I've read somewhere that Smogon is going to move Salamance, Garchomp and Mew down to OU. Although Salamance has a good chance, I don't see why Garchomp and Mew would. I think that Politoad will also be moved up to OU because of drizzle.
Gen 5 Tier Speculation
- Thread starter Chillarmy
- Start date
Well, Politoed got DRIZZLE. Not drought. Garchomp and Mew should be Uber, Garchomp is too bulky and too broken in snadstorm to be OU IMO, and Mew having the best movepool in the game (except for Smeargle, obviously) makes it Uber. Mence, is, IMO, too good for OU but not good enough for Uber... with Overconfidence and Dragon Dance, it is really good. Maybe there will be a new BL?
There are definitely going to make doryuzuzu or tyranitar uber (and they better).
Chillarmy said:
There won't be a new BL tier. Ubers is the ban list for OU and is not meant to be balanced. I believe Wynaut is technically Uber in Gen IV, though a serious team would never use it.
Well, Smogon has completed round one of suspect testing. So far, the super-majorities removed Deoxys-N, -A, Shaymin-S, and the ability Inconsistent. Now, Manaphy, and Drizzle are next for suspects. I don't remember if there are more than those two, but still. I have a feeling Drizzle will be banned this time around, and Manaphy will go with it. There's almost no doubt about it. We were complaining about a +2 boost last gen. Now it's +3? That's nuts. It's ability to really dent, anything now is just, unbelievable. As for other pokemon people want removed. I don't see Wobbuffet as a real problem anymore, as so many pokemon recieved, and use taunt, it'd be hard for Wobbers to really get in. There have also been a couple new Shadow Taggers who sort of make better use of the ability, in a more offensive nature. As for Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D, Mischievous Heart really kills the two of these. Priority taunt makes Deoxys-S's speed worthless for getting SR or Spikes Down, and Deoxys-D isn't fast enough to setup like Deoxys-S, so Taunt will always stop it. Offensively, neither will be doing too much damage, as both have atk/spa stats under base 100, which won't be doing too much without a boost (which would be stopped by taunt).
For anyone complaining about Tyranitar/Doryuuzu/Ulgamoth/Ononokusu, Drop it. They have way too many counters to actually be a huge threat to OU. Tyranitar has always had a lot of counters, and now it has even more with Waruvial, Poison Heal Gliscor, Roobpushin, and specifically Nageki, with its massive defenses. Doryuuzu is stopped by any sort of priority, or other weathers being brought in. Is it powerful? Yes. Is it a massive threat to the entire metagame? Sure. Is it unstoppable in a sense where the metagame revolves around it to stop it? No. Not even close. Ulgamoth is crippled by SR and special walls, such as Blissey or Vuljiina. Most Ulgamoth also run HP rock, so a pokemon like Blissey, Heatran, or Kerudio. If Ulgamoth runs Gale, Heatran is the perfect counter. Ulgamoth is just easily stopped like Doryuuzu. Ononokusu is the Rhypherior of this Gen. It's really better left to choice sets, as it won't ever have the chance to get in without losing a large chunk of HP. It's better left to revenge killing.
For anyone complaining about Tyranitar/Doryuuzu/Ulgamoth/Ononokusu, Drop it. They have way too many counters to actually be a huge threat to OU. Tyranitar has always had a lot of counters, and now it has even more with Waruvial, Poison Heal Gliscor, Roobpushin, and specifically Nageki, with its massive defenses. Doryuuzu is stopped by any sort of priority, or other weathers being brought in. Is it powerful? Yes. Is it a massive threat to the entire metagame? Sure. Is it unstoppable in a sense where the metagame revolves around it to stop it? No. Not even close. Ulgamoth is crippled by SR and special walls, such as Blissey or Vuljiina. Most Ulgamoth also run HP rock, so a pokemon like Blissey, Heatran, or Kerudio. If Ulgamoth runs Gale, Heatran is the perfect counter. Ulgamoth is just easily stopped like Doryuuzu. Ononokusu is the Rhypherior of this Gen. It's really better left to choice sets, as it won't ever have the chance to get in without losing a large chunk of HP. It's better left to revenge killing.
From playing gen 5 for about two days so far, I've came to the conclusion that only one thing should be banned, and that another entity shouldn't. Rain, as most are complaining about, I haven't had much trouble with. The only time I had bad results with it was when I either played carelessly or was haxed on. It was the same way in gen 4; it will be the same in gen 5. The only difference is that rain is constant now, but there are many Pokemon that can take on the majority of the Pokemon that benefit from Rain Dance.
On the other hand, Doryuuzo I've had a lot of trouble with. If Doryuuzo has the item Balloon, you'll be in for a ride if it's covered in a Sandstorm. The fact that it out-speeds Pokemon who have Choice Scarf speaks volumes. Also, priority has trouble getting the OHKO on it. Therefore, it's going to take out many Pokemon before it goes down, if not the whole team.
On the other hand, Doryuuzo I've had a lot of trouble with. If Doryuuzo has the item Balloon, you'll be in for a ride if it's covered in a Sandstorm. The fact that it out-speeds Pokemon who have Choice Scarf speaks volumes. Also, priority has trouble getting the OHKO on it. Therefore, it's going to take out many Pokemon before it goes down, if not the whole team.
@Hotaru: I disagree that Chansey should be UU. Have you seen the stuff it can do with evolution stone? It's defense and special defense increase by a huge 50%. It will have better defenses than Blissey does. In fact if you were to max out Chansey's SpD, you could reach 478 with evolution stone.
Anyways, I sort of disagree with LL. I find Gliscor to be a pretty reliable counter to Doryuuzu. There's also Hippowdon. If Doryuuzu has taken prior damage, a Mach Punch from a guts burned Roopushin could finish him. (I'll have to find out at what percent however, I know it doesn't OHKO.) I have never really had problems with Doryuuzu or RD teams, but I think I've had more trouble overall with RD teams from Drizzle over Doryuuzu.
Anyways, I sort of disagree with LL. I find Gliscor to be a pretty reliable counter to Doryuuzu. There's also Hippowdon. If Doryuuzu has taken prior damage, a Mach Punch from a guts burned Roopushin could finish him. (I'll have to find out at what percent however, I know it doesn't OHKO.) I have never really had problems with Doryuuzu or RD teams, but I think I've had more trouble overall with RD teams from Drizzle over Doryuuzu.
I listed two when he's at full health. Swampert could work too I guess, although just not as good as Gliscor or Hippo. There's also many things that could beat him if they were at full health, although I won't exactly consider it a "counter". Machamp, Roob, Hariyama, etc. could all beat him if they had high health. But I definitely don't think he's impossible or too hard to beat. There's also Azumarill who can just Aqua Jet him. (I'll go check now if it's an OHKO.)
EDIT: Here's the damage calc for Azumarill.
654 Atk vs 156 Def & 362 HP (40 Base Power): 360 - 426 (99.45% - 117.68%)
I think it has somewhat of a decent chance of OHKOing. Especially with Stealth Rock.
I don't know if people use it, but CB Roobushin does on average 103% with Mach Punch with a +Nature and 252 Attack EV's.
EDIT: Here's the damage calc for Azumarill.
654 Atk vs 156 Def & 362 HP (40 Base Power): 360 - 426 (99.45% - 117.68%)
I think it has somewhat of a decent chance of OHKOing. Especially with Stealth Rock.
I don't know if people use it, but CB Roobushin does on average 103% with Mach Punch with a +Nature and 252 Attack EV's.
If Drizzle sticks around then Dory won't be a problem at all with the weather changing around. Even with the extra speed, Mach Punch is running rampant with the Roopushins and Kojondos all over the place. Doryuzuu basically gets slaughtered from what I've seen with physical walls like the above Swampert and Hipowdon just Roaring or EQing it away. I also use a Choice Scarf Kerudio set which beats Neutral natured Doryzuu in the rain, but not for that reason because enough checks and counters are already present. There are much more serious suspects we should be dealing with first.
Balloon is Doryuuzu's most common item, Jolly is its most common nature, and that those Pokemon are potentially switching into Swords Dance. So Swampert, Hippowdon, Gliscor, etc. have two use a weak attack to get Doryuuzu into a super effective attack. Gliscor is probably the only true counter to Doryuuzu able to take two +2 Returns and able to Acrobat and Earthquake Doryuuzu. Swampert falls to two +2 Earthquakes while it is unable to ohko Doryuuzu. Hippowdon also falls to the same two Earthquakes but Stealth Rock is necessary for the ohko (still 90% chance of it without Stealth Rocks). Also it is important to note that all priority users cannot ohko Doryuuzu, baring Azumarril, without it taking prior damage.
Skarmory and Bronzong ares also a good checks.
Skarmory and Bronzong ares also a good checks.
Doryuuzu IMO is a fantastic Pokemon. It practically came down to you needing a check or counter for him on your team. With Balloon handling his weakness he can literally put a hold on his counters by himself. Doryuuzu does have counters / checks though. If it didn't it would be deemed uber. Skarmory, Bronzong, Gliscor, and Azumarill, and CB Roobushin can all defeat Doryuuzu. So it's really no un-defeatable. Thing is 2 / 5 of those Pokemon are rather uncommon. CB Azumarill is overshadowed by other bulky waters. While CB Roobushin is overshadowed by Bulk Up Roobushin because of hype.
I just don't feel Doryuuzu is to big a problum if you have a check / counter to it. Thing is not every team can always fit one in. Since Doryuuzu can't be worn down by hazards if he's carrying a Balloon that can make matters harder. Doryuuzu can spin hazards away by it's self with a Rapid Spin. This gives it a utility use and offencive use.
I just don't feel Doryuuzu is to big a problum if you have a check / counter to it. Thing is not every team can always fit one in. Since Doryuuzu can't be worn down by hazards if he's carrying a Balloon that can make matters harder. Doryuuzu can spin hazards away by it's self with a Rapid Spin. This gives it a utility use and offencive use.
Exactly. Mainly only stall can fit those Pokemon on a team. In terms of CB Roobushin, that's major setup bait for stat-uppers in offensive teams; still usable, I guess. Azumarill isn't used much, and doesn't really deserve a mention.
So if only stall teams can have solid checks to Doryuuzu, wouldn't you say that he overwhelms the metagame? The fact that it completely takes out the offensive style of play speaks volumes.
So if only stall teams can have solid checks to Doryuuzu, wouldn't you say that he overwhelms the metagame? The fact that it completely takes out the offensive style of play speaks volumes.
I think we shouldn't start getting all worried about Doryuuzu yet. I kind of think of it as Gyarados in the 4th gen; every team had to be prepared for it after a DD. Same with Dragonite. I wouldn't say he overwhelms the metagame, more that he is an important threat. Also, remember when everyone said stall would die with the major offensive threats? This may be a way to balance the two more evenly. Anyways I think we have already listed the counters to Doryuzuu which seems fine to me because there are many Pokemon who can check it after a kill or change the weather eliminating its speed.
Well with moves that boost 3 stats and Pokemon with power creep stats stall is a bit diminished. Also, many offensive teams are rain based or have Mach Punch on them so that should take care of Doryuzuu.
Personally, Doryuuzu as long as you have your own weather. For example, If you run say, Scarf Abomasnow. Aboma easily gets in on an unboosted EQ or better yet, an SD, and actually gets the KO with HP fire. Scarf politoed can also change the weather, and get in and ko with nearly anything on its set. Ninetails gets in on X-scissor or an SD, and with max speed and a +Nature, will always outspeed Doryuuzu, and will ko with flamethrower. a CB Breloom can get in on a SD, and always get the KO with mach punch. Balloon magnezone is probably my favorite counter to Doryuuzu. With Balloon, Magnezone can easily get in on an SD, or even after you lose a pokemon. HP fire will OHKO Doryuuzu, as it is forced to use Rock slide or X scissor on you. There's plenty of counters to Doryuuzu, you just have to get creative.