EXs: Ruining the Game?

[Riskbreakers]

RE: EX's: Ruining the Game?

I think the format is fairly balanced across the board. The bummer is that we have a fairly small board of choices of cards that are actually good. Imagine how much fun the game would be if we got 100 new cards that were actually playable each set. Players could actually build their own decks. Now deckbuilding is just a fancy word for picking a meta deck, testing it out to find perfect card counts and techs and thats it. I think it would be cool If rougues stood a chance as it would open up tons of room for creativity.

Deckbuilding is now slapping random EXs with catcher and hope it works which it actually does 90% of the time

 

[Slowbro]

RE: EX's: Ruining the Game?

They need to bring back Machamp Stormfront as a Stage 2 EX and Broken Time Space. Format = balanced

I don't think so. Just imagine what the game would be like if Hydreigon, Blastoise, or any other supporting stage two could be powered up T1. Also Garchomp would be kind of OP.

 

[Mora]

RE: EX's: Ruining the Game?

They need to bring back Machamp Stormfront as a Stage 2 EX and Broken Time Space. Format = balanced

I don't think so. Just imagine what the game would be like if Hydreigon, Blastoise, or any other supporting stage two could be powered up T1. Also Garchomp would be kind of OP.

I intended for there to be a hint of sarcasm

 

[Dork Void]

RE: EX's: Ruining the Game?

I don't think so. Just imagine what the game would be like if Hydreigon, Blastoise, or any other supporting stage two could be powered up T1. Also Garchomp would be kind of OP.

I intended for there to be a hint of sarcasm

You're going to have to work more than that if you want people to get sarcasm over the internet....especially because a lot of people seem to think that non-sarcastically nowadays.

 

[The Fallen One]

RE: EX's: Ruining the Game?

Here are the problems.

-Stage 2 Cards right now are overpowered when paired up with their respective big basics.
-Catcher neutralizes said Stage 2 cards.
-Big basics abuse Catcher to make game faster by KOing their fellow big basics.
-N makes these rush type games turn into sack-fests.

Conclusion? Too much power creep is killing Pokemon. It's like YGO with a different banlist. While the Stage 2s are indeed overpowered, big basics and their support cards neutralize them but it is a bit too much. Removing stuff like Skyarrow Bridge, Eviolite and vital pieces to certain decks such as Sableye or Dark Patch helps. As Blah implies, it's one mishap after one mishap after another which ends up snowballing into one big problem which we can call the BW-on format.

This.

Old EX format wasn't nearly this bad, and that had DRE in it. Of course, the largest I ever saw a pokemon's HP get to back then was 160 (200 if you count Wailord), and that was on Stage 2 EX's like Tyranitar. Now we have basic pokemon with 180 HP and no real easy way to take them down outside of using other ridiculous EX pokemon.

One of the big issues is that there ARE some powerful Stage 2 pokemon, but most of them require ungodly energy amounts to really work. When Plasma Gale comes along, that might help a bit. Skyla and Ditto also make getting Stage 1 and Stage 2 pokemon out a lot more easily.

But with this INTENTIONAL throwing in of a power creep, I don't think the game will ever go to a state of balance like there was in Gen 3. At least, that's my opinion.

 

[Machamp The Champion]

RE: EX's: Ruining the Game?

When Plasma Gale comes along, that might help a bit.

Plasma Storm will just make things worse, turn 1 Lugia EX's will destroy anything that isn't lightning or a big EX. Other stupid turn 1 crap comes around with Colress Machine+Plasma Badge.

 

[The Fallen One]

RE: EX's: Ruining the Game?

When Plasma Gale comes along, that might help a bit.

Plasma Storm will just make things worse, turn 1 Lugia EX's will destroy anything that isn't lightning or a big EX. Other stupid turn 1 crap comes around with Colress Machine+Plasma Badge.

I'm aware that the set will be called Plasma Storm in the US. However, in its current incarnation it is known as Plasma Gale, and I will call it as such until we know what cards will be in its US release.

People are hyping T1 Lugia EX so much it's become dull. Boring. Your'e really going to invest all of your creative energies trying to make a Lugia rush deck? There's so much more potential to this set, namely in a number of the Stage 2 cards. I think we'll see more non-ex decks when the set comes to here. Just my thought.

 

[G3rm]

RE: EX's: Ruining the Game?

I believe the concept of ex's is great, but not when its a basic that you can search out with almost anything, and that has a ton of cards that make it more powerful (skyarrow, Prism, dark patch...). Back when the first set of ex's came out, there was REAL balance, and actual strategy as well, you actually needed a support pokemon to set up your field and ex pokemon, an example that I can think of is Rayquaza ex/ Blaziken-firestarter. Even then, decks like Gardevoir from ex R/S were still viable and weren't outrun by a fast speed deck. Granted I was a kid back then, but I really don't remember any Donk decks or all out rush decks that were terrible prominent.

Right now, if you look at the top decks placing right now, the decks placing the best at cities are the Landorus ex and friends decks, that don't run any evolutions. The reasoning for this is because decks with evolutions just can't keep up with the damage output from turn one. There definitely are some stage two decks that could definitely do well in this format, but they can keep up with the speed of ex's. Another problem is ex's are the ones with the highest damage cap (if they have one at all). So I don't think its fair to say its a "balanced" for all types of decks at the moment. Granted there are a lot of variants making top cut right now, But basically every single one is running an ex of some sort. Why? because they are so over powered and fast.

Another think to look at and compare is our current cities format compared to last year... If that doesn't show a drastic change idk what will...

 

[antidakoda]

RE: EX's: Ruining the Game?

I come from playing Magic the Gathering, and the rule with MTG is that anything that warps the format ruins the game. The thing that comes to mind here is Mewtwo ex. It's similar to a card named "Jace the Mindsculptor" (or Muthaf**kin Jace). Jace HAD to be played. Literally EVERY deck dipped into blue to play that card. Out of the Top 8 at every big event we had at minimum 7/8 had MF Jace. Because he was STUPID broken. Mewtwo EX, was great because you don't even need to dip into psy energy to make him good (i'm new to PTCG so i might be wrong). He literally warped the format. Maybe not so much now, but at the time, Mewtwo EX NERF PLZ.

That being said i think that EX's are not COMPLETELY ruining the game, but rather there's no counterplay to them other than to use other EX's. I want to play a Scizor deck. But Scizor alone can't do anything. Sure i could go into Buffalo pokemon (forgot his name), but that's not enough. New eeveelutions look promising to help kinda. There just needs to be more counterplay other than going "K U GOT DARKRAI EX I USE LANDORUS EX". That's not counterplay. Thats countering stupid strong cards with OTHER stupid strong cards.

 

[pokedan24]

RE: EX's: Ruining the Game?

I believe the concept of ex's is great, but not when its a basic that you can search out with almost anything, and that has a ton of cards that make it more powerful (skyarrow, Prism, dark patch...). Back when the first set of ex's came out, there was REAL balance, and actual strategy as well, you actually needed a support pokemon to set up your field and ex pokemon, an example that I can think of is Rayquaza ex/ Blaziken-firestarter. Even then, decks like Gardevoir from ex R/S were still viable and weren't outrun by a fast speed deck. Granted I was a kid back then, but I really don't remember any Donk decks or all out rush decks that were terrible prominent.

Right now, if you look at the top decks placing right now, the decks placing the best at cities are the Landorus ex and friends decks, that don't run any evolutions. The reasoning for this is because decks with evolutions just can't keep up with the damage output from turn one. There definitely are some stage two decks that could definitely do well in this format, but they can keep up with the speed of ex's. Another problem is ex's are the ones with the highest damage cap (if they have one at all). So I don't think its fair to say its a "balanced" for all types of decks at the moment. Granted there are a lot of variants making top cut right now, But basically every single one is running an ex of some sort. Why? because they are so over powered and fast.

Another think to look at and compare is our current cities format compared to last year... If that doesn't show a drastic change idk what will...

This is what I was trying to say early on. It's bad enough that EXs are ridiculously overpowered, but they get even more advantages just by being basics. Yeah some stage 2s have some game breaking powers, but a lot of what makes them game breaking are how they combo with EXs (blastoise/keldeo, hydreigon/darkrai). So even if you do play those stage 2s, you're still going to need EXs to use them to their full potential. And if you're a stage 2 without a game breaking power, you won't even be given a second look.

Basically, EXs have set made most of the cards you'll pull completely useless.

 

[Dork Void]

RE: EX's: Ruining the Game?

Most of the cards you'll pull have always been useless. Don't blame EXes for the most obvious tcg marketing strategy around.

I agree that this format sucks because the EXes and a few extremely powerful non-EX basics (Terrakion, a little while ago regular Zekrom and Tornadus, etc.) There are so few decks that can use attackers besides the high HP basics (EX or not) and even the ones that do generally tech a bunch of the high hp basics (I'm looking at you, Empoleon/Terrakion). The format has changed from a balance between attackers (where stage 1/2s were less consistent but more powerful than basics, a fair trade and a good way to make it imo) to basics are the only viable attackers in most scenarios and stage 1/2 pokemon are relegated to bench-sitters. However, with the brute force of basics being capable of killing even bench-sitting stage 1s and 2s with the not-so-minor assistance of Pokemon Catcher, even the stage 1/2s have had to have a huge power ramp to stay relevant even in the form they exist in.

I guess the conclusion I'm trying to make is that this isn't so much a different format as it is a different game entirely. We don't have a game where brute force and numbers (damage, health) goes up when consistency goes down, we have a game where control goes up as consistency goes down (control being of the board, of damage, of your opponent's choices, your choices, etc.), and this is not the game Pokemon enthusiasts have been playing the past few years. One style cannot be considered immediately better or worse than another; rather its like comparing other card games such as Magic the Gathering to Yugioh. Each will attract their own fan base due to different playstyles. The problem with the new Pokemon game is that it is built off of the old one in such a way that all of the fans who've been playing the game are left supporting something due to loyalty to a brand when the game does not actually fit their playstyle any more, and newer players are understanding this as that the old formats were better and more fun, period, as opposed to simply appealing to a different crowd.

Rereading my post I find that my conclusion is rather different from what I started out saying. I suppose I changed my own mind by thinking enough about the topic to write this post.

 

[Azurial]

RE: EX's: Ruining the Game?

So, I have read through this whole thread and I see a ton of people blaming Pokémon EX, and just as many blaming Trainers.

I would like to go out on a limb and say that the BIGGEST issue to Pokémon is TYPE-WEAKNESS. As suggested in almost ALL posts, especially the ones where comments like Terrakion beats out Darkrai and so on are made, It comes down to Type.

Shaymin EX tears apart Keldeo based decks as a tech simply because it OHKO because of weakness after the first/second prize is taken. Is this to say that it's Shaymins Fault for being OP in that instance? Or do we blame Pokemon Catcher for being able to force that Prize active?

I think we need to examine the real problem. In past formats Pokémon had -20, -30, -50 Resistances, had +X weakness and so on. This made formats like SP fair, simply due to the fact that it wasn't a Counter race, not completely any way.

My idea, stop making weakness based solely on what the Card type is (i.e. Mew has a Psychic weakness because it is Psychic) and make a Pokémon weak to the individual attack cost, much like in the Video Games.

I really do not see how confusing that is, since you'd just be transferring over what you know from your DS/GB/ect., because, let's face it, most TCG players have at one point played the Video games. Even casual Pokémon Video game players know that you bring versatile, multi-type attacks to a gym (I.E. A Fire Type Pokémon at a Normal Type Gym that can learn Fighting Moves).

 

[Celebi23]

RE: EX's: Ruining the Game?

^I'm not sure if you played back in the last HS-on format (I'm assuming you're a fairly new or returning player since you think Pokémon have had -50 resistances and that SP had +X weaknesses), but Darkrai would have dominated the game if it wasn't for its weaknesses. While weaknesses are certainly unbalancing specific matchups, they keep broken cards balanced because anything can be countered through weakness.

The real issue lies in cards being overpowered. If Darkrai wasn't so good, it wouldn't need Terrakion to keep it balanced. And if cards only did 50-70 damage, weakness wouldn't hurt as badly. Furthermore, if there was better search and special energy, players could use multiple Energy types to counter their deck's weakness.

The original ex formats are considered some of the best the game has seen, and every card back then had x2 weakness.

 

[The Fallen One]

RE: EX's: Ruining the Game?

The original ex formats are considered some of the best the game has seen, and every card back then had x2 weakness.

This, but there are several key differences between the ex's of yesteryear and the EX's of today.

1) Gen 3 ex's had at most 160 HP

This excludes Wailord, of course.

Back before the DP era, the most HP you saw on a regular pokemon was 120, and 160 for Stage 2 ex's. Basic ex's rarely broke 110 HP, and 110 HP was actually considered very good and safe.

If you used a Stage 2 ex, you typically packed a huge punch in your attacks. However, many of them with higher utility and power also had a double weakness. For example, Typhlosion ex from Unseen Forces.

2) Many, many more cards that either were ex-hating or excluded ex's

Safeguard was a very common poke-body to have. Heck, even Dustox ex had Safeguard, making it a very potent card (Also, note the double weakness it had). This meant you had a lot of options for walling off ex-based decks.

Oh, and there were a lot more cards that had attacks that did more damage or gained special effects if there were any ex cards on your opponent's side of the field.

But a lot of trainers excluded Pokemon ex, for good or for ill. Most search cards often said "excluding Pokemon-ex." Many effects from stadiums, like Glacia's Stadium, also excluded their benefits from ex's. No tools from that era could even be attached to ex's, so you had to run pokemon besides pokemon-ex so you could use game-changing cards like Cessation Crystal.

3) There were more pokemon in the format that could trade blows with ex's

The #1 thing I've noticed coming back into the game is that there are only a handful of good non-ex cards. The only decent non-ex deck I know of is Empoleon/Accelgor, and it's not even considered that great of a deck! I'm excluding Quad Sigilyph, since that deck is specifically made to counter EX decks of today.

The lack of decent non-ex cards that can keep up in this format is staggering. I am normally a rogue player, I normally play decks that have cards that I feel are fun to play...but it's a lot more fun when rogues have a chance to win. I went 4-4 at my first Nationals with a Mightyena LA/Darkrai Lv. X deck, and if I hadn't made a stupid last-minute tech I'd have done a lot better. I can't pull off anything like that anymore because of the way this format is.

TL;DR: The old ex format had a lot more key balances to it, such as a lower power curve, a higher prominence of cards that either ex's couldn't use or countered ex's, and there's a lower prominence of cards that can actually trade with ex's that aren't Bouffalant and Sigilyph.

 

[Celebi23]

RE: EX's: Ruining the Game?

Sorry, I'm confused... Was that in response to my post? I did not mean to say that this format is balanced or that the current EX's are good for the game, or even that the current EX's resemble the old EX's. Heck, I wasn't even directly mentioning old ex's; I was just pointing out that cards in general in that time period had x2 weaknesses. I'm fully aware of everything you stated.

 

[The Fallen One]

RE: EX's: Ruining the Game?

Sorry, I'm confused... Was that in response to my post? I did not mean to say that this format is balanced or that the current EX's are good for the game, or even that the current EX's resemble the old EX's. Heck, I wasn't even directly mentioning old ex's; I was just pointing out that cards in general in that time period had x2 weaknesses. I'm fully aware of everything you stated.

It was a pseudo-response.

More of a rant.

I really hate the new format compared to Gen 3. xD

 

[NoDice]

RE: EX's: Ruining the Game?

As far as weaknesses goes, I think that all basics with 100+ HP should have X2 weakness. Period. However, I believe that evolving basics as well as their evolutions should sit around a +10 to +50 range depending on the strength of the card. Perhaps Pokemon with abilities would lie at the higher end of that range(ex: Squirtle BCR, Munna BCR have +20 due to ability, while Rattata would have only +10), and Stage 1's and 2's would have +30 to 50 depending on ability, HP and attack strength. Of course, doing all this would probably require alot more forethought on Japan's TCG department than what they are currently giving us in terms of type balance, but I think it would all in all be very good for the game.

Resistance should, in theory work in the same manner as weakness, but have a lower threshold at 10- MAYBE 40 at most, and ALL Pokemon should have some sort of resistance- except for standard "Normal" types from the game.

 

[pokedan24]

RE: EX's: Ruining the Game?

The #1 thing I've noticed coming back into the game is that there are only a handful of good non-ex cards. The only decent non-ex deck I know of is Empoleon/Accelgor, and it's not even considered that great of a deck! I'm excluding Quad Sigilyph, since that deck is specifically made to counter EX decks of today.

The lack of decent non-ex cards that can keep up in this format is staggering. I am normally a rogue player, I normally play decks that have cards that I feel are fun to play...but it's a lot more fun when rogues have a chance to win. I went 4-4 at my first Nationals with a Mightyena LA/Darkrai Lv. X deck, and if I hadn't made a stupid last-minute tech I'd have done a lot better. I can't pull off anything like that anymore because of the way this format is.

TL;DR: The old ex format had a lot more key balances to it, such as a lower power curve, a higher prominence of cards that either ex's couldn't use or countered ex's, and there's a lower prominence of cards that can actually trade with ex's that aren't Bouffalant and Sigilyph.

It's not so much that non ex are bad, it's the EXs are so ridiculously overpowered that there's no reason to play any non EX. Take garchomp from dragons exalted. It had so much stuff going for it. Good attacks, cheap energy costs, and amazing support in the form of gabite and alteria. In fact, the whole dragon archetype was a pretty cool idea. It should have seen a lot of play, and it did at first...

But then people realized that there was no need to have such a complicated set up when EXs could be played hassle free. Just plop down mewtwo and a DCE and you're set. The only reason not to play mewtwo because the opponent might have one to counter. Even if you do get stage 2s out, you're still weaker than EXs. The best stage 2s have 150HP while EXs go up to 180. Even with the two prize drawback, 180HP on a basic is just stupid. Combined with such huge attacks, there is no reason to make a deck around non EXs (even blastoise is only used to power up Keldeo). EXs are not only the main attackers, but they often have broken abilities (darkrai I'm looking at you).

I wouldn't say EXs have ruined the game, but they've made it frusturating since any new deck idea needs these EXs to be able to do anything. There may be a few exceptions, but for the most part, anything that's not an EX is considered useless.

 

[Mora]

RE: EX's: Ruining the Game?

As far as weaknesses goes, I think that all basics with 100+ HP should have X2 weakness. Period. However, I believe that evolving basics as well as their evolutions should sit around a +10 to +50 range depending on the strength of the card. Perhaps Pokemon with abilities would lie at the higher end of that range(ex: Squirtle BCR, Munna BCR have +20 due to ability, while Rattata would have only +10), and Stage 1's and 2's would have +30 to 50 depending on ability, HP and attack strength. Of course, doing all this would probably require alot more forethought on Japan's TCG department than what they are currently giving us in terms of type balance, but I think it would all in all be very good for the game.

Resistance should, in theory work in the same manner as weakness, but have a lower threshold at 10- MAYBE 40 at most, and ALL Pokemon should have some sort of resistance- except for standard "Normal" types from the game.

This!

I also felt that a x2 Weakness on a 60 HP Basic was way too harsh. A mere 30 damage is all it would take to KO say Deino. While this does parallel with the game, in the game it's Terrakion vs Hydreigon, not Terrakion vs Deino. In the TCG, you're forced to play Deino in order to get Hydreigon. I'm not sure if I'm doing a good job of explaining this. But now that I think about this, in this format at least, it's nice to have Landorus to OHKO Deinos on account of Weakness before they evolve into Hydreigon.

I also would like to see a variety of Weaknesses. (This might seem completely off-topic, but it's not; here me out.) Some non-EX's might see more play. If Toxicroak's Weakness was {F} instead of {P}, it would be a much better counter to Mewtwo since Mewtwo couldn't OHKO it back with just a DCE. Note that in the game, Poison is weak to Ground, and we aren't just making things up. And giving Reshiram EX and Zekrom EX each a secondary {DRG} Weakness would make them pretty bad as far as Weakness goes. I think it would give non-EX's a slight edge based on typing.

 

[pokedan24]

RE: EX's: Ruining the Game?

Yeah, I recall some of the diamond and pearl pokemon having different weakness and resistance. It was a neat way to change things up without completely changing the game. Now it's pretty much back to base set. Everything has double weakness and -20 resistance, no variations.

Also, what happened to the 3 attack pokemon? Those were cool.