Discussion "Hail King Garb": What Garbodor Means Next Season
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Don't think of what Garbodor does by himself, you won't find Garbodor decks. You will find control decks that run Garbodor as an option. Something like Giritina (there are likely gonna be a lot of megas around soon), Carbink, hammers & garbodor. Maybe with Team Aqua's base and parallel city. Decks like that. You Wally into Garbodor, then when they take five turns to set up and you have been chaos wheeling them, blocking their shaymins and lysandre stalling them with TASB and your opponent has lost the will to live then you can get rid of your garbodor and rely on Giritina's ability to counter mega decks, Carbink to stall out other EX decks etc. I don't think one or two of garb techs will be very good, it's easy to lysandre kill one garb, but a control deck with a 3-3 or 4-4 line will be a bloody nightmare.
Garb could potentially work well with mill decks as they all rely on attacks at the moment. So Mill + Garb could be a thing. But not sure that there is a good mill deck out there even with Weezing, bunnelby, durant & team rockets handiwork. I dunno if it would be good.
Garb could potentially work well with mill decks as they all rely on attacks at the moment. So Mill + Garb could be a thing. But not sure that there is a good mill deck out there even with Weezing, bunnelby, durant & team rockets handiwork. I dunno if it would be good.
Yes. That is what you will find. I think after a few weeks Xernias Break will start getting played and just one shot Giritina. Once the one shots start coming down the deck will fall apart. Hammers won't be able to keep up with super rod, max elixir and Xernias. Without BC there is room for more draw support and red card is gone. The strategy will start falling apart a bit. Also, without BC the T1 garbador is tougher. I know because I've been trying to make it happen and it does not fall very consistently, or if it falls it falls without float stone, or I expended to many resources. I just haven't gotten the right list yet.
But ya, Xernias Break I think will be the sleeper card for this meta as it will work well with a few different Mega's allowing setup or attacking without to much disruption from Garbador. Still yet to be seen, but I'm coming to a conclusion that it is a very versatile card for not only the Girtinia match up, but others as well.
Yeah man, Rainbow Road is a legit threat to this deck, and hammers alone won't be enough. But there will be techs to get around it and control decks are more than just energy denial, loosing headringer means you can't just rely on energy disruption any more. Parallel city and chaos wheel can mess that deck up potentially with target whistle to lock them to one or two types of pokemon, there are other cards that can beat it too. I think that a control deck will find a way around it. One option is to rely on your backup attacker instead of Giritina for that match. (what the best backup attacker is is a mystery so far)
Some techs and back up attackers that come to mind
http://www.pokemon.com/uk/pokemon-tcg/pokemon-cards/xy-series/xy10/63/ (If Rainbow Road is very popular a 1-1 or 2-2 line of this could swing the match back in Giritina's favour, easily 1 shots Xerneas)
http://www.pokemon.com/uk/pokemon-tcg/pokemon-cards/xy-series/xy5/100/ (maybe a bit clunky)
http://www.pokemon.com/uk/pokemon-tcg/pokemon-cards/xy-series/xy7/51/ (Three attack is a problem, but it does 1 shot Xerneas and can even have utility against other pokemon in format)
Hell even a Jolteon EX backup could be viable, even with Ranger in format I think Jolteon might have some utility still.
It will come down to how good Giritina is VS other matchups, Tina/Garb Control will be an anti meta deck, it will ebb and flow. If Megas are a big thing then it's a tier 1 deck, if megas stop getting played because of it, it will start to drop match ups. Also Xerneas is a auto loss unless it can find a good way to counter it.
I like all these ideas, and I have set raibowroad which I think will be a very good deck. However, I was actually talking about Xernias Geomancy. It was released as a promo and will still be playable from my understanding. Please comment if someone knows it will not be playable, I accept that I'm not the smartest bird in the flock.
When you break into Xernias after a single geomancy there will be 3 energies on the board. You need a single attachment to put 4 energies on the board. If you hit a max elixier or two there could be 6 energies on the board very quickly. It is not out of the realm of crazy possibility to do a 120*2 is 240 on a Girtinia very quickly. Of course this does not work if the card is not available, but ya I'm finding that the Geomancy Xernias works well with the break.
Good idea never thought about using Geo Xern with the new break, but I still feel that Rainbow Xern can do the same thing without needing the break just as easily if not easier, especially with duel types, also can hit higher numbers more effectively, after you've setup you wont be using Geo anymore so realistically each turn you are attaching 1 or 2 with max elixir, and the values are lower 20 vs 30 for rainbow, while still being able to use fighting fury as your not break evolving giving you a base of 10+10 plus 20 more HP.
Regarding Garbo its fairly simple to tell how effective ability lock is going to be, the current format has far more nastier locks available but the sweeper decks namely night march are still the deck to beat, and M Ray and Rainbow Xern are basicaly the new nm capable of hitting harder while also being less vulnerable. I still don't understand what all the fuss is about and why new threads regarding Garbo keep getting created. All that's changing is decks being a little slower than before and the nasty locks being less effective. The number of viable decks are going to increase and all people are doing is complaining about a few that wont be because of Garbo.
@SpoonLarry Ya I think Rainbow will be a better play too. It will just depend on the meta if people really come down with the hammers and flare grunt then Rainbow might get overwhelmed. It will be one of those decks where everyone is playing hammers and ability lock and you just play this silly stuff out of blue, just to be annoying back at them.
I don't think Garbo should be banned, nope. What I think is there should be a hard counter released. There are reasonable soft counters that you can use, but Garbordor is going to have a huge effect on the game without a hard counter. I'm going to absolutely play him because I'm not above any of it. I accept that I'm no angel in the world of pokemon. If darth vader said come to the dark side, I'd just walk over. I like my hands.
I don't think Garbo should be banned, nope. What I think is there should be a hard counter released. There are reasonable soft counters that you can use, but Garbordor is going to have a huge effect on the game without a hard counter. I'm going to absolutely play him because I'm not above any of it. I accept that I'm no angel in the world of pokemon. If darth vader said come to the dark side, I'd just walk over. I like my hands.
Problem with hard countering garb is it would just be unplayable again. Take karren, even without rotation being a thing karren would have wiped NM and Vespi off the face of the earth, a hard counter for garbodor would just leave it back in the binder where it is now.
If they want it in the format they will leave stuff as it is. It's not the most broken thing around. If they really don't want it they can print a hard counter and kill it off in seconds.
If they want it in the format they will leave stuff as it is. It's not the most broken thing around. If they really don't want it they can print a hard counter and kill it off in seconds.
In my opinion that is how game balanced is achieved. If a card has overwhelming played tatic then to achieve balance a hard counter needs to be created. I feel that all games from Sorry to Chess achieve game balance. Every card should have a scary notion to it. It should basically force the player to think, well if I play this way there are some repercussions. A particular card should not dominate a format, meta or game. A card should hold players back for a bit, but never dominate. Holding a player back, still allows the game to continue, but it does not put an opponent in an overwhelming dominate position.
I don't care how Pokemon pitches it. It is a lazy game design. If someone approached me about a design like this, I'd be pretty upset. I'd tell them to make it right. But thats just me, I have a very Steve Jobs approach to any design. I don't accept bad or mediocre work when I know it can better. In my opinion, this is mediocre work at best. It bugs me a bit. I challenge Pokemon to do a better job.
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You know what I completely agree. 100%.
However I don't think Garb is a dominating strategy, and therefore doesn't need a hard counter. NM needed one, we got GPF and Vileplume, wasn't good enough, they printed trev. Looks like Trev still isn't good enough judging by US nats. They print Karren, a card that might as well literally say "If your opponent is playing nightmarch then they should fudge right off". But that won't be around in time for worlds. Meaning that they can't even get the balance of a counter measure right when they do make one.
Your logic is right, but I think your point of view is flipped. I see Garb as the hard counter to Shaymin. I see Garb as the hard counter to Bats. I see Garb as the hard counter to fire decks, hard counter greninja. Garb is the counter to Safeguard. Garb is the hard counter they put in to check the powerful abilities they make.
Garb is the way they fix their mediocre design. And he is future proofed. They can print whatever abilities they want now, and worst comes to worst, garb gets popular for a bit. As long as they keep tool scrapper effects out Garb is an all round counter to whatever crazyness they feel like printing next.
Garbs popularity will go up and down depending on what abilities and tool scrapper effects are big in format. He will get big, countering good ability decks, then some deck that doesn't rely on abilities and can snipe him will get super popular instead, garb will fall off, ability decks will come back, then garb will come back.
Having no counter to garb means he can counter everything else.
But at least we aren't yugioh where the second a deck wins two regionals it's best two cards get banned out straight away to force people to constantly be changing archetypes. If you bought a NM deck and got good with it when it was popular last season, you have gotten over a years play with the same t1 deck. That is good value for money if nothing else.
Memories of Dawn Mew is a perfect counter for garb, only need to do an attack that does 50 to OHKO. If garb gets big I can see him becoming a 1 of in a lot of decks. Useful against garb, just ultraball fodder against other decks.
http://www.pokemon.com/uk/pokemon-tcg/pokemon-cards/xy-series/dc1/9/
as well as
http://www.pokemon.com/uk/pokemon-tcg/pokemon-cards/xy-series/xy8/61/
can both 1 shot Garb with muscle band and dce. But with only 100 hp most decks won't have too much trouble with pulling him out and killing him. Tbh if garb does get too good, and i mean really good. Then all they need to do is print a psychic type that does 50 for DCE or 1CE and it's gg garb.
http://www.pokemon.com/uk/pokemon-tcg/pokemon-cards/xy-series/dc1/9/
as well as
http://www.pokemon.com/uk/pokemon-tcg/pokemon-cards/xy-series/xy8/61/
can both 1 shot Garb with muscle band and dce. But with only 100 hp most decks won't have too much trouble with pulling him out and killing him. Tbh if garb does get too good, and i mean really good. Then all they need to do is print a psychic type that does 50 for DCE or 1CE and it's gg garb.
I'm not entirely talking about Garbador. Garbador is just one part of the design. I'm talking about tools in general. To give no way to pull a tool off, basically sets a design precedence. It ingrains tools as central focus of the game. It puts a lot of pokemon out of OHKO. It even speeds up Mega's without the ability to hinder them. I think the general conversation is Garbador. It is the discussion of interest, but as the game proceeds tools in general will get really dangerous. I think when people realize there is no way pull off, Bursting balloon, Fighting fury belt, Spirit Links and float stones on any Pokemon with an Item or supporter, they will realize that not having any counters is really a design flaw. Not only that, but it kills the use of Eco Arm. A card I felt balanced the scraper/megahorn/Xerosic.
I think not giving players any repercussions on using tools is not a good design. It is a bad design.
Like I said, I challenge Pokemon to design better. There is no repercussion of playing tools. It is a bad design.
Just like there is no repercussion for dropping Pokemon into the discard pile. It is a bad design.
Having no repercussion does not make a clever trainer. It is trainers like myself that try to abuse a broken part of the game to achieve victory in the most odious way that the game provides. I'm not clever because the designer gave me no repercussions of my actions. The designer, however is a bad designer for setting the game to achieve victory through his/her broken design.
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You're last point is what really drives the point home. You have no idea how much I hate hearing "it takes skill for the player to play this card". Competitive Pokemon players have this nasty habit of saying cards with no counters are somehow skillful when they aren't. Garbodor existing in a format where you can't turn off its ability isn't balanced, just like not being able to discard tools.
Its hard for me to say if this is an oversight but this has happened before so its either they don't know how to balance the game or they just don't care.
I feel the need to correct you here. MoD Mew can't do anything because its ability gets turned off but I think you are confusing something here. Garbodor is really good, and I mean really good. Garbodor hard punishes players who decks need abilities and at worst, Garbodor is discard fodder.
100 damage is still a lot to do for decks that need abilities. Thats at least 2+ turns to turn KO it and having the a gust effect available to you. Keep in mind that decks that need abilities to setup are slowed because they can't use them and asking them to KO it while they are getting beat down by a Pokemon hitting them for 100+ damage is very hard to do. Its punishing the player. Also, players like myself like to use toolbox decks and something like this existing with no counter removes a play style. Why do Pokemon with abilities need to be punished this hard when the problem is with the speed of the game and card design?
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Actually ,now that I think of it. I wonder if you can Design Enetie to double Bursting balloon and just keep recycling bursting balloon with Eco Arm. It will force the lysandre which will be slow and generate a ton of damage without doing anything. You also can't scrap my tools. I can't wait to figure out how many irritating things I can do with the new meta. ;0)
I think an entei +bursting balloon deck could have potential, depends if they reprint blacksmith in the new set, otherwise entei looses all it's speed. I used a meinshao focus sash recycling deck to win some league challenges this season, it can be done.
Good point about Mew, I think I was getting garb confused with the psychic exemption on wobbufet for a second.
Hmmm, I think the whole format will slow down. Giritina has never been a massively fast card (I'm guessing that's what you are referring to when you say getting beaten down for 100+ damage).
I would argue it's still nowhere near as damaging as Trevenant. Trev basically just screws over every deck out there in the nastiest way. There isn't a great counter for trev other than rough seas. Decks that slow the game down have a long history in pokemon, even back to the original wall decks in base/jungle/fosil. At least it can't be paired with item lock like it used to be. Garbotoad was a massive shitstorm to play against, it just turned off every chance you had. At least Girigarb leaves you quite a few options to get out of the situation. It's just another pain in the butt control deck.
Garbodor based decks I don't think it will be anything that cannot be dealt with. Tier 2 definitiely. I think it will almost certainly hit tier 1 for at least a small part of this season, probably early on. I don't see it dominating all year long like NM, and it doesn't decide the game on turn 1 like trev decks. So I think it's ok. It's been out for months in standard and nobody has used it yet because of the tool drop checks, with them off it has a chance to be a good card. Skilless sure, but all the best decks are in this game for most average players. If you aren't nats top 32 or world invite level player then playing an autopilot deck will get you wins plain and simple. That's one reason why they are so popular. It's not great games design, pokemon has never had great games design but we all still love to play it.
One possible reading of the new meta might be that they want us to rely less on tech cards and one off hard counters. Maybe they are trying to end the days of decks that decide the game based on turn 1 and a coin flip as well a the deck lists with 13 supporters where they are all one offs except for sycamore and N. That has been a plague since compressor came out. Maybe they want that out, maybe they want to give a slower game so control and mill decks can have their day in the sun. Control decks that are not lock decks don't work this season.
Good point about Mew, I think I was getting garb confused with the psychic exemption on wobbufet for a second.
Hmmm, I think the whole format will slow down. Giritina has never been a massively fast card (I'm guessing that's what you are referring to when you say getting beaten down for 100+ damage).
I would argue it's still nowhere near as damaging as Trevenant. Trev basically just screws over every deck out there in the nastiest way. There isn't a great counter for trev other than rough seas. Decks that slow the game down have a long history in pokemon, even back to the original wall decks in base/jungle/fosil. At least it can't be paired with item lock like it used to be. Garbotoad was a massive shitstorm to play against, it just turned off every chance you had. At least Girigarb leaves you quite a few options to get out of the situation. It's just another pain in the butt control deck.
Garbodor based decks I don't think it will be anything that cannot be dealt with. Tier 2 definitiely. I think it will almost certainly hit tier 1 for at least a small part of this season, probably early on. I don't see it dominating all year long like NM, and it doesn't decide the game on turn 1 like trev decks. So I think it's ok. It's been out for months in standard and nobody has used it yet because of the tool drop checks, with them off it has a chance to be a good card. Skilless sure, but all the best decks are in this game for most average players. If you aren't nats top 32 or world invite level player then playing an autopilot deck will get you wins plain and simple. That's one reason why they are so popular. It's not great games design, pokemon has never had great games design but we all still love to play it.
One possible reading of the new meta might be that they want us to rely less on tech cards and one off hard counters. Maybe they are trying to end the days of decks that decide the game based on turn 1 and a coin flip as well a the deck lists with 13 supporters where they are all one offs except for sycamore and N. That has been a plague since compressor came out. Maybe they want that out, maybe they want to give a slower game so control and mill decks can have their day in the sun. Control decks that are not lock decks don't work this season.
I guarantee that it just does not matter enough to them. The cynical side of me believes they did know about it and a designer thought it would be funny to watch and see what comes out of it.
After twenty-five years of the pokemon playing card game product, I believe the cynical side wins out. If people really care, I mean really care about a product, it does not happen. When you work with people that care, the care is absolutely shown through every stage of the product. You become an amazing team that basically works for the customer. In my twenty-years of + working, I've only had a good team once. They hard to come by.
When you work with people that are bored in a job, things like this happen. It is their way at getting back at a company. I believe they have bored Pokemon designers that force stuff like this happen. They are good company, but I challenge them to do better.
@Draaka I don't think in the next format you need that much speed because it will be slow. I think Max Elixer is plenty enough to get two charge cards using their first attack. My point to all if it is that there are cards that can really abuse the meta. Mega Tyranitiar is another one. I think in the next meta he actually might work. The meta will be slow and he can double tool. Mega Tyranitar/Garbador might be interesting. Or enetie Garbador might be interesting.
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Yeah, it will slow down but not that much. We still have plenty of speed cards. To a player who using abilities as their game plan, taking 100 damage on your attacker with energy is hard to ignore when you have to deal with a Garbodor. Look at Fairy Toolbox, they can't afford to waste turns to KO a Garbodor with a damaged Pokemon in the active spot. Losing 3 energy is a huge loss.
To me, its not a matter of what is more damaging since this is pretty subjective. Toolbox decks suffer. Energy acceleration decks suffer and while not everyone plays these decks, those who do are being punished for no reason because they prefer the play style. Players could easily not run as many item cards to fight item lock as well. This did happen when The Truth was a thing. Outside of running very specific decks, not much can be done. One thing we need to remember is Pokemon isn't Yugioh or Magic. Side decks don't exist so any counters or techs must exist in the deck. To me this is just bad game design so if side decks aren't going to be a thing, then cards need to be designed with this in mind. Even to some decks, the lock Giratina puts out is too much. Now that doesn't affect my deck because I dont run any cards Giratina turns off but not everyone wants to run my deck. Balance is to give players the ability to play their deck and counter when they need to. Garb won't have any counters, which kills of play styles.
Well if you aren't using abilities then you won't have them but what about the player with Magnezone? They built their whole strategy based on the card as well as their deck. Turning of their ability can also turn a lot of cards into dead cards. The whole deck folds because of poor developer judgement. This isn't a problem with the player just like its not the players fault when they lose to item lock because 60% of their deck is now dead draws. Pokemon never having great design isn't an argument because it did. We had balanced, skillful and fun formats before. Now a problem now is the speed of the game increased to meet the needs of best of 3 but we can still have this and a balanced format.
It would be nice if they do this but many other things need to change as well. For one they would need to introduce side decks. They also need to make the game with setup turns in mind and make more attacks that can be used on the first turn for the purpose of setting up because as of now, going second hurts.
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