (Altaria-Garchomp) from the BW Dragons Exalted set. Something like that needs to happen again, soon.

 

[MorningSTAR1337]

Well, if not a basic energy, then Dragon might need the following:

• DDE reprint.
• Pokemon with abilities that benefit Dragons (examples being Promo Lurantis and Vikavolt)
• Trainer cards (now that I think of it. Why did they not print Zinnia and Lisia cards?) that also benefit dragons.
• The last thing they might need would be synergy with other dragons and whatever types they leech the energy from. Like the 2nd point, but extended to other pokemon (Promo Lurantis is the example again since they also buff Fire-type attacks). Less parasites, more symbioses more or less.

 

[Crizor]

Zinnia (supporter)
Search your deck for 2 basic Energy cards and attach them to your Dragon Pokémon in any way you like.

How does Pokemon print sets after a region focused one? As in after we get out of Sun and Moon, do they just do a random theme or focus on another region? Would be cool to see RSE again since ORAS didn't seem to get a focus on it.

 

[Perfect_Shot]

A Basic Energy type would be cool, but as said from others the type needs more support first.

I find it disappointing that while Fairy had plenty of strong support in the first set of it's release (even if it didn't have a strong attacker at that point) and got progressively better afterwards, Dragon with or without DDE still doesn't have anywhere near as good support cards. The old Garchomp deck was interesting and Gabite was cool, but it was nothing more than a rogue.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

What kind of support do people want that other cards don't already do? It seems like other want to break the type considering it's already a "broken" type balanced by the lack of acceleration for them.

We have plenty of cards that will grab Pokmon and get them into play and search for things and believe it or not, dragons have a ton of support in expanded but it is okay if the dragon type doesn't have DDE. You can play them without it, like you can play Grass types without FoGP.

 

[RiverShock]

How does Pokemon print sets after a region focused one? As in after we get out of Sun and Moon, do they just do a random theme or focus on another region? Would be cool to see RSE again since ORAS didn't seem to get a focus on it.

Usually only with a new game (EX: FireRed & LeafGreen, Primal Clash and the like), though EX: Unseen Forces was a Johto-themed set out of nowhere, and we've had a few TYPE-themed sets over the years as well, like Dark Explorers or Roaring Skies.

 

[MorningSTAR1337]

How does Pokemon print sets after a region focused one? As in after we get out of Sun and Moon, do they just do a random theme or focus on another region? Would be cool to see RSE again since ORAS didn't seem to get a focus on it.

I think it tends to be a thematic Japanese deck more often than not. (Misty's Determination while fitting for Evolutions, first came in a PalkiaEX/Golduck BREAk deck and imported in Steam Siege. Lass's special, based on the universal Lass class but with the art using the XY design, appeared in the Japanese M-Audino/Diancie deck and was likewise place in Fates Collide). The former had a Water-type theme and the latter had a Fairy-type theme, so if we're going that route, Dragons or Raquayza would be Zinnia's best shot (And for the former she'd still have to compete with Lance, Drake, Drasna, Drayden, Iris and Ryuki)

Evolutions (I assume it to be your point of reference for the last part of the post) was a special case, one of two Anniversary themed packs and modeled after the original Base Set. Pretty unlikely to happen again unless they make such throwback packs a thing (in which case, I'd expect them to do Johto-based E-reader cards next if they were to hearken back to the generation's formats). Its currently improbably right now.

What kind of support do people want that other cards don't already do? It seems like other want to break the type considering it's already a "broken" type balanced by the lack of acceleration for them.

We have plenty of cards that will grab Pokmon and get them into play and search for things and believe it or not, dragons have a ton of support in expanded but it is okay if the dragon type doesn't have DDE. You can play them without it, like you can play Grass types without FoGP.

I think its a matter of competitiveness. Yes you "can" technically play Dragons in Standard but the question is, why would you want to if other types help you win faster. As I mentioned in the OP, Dragons are at risk of being Awesome but Impractical, using them would be akin to using Charizard most of the time.

At the same time, given the way they work I wonder if they weren't meant to function as its own deck like other types, but rather to supplement existing types like Colorless. As a type without a basic energy, they might theoretically fit better as techs to decks using the same types. Like say, using Dragonite in Lurantis, Decidueye or Vikavolt decks for example. For unlike say, Diancie who needs an energy of her native Fairy-type or Tapu Lele, Promo Lurantis and Shaymin who are there for abilities instead of attacking, Dragon types lack of a basic energy and requirement for other types might be intended to make them fit better with other types.

If that is the case, the the problem is still parasitical, as the pokemon whose abilities and attacks work based on energy rather than the pokemon's type themselves are few and far between and non-dragon cards that support dragons don't exist, while you are spending turns and energy charging up a dragon's attack (which can take 3 turns minimum, and only if you have DCE on hand) instead of getting energy to pokemon that might need less and can thus attack earlier. The energy requirement introduces an opportunity cost that most tournament players don't think is worth it, again, like most Charizard cards). Thoguh at least Vikavolt can help Zekrom, Raquayza and Dragonite.

 

[GrandPanacea]

They do need their own basic Energy but they need to also reduce the power of the they as a whole if they do that. I personally think Fairy didn't need its own Energy.

I really don't understand your line of thinking here. Dragon was added at a weird time. That's fine. But Fairy was added in the generation that it was introduced in the games. Should Dragon have been introduced with its own basic? I'd say yeah, sure. DDE is a pain. But in a sense, it mimics how Dragon types used Energy back when they were Colorless, to a degree. But Fairy never did that. Besides, it's not like Fairy is the be-all-end-all type. It doesn't have a Patch card. It's not ridiculously omnipresent.

So, like I said, I don't really understand where you're comin' from.