Discussion "Hail King Garb": What Garbodor Means Next Season

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Emskas

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"The best way to deal with abilities is to stop them" -Garbodor Lincoln

So, you've heard about the new format, you've skimmed over the rotated cards, disassembled your decks, and turned to the future. Making a deck pick for next season right now would be a little foolish, unless you know exactly what is going to be popular and what isn't. However, there is one card that is being dubbed as "unstoppable" and "a force to be reckoned with": Garbodor.

Act 1: Playing Garbodor

For those that are new, Garbodor is a stage 1 Pokemon that states that all abilities are nullified if Garbodor has a Pokemon tool card attached to it. This form of Garbodor has had 2 main incarnations in the Pokemon TCG. The first was printed in Dragons Exalted, and then reprinted in Legendary Treasures. Then, just a couple months ago, Garbodor was brought back in BREAKpoint. However, this variation is not a carbon copy reprint. He has a new, arguably better attack. However Garbodor isn't meant as an attacker, and let's go over his main purposes, and decks he can be in.

My first use of Garbodor was in the GMT deck. It used Garbodor, Mewtwo-EX, and Terrakion to counter some of the meta's most fearsome decks at the time, such as the newly kindled Darkrai, and Rayeels. It was great as an anti meta deck, since you kill the support to these decks with our friend Garbodor, and then butcher their lifelines with heavy hits from Mewtwo-EX, with Terrakion just there to help out, doing 90 for 1 energy if your Pokemon had been knocked out last turn. It was pretty much the father of the Big Basics deck, which would go on to win U.S. Nationals in 2014. This demonstrated/demonstrates 1 of Garbodor's main strengths, he's great in anti-meta decks.

Before Shaymin, we didn't have many staple cards besides Jirachi-EX that had an ability, right? This meant that you didn't have abilities, you could slip Garbodor in, and your deck would become even better. This is exactly what happened with Yveltal/Garbodor and Seismitoad/Garbodor (Not Jason's Variant). Those decks had no or very few abilities to use, and Garbodor was put in, and the decks had a ton of success. This is evidence that Garbodor is very versatile and splashable.

These two examples show that Garbodor can be used in many powerful decks, and can cripple or straight up counter many big decks in the meta.

Act 2: Ex-Checks and Weaknesses

The easiest way to stop Garbodor is to discard it's tool, and we've always had something in format to do that, until now. Tool Scrapper, Startling Megaphone, and Xerosic have all been ways that has been Trumped. But thanks to the new rotation, we won't have a chance to have another tool-discarding card until the fall set. This is scary, as now the only way you can stop Garbodor is to Lysandre it up and knock it out.

Act 3: The Impact

I feel like the use of abilities next season in standard will be mostly reserved to faster decks that can set up prior to Garbodor coming out. Let's take a look at some decks that suffer the most next season.

Magnezone: Yeah, no more Shining body or Magnetic Circuit. The deck has it pretty bad. Compare the matchup to Blastoise vs Yveltal/Garbodor. Yeah, no competition here.

Greninja: This has it the absolute worst next year. No more Giant Water Shuriken makes Greninja drop a tier or 40. Combine this with the fact the Yanmega BREAK will be coming out, and that i've heard that people may be playing Mega Sceptile next season. Expect a decrease in this deck's play.

Fire: This is hard, because our fire support is not out yet, but fire does take a hit, as Volcanion can't use it's damage increasing ability, and you can no longer move around energy with Flareon.


THE CONCLUSION:

For a couple months, it could be that every deck with no abilities (outside of Shaymin) will run Garbodor, just to make it a little better in matchups with abilities. I'm going to be attempting to brave this storm, and play a deck that really relies on abilites, as i'm confident that I have a quick enough setup to keep Garbodor in check. However, my lategame will definitely struggle.

What do you guys think, what decks do you think will receive less play? Please post down below!
 
Honestly, I don't see where all the random garb fear is coming from. Yeah, greninja has trouble with it. It can cause problems for Mega Ray. But it's still a lysandre-able target with 100 hp. That's pretty easily OHKO'ed by anything in the format that's not water box/greninja without abilities (since muscle band is gone). Water box doesn't really have anything to worry about with ability lock. It's really only greninja, and I forsee that falling in tier with the loss of XY greninja and the rise in M Sceptile decks.

TL;DR- Don't fear the trash bags. They're disturbing, but not format breaking for 99% of decks.
 
I dont think it will weaken much decks that uses abilitys just to setup as M Ray (Shaymin and Hoopa), or others decks with Megas, with the exception as M Alakazam. I believe M Ray will be the strongest deck post rotation, as it's biggests threads will be gone (Night March and Manectric/M-Man). I'm sad to see that Fire decks won't have a change again, this time not because of strong water decks all around, but for loosing Blacksmith and it's abilitys.
Yeah, right now, my bet is M Ray, who is with me?
 
OmnomOrNah said:
Honestly, I don't see where all the random garb fear is coming from. Yeah, greninja has trouble with it. It can cause problems for Mega Ray. But it's still a lysandre-able target with 100 hp. That's pretty easily OHKO'ed by anything in the format that's not water box/greninja without abilities (since muscle band is gone). Water box doesn't really have anything to worry about with ability lock. It's really only greninja, and I forsee that falling in tier with the loss of XY greninja and the rise in M Sceptile decks.

TL;DR- Don't fear the trash bags. They're disturbing, but not format breaking for 99% of decks.
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It is the compounded act of Xerosic and Megaphone being lost, plus BC to VS for Lysandre being lost. BC is gone. Garbordor is going to have his day in the sun for a bit. Water tool box looses Manphy free retreat cost once gabador is up. It forces water pokemon to stay in the active. One of the core strategies of water tool box is that it will be able to retreat and heal (Rough Seas, Manphay). Seismitoad will be gone too. I don't really see water tool box being that great after worlds. Mega Sceptile won't work as well without Aridos. And only dealing 100 points of damage without knock out power, will be harder to deliver true success.

Having said all this, I'm just glad Pokemon gave a variety of Pokemon to pair up with Garbodor. I mean there is Mewtwo Y, Audino, Darkria, Yveltal, Zygarde, Swabaloo, and (Steam Siege) Gardivior. Probably others I haven't thought of, but that is a lot longer of a list then the past few years. It was usually only Seismitoad and Yveltal that worked well with the card. I think Garbodor, once testing gets going, will show a significant disturbance in next seasons meta.

Pokemon is giving trainers to many signs that playing him is going to be worth it.
 
If it becomes too much of an issue, people may start running Mr.Mime from Primal Clash
XY5_EN_101.png

It's first attack can take of Garbodor's tool card and put it on a useless Shaymin or something. AND its for a single colorless, so its easily splashable (It can also move around spirit links and FFBs, so that's something to think about). Its second attack can lock a Lysandre'd Garbodor into play. It only has 80 HP, but if you putt a FFB on it, its a 120 HP 1 prize Basic, which isn't bad. It has a resistance to dark, so that's potentially good. Only bad thing about it is its DCE retreat cost, but other than that, its a real underrated card that is a good counter to Garbodor (And it can slow down Mega Decks)
 
at this point i want a garchomp/garbodor deck with a tech line of 2-2 vespiquen
 
Johto King said:
If it becomes too much of an issue, people may start running Mr.Mime from Primal Clash
XY5_EN_101.png

It's first attack can take of Garbodor's tool card and put it on a useless Shaymin or something. AND its for a single colorless, so its easily splashable (It can also move around spirit links and FFBs, so that's something to think about). Its second attack can lock a Lysandre'd Garbodor into play. It only has 80 HP, but if you putt a FFB on it, its a 120 HP 1 prize Basic, which isn't bad. It has a resistance to dark, so that's potentially good. Only bad thing about it is its DCE retreat cost, but other than that, its a real underrated card that is a good counter to Garbodor (And it can slow down Mega Decks)
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At this point you might as well just knock it out. Remember that it only has 100 HP. Many cards in format are capable of hitting 100 damage for just a few energy, and the lysandre/VS seeker combo helps this out a lot. Lock up is a great attack against Garb because scoop up cards aren't likely as well as switch/escape rope readily in hand. Unfortunately, fairy isn't too big right now and won't be much after Florges and Aromatisse are rotated. The best soln for next format is just to one shot it or ignore it if you don't need to KO it.
 
Garbodor is considerably overrated to compete. It's something you throw together for fun in VS mode online, but it's too easily championed by Swarmer decks with heavy power that don't rely on abilities whatsoever. I think honestly, the only reason you see it in the mainstream is because people are trying to desperately combat the cheap draw influence of heavy Shaymin use.

However, Mega Gardevoir is soon to be a thing, and for a single energy, will lay Garbodor to rest with [Sudden Cyclone] Hawlucha. Simply put—I think trying to rely on Garbodor will ultimately work out for the worst. It's not really meant for this format at all. The truest purpose behind this new Garbodor was simply intended to provide some offensive potential to the old {Garbotoxin} decks (now further improved by Dimension Valley).
 
ReapThaWhirlwind said:
However, Mega Gardevoir is soon to be a thing, and for a single energy, will lay Garbodor to rest with [Sudden Cyclone] Hawlucha
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D-Valley rotates

List of decks that garb shuts down
Greninja
Yanmega
Mega Ray/ Raicu if Wally is used or they wiff something.
 
So it does. It still probably doesn't matter though, since [Geomancy] Xerneas will be reborn again, and Xerneas BREAK is only sure to further encourage the combination with Mega Gardevoir. We're also keeping Fairy Garden, which easily takes the place of Dimension Valley alongside [Geomancy] Xerneas to much greater success. Basic scenario: Xerneas goes live and acts as a defense, and in one turn, gives birth to Mega Gardevoir. From there, Xerneas retreats for free, a [Sudden Cyclone] Hawlucha drops on the bench and Mega Gardevoir can One-Hit KO any Garbodor or Shaymin-EX on the spot.

This stick and move strategy defines the Slugger boxing style, which I personally think reigns supreme as the single most challenging play style to face off against (thus making it one of the best styles to utilize). The only style of deck that's going to stand much of a chance is a Swarmer style, which involves fast and aggressive attacking, seeking to storm the opponent's side and overwhelm them in the offensive.

So even if {Garbotoxin} does shut down a number of cards, it's still considerably dead weight compared Slugger and Swarmer strategies that those same cards fair no better against. It's a much more universal strategy, and that's why I can't image Garbodor is truly going to be as great as one might image.
 
ReapThaWhirlwind said:
So it does. It still probably doesn't matter though, since [Geomancy] Xerneas will be reborn again, and Xerneas BREAK is only sure to further encourage the combination with Mega Gardevoir. We're also keeping Fairy Garden, which easily takes the place of Dimension Valley alongside [Geomancy] Xerneas to much greater success. Basic scenario: Xerneas goes live and acts as a defense, and in one turn, gives birth to Mega Gardevoir. From there, Xerneas retreats for free, a [Sudden Cyclone] Hawlucha drops on the bench and Mega Gardevoir can One-Hit KO any Garbodor or Shaymin-EX on the spot.

This stick and move strategy defines the Slugger boxing style, which I personally think reigns supreme as the single most challenging play style to face off against (thus making it one of the best styles to utilize). The only style of deck that's going to stand much of a chance is a Swarmer style, which involves fast and aggressive attacking, seeking to storm the opponent's side and overwhelm them in the offensive.

So even if {Garbotoxin} does shut down a number of cards, it's still considerably dead weight compared Slugger and Swarmer strategies that those same cards fair no better against. It's a much more universal strategy, and that's why I can't image Garbodor is truly going to be as great as one might image.
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LOL! I Laughed so hard, you just made my day. You are being the most ironic possible, right?
 
You're right about that. But I think you'd be lucky to get to Garbodor in time to shut off Hawlucha's ability. It involves playing first, and even then would further involve some aggressive resource spending to get a narrow 2-2 Trubbish/Garbodor out from your deck. Has anyone seen how well this conventionally plays out? I would image Garbodor doesn't hit the table until the third or fourth turn most of the time. That's far too late against what I've suggested. And I would image using Wally is entirely out of the question, because in the number a person would tech the card, it's sure to be too unreliable for great success.
 
How exactly is this Sudden Cyclone supposed to allow you to KO the garbodor or shaymin on the bench? You don't choose which one comes off the bench, the other player does. Better off using Lysandre.
 
You don't need to go first if you play Garbodor lol, since your opponent can't attack with M Gardevoir T1.

I'm maybe making a mistake, but I think the only pokemon which can take down Garbodor in T1 is M Sceptile, and it's still difficult
 
Decks that revolve around getting Garbodor out should get it out turn 2. I played M-Mewtwo/Garbodor a bit last season and I could consistently get a Garbodor up and running on my second turn - only rarely did I miss it. So it's certainly consistent.

In my opinion he's more useful than useless. Zoroark, Greninja, Rayquaza, Volcanion...loads of decks rely on abilities to function. Mega Sceptile is certainly a bit annoying, but you still lock their Shaymin and Ariados (does M-Scep play Ariados?). I don't doubt Garb's strength, because in a format without Megaphone and Xerosic, the only options are to knock it out - which means using your Lysandre to get rid of a 1-prize Pokemon. The issue is what to pair it with.
 
Javi Blizz said:
You don't need to go first if you play Garbodor lol, since your opponent can't attack with M Gardevoir T1.

I'm maybe making a mistake, but I think the only pokemon which can take down Garbodor in T1 is M Sceptile, and it's still difficult
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In the current format, it's true. But that signature role could become a shared role--if you count Max Elixir into the T1 equation--come Steam Siege, as when its associated dual-types become playable, Rainbow force decks are going to become more than just golurk-ability-reliant--and not only does that nullify the need for sky field to make it work, but the following equation becomes true as well: one Breakthrough Xerneas start in active + one Breakthrough Xerneas drop to bench + one lucky max elixir-triggered attachment from deck to previously-benched Breakthrough Xerneas + one dual-type pokemon drop to bench + 1 DCE manual attachment to the exact same xerneas that received the max elixir-triggered attachment previously + 1 float stone attachment to active pokemon or 1 trainer card switch use + 1 retreat into a charged-enough-for-rainbow-force-use xerneas + 1 use of Lysandre to force out garbodor = 1TKO on Garbodor by Rainbow force...

^ Enough said...
 
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