Keldeo-EX / Blastoise discussion
- Thread starter Emopanda133
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RE: Shaymin EX, and the future BDIF HorseBlast
The fact that it has 170 HP makes it a little better for me, but I also think that if you plan on playing something involving a Rain Dance/Inferno Fandango type build, Reshiboar EX is the better option. It has a higher damage output for less, and both of its attacks are incredible. I could honestly stand to test this deck, but I highly doubt it will be tier 1.
Puff said:
You got me there, but the last time I remember reading the card, it had 110 HP. That may have been my eyes deceiving me somehow.alexmf2 said:
The fact that it has 170 HP makes it a little better for me, but I also think that if you plan on playing something involving a Rain Dance/Inferno Fandango type build, Reshiboar EX is the better option. It has a higher damage output for less, and both of its attacks are incredible. I could honestly stand to test this deck, but I highly doubt it will be tier 1.
RE: Shaymin EX, and the future BDIF HorseBlast
People are acting like these energy are just going to be falling from the sky. Rain Dance decks are inconsistent, they just are. You need to get a large amount of energy out, and a stage 2 out. Both of which are tough tasks. The only reason Magneboar worked was because it had built in draw. If you have to play Cilan or Skyla in a deck for consistency purposes, you're already doing something wrong. They're terrible excuses for Supporters. There are a lot of great techs that Blastoise Keldeo can utilize that could make it top tier, but good luck finding room for them and keeping your list consistent. That's going to be the deck's main issue.
People are acting like these energy are just going to be falling from the sky. Rain Dance decks are inconsistent, they just are. You need to get a large amount of energy out, and a stage 2 out. Both of which are tough tasks. The only reason Magneboar worked was because it had built in draw. If you have to play Cilan or Skyla in a deck for consistency purposes, you're already doing something wrong. They're terrible excuses for Supporters. There are a lot of great techs that Blastoise Keldeo can utilize that could make it top tier, but good luck finding room for them and keeping your list consistent. That's going to be the deck's main issue.
RE: Shaymin EX, and the future BDIF HorseBlast
there is no such thing as good & mewtwo player lol...
Vulpix Yolk said:
there is no such thing as good & mewtwo player lol...
RE: Shaymin EX, and the future BDIF HorseBlast
What? Like... ?
ashtavakra said:
What? Like... ?
RE: Shaymin EX, and the future BDIF HorseBlast
Sorry, you obviously haven't the deck before. You need three energy to get going. That's one energy turn 1 and two turn 2. And if you whiff, you start attacking turn 3. That isn't such a big deal. Also, Cilan does help for those times mid game when you are left with no energy on the board and need to get 3-4 energy w/o any Energy Retreival in hand, etc.
A Stage 2 isn't some sort of card that takes 3 turns and most of your resources to get out, if you can't get it out by simply drawing into Rare Candy and Blastoise, then hopefully you at least drew into a piece of it and a Skyla. Skyla is quite helpful for those times when you need only 1 card. When I first saw Skyla I was like "Wow that's a waste of a supporter." Once I tested it I found that actually, it's pretty good,
I run 2 of Cilan and 2 of Skyla. They are the cards that keep my list consistent.
Vulpix Yolk said:
Sorry, you obviously haven't the deck before. You need three energy to get going. That's one energy turn 1 and two turn 2. And if you whiff, you start attacking turn 3. That isn't such a big deal. Also, Cilan does help for those times mid game when you are left with no energy on the board and need to get 3-4 energy w/o any Energy Retreival in hand, etc.
A Stage 2 isn't some sort of card that takes 3 turns and most of your resources to get out, if you can't get it out by simply drawing into Rare Candy and Blastoise, then hopefully you at least drew into a piece of it and a Skyla. Skyla is quite helpful for those times when you need only 1 card. When I first saw Skyla I was like "Wow that's a waste of a supporter." Once I tested it I found that actually, it's pretty good,
I run 2 of Cilan and 2 of Skyla. They are the cards that keep my list consistent.
RE: Shaymin EX, and the future BDIF HorseBlast
You can't even compare this to Reshiboar. This is more powerful and consistent than Reshiboar all the time. Reshiboar's main problem was high retreat, INCREDIBLY suspectible to N, and consistent attacks. Keldeo EX doesn't discard energies, so you can easily get 2 keldeo streamin 110+. Keldeo EX also prevents catcher. N may hurt this a little, but Energy retrieval just starts the process of hitting again. Stop comparing Reshiboar to Keldeo.
VY is right. Sort of. D/H also needs at least 4 energy out and a stage 2. So does Keldeo. They both have energy retrieval from the discard but Keldeo's accelerates more for one card. they both have damage denial. So, unless your saying D/H is a bad deck, I don't see your point. Keldeo also doesn't rely on a weak set up basic.
You can't even compare this to Reshiboar. This is more powerful and consistent than Reshiboar all the time. Reshiboar's main problem was high retreat, INCREDIBLY suspectible to N, and consistent attacks. Keldeo EX doesn't discard energies, so you can easily get 2 keldeo streamin 110+. Keldeo EX also prevents catcher. N may hurt this a little, but Energy retrieval just starts the process of hitting again. Stop comparing Reshiboar to Keldeo.
VY is right. Sort of. D/H also needs at least 4 energy out and a stage 2. So does Keldeo. They both have energy retrieval from the discard but Keldeo's accelerates more for one card. they both have damage denial. So, unless your saying D/H is a bad deck, I don't see your point. Keldeo also doesn't rely on a weak set up basic.
RE: Shaymin EX, and the future BDIF HorseBlast
Darkrai Hydreigon and Keldeo are very different decks. Darkrai Hydreigon has amazing healing power that doesn't require a coin flip. It has the ability to hit most of the format for weakness as well. It can also function on it's own without a Hydreigon set up. Blastoise Keldeo can't function without a Blastoise out. It also struggles with Sigilyph and to a lesser extent, Garbodor, more than Darkrai Hydreigon does. I can see a lot of similarities, but they are completely different decks. Blastoise Keldeo is more like a slightly improved Reshiboar EX.
RogueChomp said:
Darkrai Hydreigon and Keldeo are very different decks. Darkrai Hydreigon has amazing healing power that doesn't require a coin flip. It has the ability to hit most of the format for weakness as well. It can also function on it's own without a Hydreigon set up. Blastoise Keldeo can't function without a Blastoise out. It also struggles with Sigilyph and to a lesser extent, Garbodor, more than Darkrai Hydreigon does. I can see a lot of similarities, but they are completely different decks. Blastoise Keldeo is more like a slightly improved Reshiboar EX.
RE: Shaymin EX, and the future BDIF HorseBlast
A: How is Blastiose NOT suspectible to N?
B: Darkrai/Hydregion has a few one-ups on Blastiose/Keldeo.
1: It doesn't NEED Hydregion early, Darkrai can function just fine one his own, unlike Keldeo.
2: It has garunteed heal, not a flippy heal.
3: Hydregion's attack OHKO's Blastiose.
4: The techs are pretty much anti-B/K. Take out Blastiose with Hydregion, then use Sigilyph to stop Keldeo and Mewtwo, if they use Kyurem, you again, have Hydregion. Shaymin is a great sweep. Sableye gets back Catchers, Dark Patch, Random Reciever, and Max Potion.
RogueChomp said:
A: How is Blastiose NOT suspectible to N?
B: Darkrai/Hydregion has a few one-ups on Blastiose/Keldeo.
1: It doesn't NEED Hydregion early, Darkrai can function just fine one his own, unlike Keldeo.
2: It has garunteed heal, not a flippy heal.
3: Hydregion's attack OHKO's Blastiose.
4: The techs are pretty much anti-B/K. Take out Blastiose with Hydregion, then use Sigilyph to stop Keldeo and Mewtwo, if they use Kyurem, you again, have Hydregion. Shaymin is a great sweep. Sableye gets back Catchers, Dark Patch, Random Reciever, and Max Potion.
RE: Shaymin EX, and the future BDIF HorseBlast
I was making a broad comparison. I know they aren't EXACTLY alike, if very alike at all. However, they are both strong decks that have many strong points that are similar. I never said one deck was better over the other, because I think D/H is anyways. Blastoise is LESS suspectible to N.
Emopanda133 said:
I was making a broad comparison. I know they aren't EXACTLY alike, if very alike at all. However, they are both strong decks that have many strong points that are similar. I never said one deck was better over the other, because I think D/H is anyways. Blastoise is LESS suspectible to N.
RE: Shaymin EX, and the future BDIF HorseBlast
Darkrai/Hydreigon are similar decks to the extent that their main EX attacker needs 3 energy to attack and it involves a Stage 2. Delving any deeper than that is just stupid because obviously there are a couple of differences when you compare two different decks.
Blastoise can function without a Blastoise out, depending on your current board situation. You should only need to last 1-2 turns without a Blastoise, and that's easy if you already have an attacking Keldeo out. If you don't have an attacking Keldeo (or a different attacker) out, you've probably already lost.
Sigilyph is not played in any deck other than Darkrai/Hydreigon, and to the extent of my knowledge Darkrai/Hydreigon got worse in Japan with the introduction of Boundaries Crossed. Plus, most Hydreigon don't even play Sigilyph.
Stop comparing Blastoise to Reshiram. The only similarity between them is that it includes a Stage 2 that accelerates energy. Blastoise has an unimaginable amount of advantages over Reshiram. Blastoise has much better attackers. Reshiram EX was the only good attacker that Emboar could accelerate to. Blastoise has sooo many more. Blastoise has Keldeo, Mewtwo, Kyurem, Kyurem EX, and Kyogre EX, and each one of those is playable. The format was also much faster then, and it is much, much slower now, especially with the introduction of Boundaries Crossed. Blastoise also gets Skyla, which helps to set up Stage 2s.
Vulpix Yolk said:
Darkrai/Hydreigon are similar decks to the extent that their main EX attacker needs 3 energy to attack and it involves a Stage 2. Delving any deeper than that is just stupid because obviously there are a couple of differences when you compare two different decks.
Blastoise can function without a Blastoise out, depending on your current board situation. You should only need to last 1-2 turns without a Blastoise, and that's easy if you already have an attacking Keldeo out. If you don't have an attacking Keldeo (or a different attacker) out, you've probably already lost.
Sigilyph is not played in any deck other than Darkrai/Hydreigon, and to the extent of my knowledge Darkrai/Hydreigon got worse in Japan with the introduction of Boundaries Crossed. Plus, most Hydreigon don't even play Sigilyph.
Stop comparing Blastoise to Reshiram. The only similarity between them is that it includes a Stage 2 that accelerates energy. Blastoise has an unimaginable amount of advantages over Reshiram. Blastoise has much better attackers. Reshiram EX was the only good attacker that Emboar could accelerate to. Blastoise has sooo many more. Blastoise has Keldeo, Mewtwo, Kyurem, Kyurem EX, and Kyogre EX, and each one of those is playable. The format was also much faster then, and it is much, much slower now, especially with the introduction of Boundaries Crossed. Blastoise also gets Skyla, which helps to set up Stage 2s.
RE: Shaymin EX, and the future BDIF HorseBlast
Another thing to consider is that BK also has a nice starter in Lapras, ans gains Manaphy soon after. Lapras can't be donked by anything but a Plasma Pokemon, and it's exactly the same as Emolga in other respects. It can also attack in a pinch. Sableye, however, is much more donkable. Shaymin may be a small problem this format, but it'll drop off the scene of competitive play with the release of Lugia EX, which just loves to surprise KO your Shaymins for 3 prizes. Blasteo also gains Articuno with Plasma Gale, which is a very solid backup attacker that can really capitalize on Terrakion/Garbodor matchups, as well as Darkdreigon.
Another thing to consider is that BK also has a nice starter in Lapras, ans gains Manaphy soon after. Lapras can't be donked by anything but a Plasma Pokemon, and it's exactly the same as Emolga in other respects. It can also attack in a pinch. Sableye, however, is much more donkable. Shaymin may be a small problem this format, but it'll drop off the scene of competitive play with the release of Lugia EX, which just loves to surprise KO your Shaymins for 3 prizes. Blasteo also gains Articuno with Plasma Gale, which is a very solid backup attacker that can really capitalize on Terrakion/Garbodor matchups, as well as Darkdreigon.
RE: Shaymin EX, and the future BDIF HorseBlast
The way I see it, BK (Blastoise/Keldeo, Hydropony, or whatever you wanna call it) is a good deck. Not quite BDIF, but definitely good. I know alot of people will probably write if off as bad, simply because of the lackluster performances of Reshiboar, Rayboar, and pretty much any "boar" deck. However, if you compare the pros and cons of the two decks, BK will clearly be the better deck. For example, you don't have as many retreating problems since keldeo lets you run around switching the active pokemon. You also have alot of good attackers. In my build I would use Kyurem NVI to spread damage so keldeo can sweep almost any pokemon with just 4 energy. In addition, kyurem and Keldeo don't discard energy like reshiram BW did, so the amount of energy retrievals you need isn't as high.
Also the deck has been doing well in Japan as far as I know, and even though alot of decks that came out of Japan were just flukes, an equal number of decks were successful in the metagame.
Just my 2 cents...
The way I see it, BK (Blastoise/Keldeo, Hydropony, or whatever you wanna call it) is a good deck. Not quite BDIF, but definitely good. I know alot of people will probably write if off as bad, simply because of the lackluster performances of Reshiboar, Rayboar, and pretty much any "boar" deck. However, if you compare the pros and cons of the two decks, BK will clearly be the better deck. For example, you don't have as many retreating problems since keldeo lets you run around switching the active pokemon. You also have alot of good attackers. In my build I would use Kyurem NVI to spread damage so keldeo can sweep almost any pokemon with just 4 energy. In addition, kyurem and Keldeo don't discard energy like reshiram BW did, so the amount of energy retrievals you need isn't as high.
Also the deck has been doing well in Japan as far as I know, and even though alot of decks that came out of Japan were just flukes, an equal number of decks were successful in the metagame.
Just my 2 cents...
RE: Shaymin EX, and the future BDIF HorseBlast
I do like this Blastoise-Keldeo EX and believe its a viable and competitive deck but I cannot see it as the BDIF. I'm putting it to Tier 1.5 at the moment but that could move from tier 1 - tier 2. I have tested and proxied this deck so I do know what I'm talking about and I can tell u that this deck does have a problem with N [not as much as ReshiBoar but still a problem] and it also has a problem with Mewtwo EX. Infact this deck has a bad Eels matchup .... opponent sets up Keldeo EX with lots of Energies and attacks to KO Pokemon.... Eels matchup sets up Mewtwo EX and X-Balls for the KO.....Blastoise throws down Mewtwo and enters into a Mewtwo war.... Eels N's late match putting both people down to few cards.....Eels has no problem with N and Ko's the opponents Mewtwo.....Blatoise has problems with N and can't set up a return Mewtwo with 3 Energies [unless he miracle draws a Cilan]....Blastoise loses. That's how it is most of the time. Oh and Shaymin EX does hurt this deck when Shaymin EX is run. Shaymin EX's + Super Rod's + Ultra Ball's in HDD or Eels [with Blends-Prisms-Grass] = GG most of the time. But Shaymin EX can't be teched into most decks and most people won't tech it so in that respect it won't be a huge problem.
I do like this Blastoise-Keldeo EX and believe its a viable and competitive deck but I cannot see it as the BDIF. I'm putting it to Tier 1.5 at the moment but that could move from tier 1 - tier 2. I have tested and proxied this deck so I do know what I'm talking about and I can tell u that this deck does have a problem with N [not as much as ReshiBoar but still a problem] and it also has a problem with Mewtwo EX. Infact this deck has a bad Eels matchup .... opponent sets up Keldeo EX with lots of Energies and attacks to KO Pokemon.... Eels matchup sets up Mewtwo EX and X-Balls for the KO.....Blastoise throws down Mewtwo and enters into a Mewtwo war.... Eels N's late match putting both people down to few cards.....Eels has no problem with N and Ko's the opponents Mewtwo.....Blatoise has problems with N and can't set up a return Mewtwo with 3 Energies [unless he miracle draws a Cilan]....Blastoise loses. That's how it is most of the time. Oh and Shaymin EX does hurt this deck when Shaymin EX is run. Shaymin EX's + Super Rod's + Ultra Ball's in HDD or Eels [with Blends-Prisms-Grass] = GG most of the time. But Shaymin EX can't be teched into most decks and most people won't tech it so in that respect it won't be a huge problem.
C
Chris DiNome
RE: Shaymin EX, and the future BDIF HorseBlast
I do think that shaymin EX will slightly affect Keldeo/Blastoise. However, even though Shaymin EX will OHKO anything in Keldeo/Blastoise, after only 2 prizes have been taken, it is usually only included as a one of in Darkrai/Hydregion. One could argue that if Keldeo/Blastoise becomes big (which it looks like it will, but look at what happened to Garchomp/Altaria) that shaymin would be played in a heavier amoung, but the Keldeo/Blastoise player can respond with another Keldeo with the bare requirement of the attack 50+(20*3), assuming of course all 3 energy are water energies, which they would be. Again, Shaymin EX could give the deck some trouble, but not really enough.
I do think that shaymin EX will slightly affect Keldeo/Blastoise. However, even though Shaymin EX will OHKO anything in Keldeo/Blastoise, after only 2 prizes have been taken, it is usually only included as a one of in Darkrai/Hydregion. One could argue that if Keldeo/Blastoise becomes big (which it looks like it will, but look at what happened to Garchomp/Altaria) that shaymin would be played in a heavier amoung, but the Keldeo/Blastoise player can respond with another Keldeo with the bare requirement of the attack 50+(20*3), assuming of course all 3 energy are water energies, which they would be. Again, Shaymin EX could give the deck some trouble, but not really enough.
RE: Shaymin EX, and the future BDIF HorseBlast
I think that Darkrai/Hydreigon, Rayquaza/Eel and Mewtwo/Zekrom/Eel are able to beat Keldeo/Blastoise, without much effort. And if Keldeo does get very popular and that good, people can just add Virizion EP + Eviolite to their Darkrai/Hydreigon deck to OHKO Keldeos while they need 5 Energys to OHKO it back. And I think the deck also will be very susceptible to N, but, it's pretty much theorymon. We can only see how good it will actually be once it is released.
P.S: This is my 1000th post! WOOT!
I think that Darkrai/Hydreigon, Rayquaza/Eel and Mewtwo/Zekrom/Eel are able to beat Keldeo/Blastoise, without much effort. And if Keldeo does get very popular and that good, people can just add Virizion EP + Eviolite to their Darkrai/Hydreigon deck to OHKO Keldeos while they need 5 Energys to OHKO it back. And I think the deck also will be very susceptible to N, but, it's pretty much theorymon. We can only see how good it will actually be once it is released.
P.S: This is my 1000th post! WOOT!
RE: Shaymin EX, and the future BDIF HorseBlast
4 energies to OHKO back(unless you meant Blastoise haha). Secret Sword starts at 50 and does 20 more for each Water. 3= 60 which = 110, -20 resistance is 90. 4 would make 110 even with resistance. Either way this is a pretty good point considering Virizion isn't the worst basic to start with vs a deck that would be mostly water(Giga Drain is pretty good).
I think this deck will be really good though because Keldeo doesn't need a dark energy attached to him to go in for free like Darkrai, but the downside is also not being able to retreat from active for free and if they can at least hit for 90-100 with a basic Pokemon, they won't care if they lose one basic if they kill it because they win the prize trade and then a good amount of Keldeo's energy is gone just like that. The other problem that will happen with this deck is having to use so much energy to attack to the point that you'll have to use items to pool your energies back.
It will also be beneficial however to maybe throw in Mewtwo, Registeel, or Bouffalant into this deck. Great for Mewtwo because if you have just one DCE on him to start, even 2 waters hits for up to 80 if not more on T2 with the correct Blastoise build, 120 on most if you start with Bouffa with 3 energies, 110 with Keldeo, and 30 to possibly a couple things with Registeel, all of this as said can be done T2 with correct build. That's pretty scary if you ask me.
I think Landorus/other things/Dusknoir will be able to threaten it well though. Squirtle's ability doesn't stop damage counter MOVING(as it only stops dmg from attacks) so if you don't get Blastoise as fast as they get Dusknoir for whatever reason then a kill can be made from Landorus on a Squirtle if they get Dusknoir on T2. All in all though I think Boundaries Crossed will look to shake up the format a good bit more than we thought Dragons Exalted would as Gartaria and Garbodor decks proved to be quite underwhelming if you ask me.
Roronoa Zoro said:
4 energies to OHKO back(unless you meant Blastoise haha). Secret Sword starts at 50 and does 20 more for each Water. 3= 60 which = 110, -20 resistance is 90. 4 would make 110 even with resistance. Either way this is a pretty good point considering Virizion isn't the worst basic to start with vs a deck that would be mostly water(Giga Drain is pretty good).
I think this deck will be really good though because Keldeo doesn't need a dark energy attached to him to go in for free like Darkrai, but the downside is also not being able to retreat from active for free and if they can at least hit for 90-100 with a basic Pokemon, they won't care if they lose one basic if they kill it because they win the prize trade and then a good amount of Keldeo's energy is gone just like that. The other problem that will happen with this deck is having to use so much energy to attack to the point that you'll have to use items to pool your energies back.
It will also be beneficial however to maybe throw in Mewtwo, Registeel, or Bouffalant into this deck. Great for Mewtwo because if you have just one DCE on him to start, even 2 waters hits for up to 80 if not more on T2 with the correct Blastoise build, 120 on most if you start with Bouffa with 3 energies, 110 with Keldeo, and 30 to possibly a couple things with Registeel, all of this as said can be done T2 with correct build. That's pretty scary if you ask me.
I think Landorus/other things/Dusknoir will be able to threaten it well though. Squirtle's ability doesn't stop damage counter MOVING(as it only stops dmg from attacks) so if you don't get Blastoise as fast as they get Dusknoir for whatever reason then a kill can be made from Landorus on a Squirtle if they get Dusknoir on T2. All in all though I think Boundaries Crossed will look to shake up the format a good bit more than we thought Dragons Exalted would as Gartaria and Garbodor decks proved to be quite underwhelming if you ask me.