Finished Mafia 53: Twilight's Kingdom

[Mariano11887]

First of all, I'm still waiting for roz's reason against me.
Second, I have a fever and I can't think very clearly. I'm this close of asking for a V/LA.

Then Jplap reacts to that vote despite not having to obviously, but if you think about it, it could easily be Mariano and Jplap’s attempt to negate the case on Mariano by showing that Mariano’s vote did get a reaction.

This is invalid because I admitted that my random.org vote was bad and I wouldn't do it again.

Sorry guys, I'll try to contribute a bit more when I feel better.

 

[Celever]

Oh my God anyone who's still harping on about Mariano's RNG vote being scummy. It's really not. It's one of those things which is scummy from the perspective that if PMJ, scattered, NP or myself made it that'd be O.O" but if anyone slightly less experienced makes it they probably just don't get what's wrong with it. Like, I was the first person to vote Mariano for it, and my vote was largely sarcastic because we were in RVS. There's nothing wrong with it. Let him off.

 

[GM DracLord]

What do you think he should ask next time?

I haven't think that far yet. Maybe it would pop up in my mind later

You say this, but what is your actual Jplap read at this point?

The last time Jlap was super active he died down after day 1. Seeing his in average posting right now might meant he really consider what he post abit.

The fact that you don't want to vote Jlap because of his "claimed ability," but your only reason for me is "nostalgia" (which isn't a reason at all) tells me that you simply didn't bother to read the thread before you first started posting. I guess that also explains your RVS/Bandwagon vote.

I when through the post once only and didn't think too deep into them simply because it's day 1 (Not much info are useful anyway) plus I barely have time to open my phone for the past few days during office hours due too my sudden work load.

We still have quite a long day and Jlap is already near lynch.

 

[NinjaPenguin]

Oh my God anyone who's still harping on about Mariano's RNG vote being scummy. It's really not. It's one of those things which is scummy from the perspective that if PMJ, scattered, NP or myself made it that'd be O.O but if anyone slightly less experienced makes it they probably just don't get what's wrong with it. Like, I was the first person to vote Mariano for it, and my vote was largely sarcastic because we were in RVS. There's nothing wrong with it. Let him off.

His vote isn't scummy but his response to being called out for it has all the wrong tone. It seems like he tries to justify it, then sees it isn't going to work and just backpedals off of it all while maintaining a stiff feeling tone. Just because the original thing isn't scummy doesn't mean his response isn't.

First of all, I'm still waiting for roz's reason against me.
Second, I have a fever and I can't think very clearly. I'm this close of asking for a V/LA.

This is invalid because I admitted that my random.org vote was bad and I wouldn't do it again.

Sorry guys, I'll try to contribute a bit more when I feel better.

I'm sorry to hear about that. This doesn't change the equation for me though.

Yeah no. We don't care if the indie is harmful or not, frankly, until we find the indie. What do you think would be accomplished by finding it out now?

Free info is free info and knowing if an indie is harmful or not matters a ton when it comes to mid-late game. I'd rather lynch would we would have lynched D2 on D1 and get more mileage out of an investigative role in the process.

 

[TOTAL_EPICNESS]

the whole case on Mariano started because he went on random.org and voted using a random number generator? That’s...interesting to say the least but I seriously think anyone who jumped on such a lame wagon should be put under some suspicion

 

[NinjaPenguin]

the whole case on Mariano started because he went on random.org and voted using a random number generator? That’s...interesting to say the least but I seriously think anyone who jumped on such a lame wagon should be put under some suspicion

the whole case on Jplap started because he claimed an ability result that was somewhat pro-scum but not completely? That's...interesting to say the least but I seriously think anyone who jumped on such a lame wagon should be put under some suspicion

(That's not the case on Mariano. The case is his scummy reaction to callouts of his RNG vote.)

 

[Celever]

His vote isn't scummy but his response to being called out for it has all the wrong tone. It seems like he tries to justify it, then sees it isn't going to work and just backpedals off of it all while maintaining a stiff feeling tone. Just because the original thing isn't scummy doesn't mean his response isn't.

OR his response was that he genuinely didn't see what was wrong with placing a vote with RANDOM.org (someone does it every game. People don't make the connection.) and then it was explained to him and he now understands the problem with it. Not scummy; townie as can be.

Free info is free info and knowing if an indie is harmful or not matters a ton when it comes to mid-late game. I'd rather lynch would we would have lynched D2 on D1 and get more mileage out of an investigative role in the process.

Sure, but this isn't free info. This is information at the cost of a lynch which is probably going to result in a townie dying, instead of jplap who appears very scummy, because we have no solid leads at all beyond jplap (and roz also rubs me the wrong way but it's not a massively solid case at all). If jplap could search up the info before the end of the day and still get lynched at the end of it, that'd be free. But this isn't, and it's a little scummy to me that you want us to lynch another player over him to find out something that chances are we'll find out anyway (most indies die early, especially newer ones, which most of this game is comprised of).

 

[Celever]

the whole case on Jplap started because he claimed an ability result that was somewhat pro-scum but not completely? That's...interesting to say the least but I seriously think anyone who jumped on such a lame wagon should be put under some suspicion

(That's not the case on Mariano. The case is his scummy reaction to callouts of his RNG vote.)

Yeah but jplap's case has advanced beyond that. Mariano really hasn't done anything scummy since.

 

[Celever]

the whole case on Jplap started because he claimed an ability result that was somewhat pro-scum but not completely? That's...interesting to say the least but I seriously think anyone who jumped on such a lame wagon should be put under some suspicion

(That's not the case on Mariano. The case is his scummy reaction to callouts of his RNG vote.)

And the foundation on jplap is already far beyond what the foundation on Mariano ever was. As the person to have started the wagons on basically both of these, I'm the best qualified to say that :U. Mariano's lynch is bogus and I started it as an RVS vote, when jplap's case is far beyond anything you could find in RVS. So anyone who still wants to lynch Mariano is basically playing RVS in a gamestate which is in Day 3 or 4. So stop. :L

 

[NinjaPenguin]

OR his response was that he genuinely didn't see what was wrong with placing a vote with RANDOM.org (someone does it every game. People don't make the connection.) and then it was explained to him and he now understands the problem with it. Not scummy; townie as can be.

How is this ever townie as can be? He understands the problem with it as both alignments always. The question is how does he approach understanding the problem? What tone? That's the way you can infer any alignment from what he says.

Sure, but this isn't free info. This is information at the cost of a lynch which is probably going to result in a townie dying, instead of jplap who appears very scummy, because we have no solid leads at all beyond jplap (and roz also rubs me the wrong way but it's not a massively solid case at all). If jplap could search up the info before the end of the day and still get lynched at the end of it, that'd be free. But this isn't, and it's a little scummy to me that you want us to lynch another player over him to find out something that chances are we'll find out anyway (most indies die early, especially newer ones, which most of this game is comprised of).

So our probably townie D2 mislynch with a worse role is rid of a day earlier. Cry me a river.
Also since when did new indies die early? Scum doesn't kill them and town doesn't like lynching newbies D1-3.

Yeah but jplap's case has advanced beyond that. Mariano really hasn't done anything scummy since.

That bandwagon on Jplap doesn't ring alarm bells? It's in perfect scum bandwagon position.
I'm not letting Jplap die like I let scattered die last game despite gamestate screaming at me that Jplap has to be town or indie.

And the foundation on jplap is already far beyond what the foundation on Mariano ever was. As the person to have started the wagons on basically both of these, I'm the best qualified to say that :U. Mariano's lynch is bogus and I started it as an RVS vote, when jplap's case is far beyond anything you could find in RVS. So anyone who still wants to lynch Mariano is basically playing RVS in a gamestate which is in Day 3 or 4. So stop. :L

At the very least, you should appreciate me trying to make it a day with multiple lynches that actually gives us info instead of one power wagon. So stop. :L

 

[Scattered mind]

Makes sense.. Jplap is scummier than Mariano, so lynching Mariano to find out whether or not he is scum is problematic. @Celever , what about the risk to lose the ability Jplap claims to have? Do you think no question is valuable enough to make this move of lynching the second scummy player ?

 

[Zone Q11]

@Everybody I don't care if you think Jplap is town or not; no matter what use can be derived from him. Tomorrow, Jplap is in a desperate need to tell us the truth. If we have him ask a question about scum, potential scum Jplap gets a free day of investigations for his team and just tells us what he already knows. But if we have him ask about if the indie is harmful or not, he is completely forced to tell us the truth or he's in trouble. To be able to tell the truth, he has to actually ask that question. Making him answer this useful question for us is just a simple win if he's a townie (since we wouldn't have mislynched him today) or scum (since he gives us info but doesn't have to opportunity to give him team any more than the town as a group). Leaving him alive tonight the more I think about it is always a win-win no matter what his alignment is (unless he in fact is an indie which I actually could see, but is still pretty unlikely).
Am I being crazy over here?

Just read what NP said after my post
If we ask him about the indie he could just lie and the indie would say nothing as they probably don’t want to be revealed as the indie

^ My response as well.

Nah Jplap still couldn't lie about this at all. If the indie flipped at any point he'd be automatically confirmed as scum if he lied.

I don't know about this... I mean, "the best case scenario" it would be like this:
-> D1 scum lynched
-> N1 indie killed
...this scenario is "the best case" scenario which is very unlikely to occur, but this scenario would mean that jplap wasted his question.

Other "more likely to happen" scenarios is that the indie gets lynched or killed at D3/D4 and by then we would have lost a lot of town.
Unless the indie is a KPR, then I don't see why we should focus on it than the scum.

Plus eevee has something mechanical on him I think he's implying.

I don't know... it seems too short for me.
I mean, I know RL takes loads of our time, but he should have enough time to explain his reasons. After all, Day lasts 96 hours in this game.

Second biggest scum in the game right now is @roz_the_eevee. Plants a vote saying they "may or may not" explain their reasons later, and lo and behold in their next post they didn't explain their reasons. BUT they also didn't move the vote, and still are acting like they think their target is scum. Despite never having provided a reason as to why. Nah. This ain't right. Even if jplap is scum he's putting in more effort than this, which is honestly insulting to the rest of the players who are trying to get progress done. If you're going to be so lazy to the point of not even attempting to justify where your vote is, don't sign up, because it's playing against your win condition and is bad sportsmanship.

Well, I feel as if this is going too far because I don't see him online in this thread (though that may come because I am not too active here as well), but I agree that Roz should explain why he voted for Mariano.

That bandwagon on Jplap doesn't ring alarm bells? It's in perfect scum bandwagon position.

It does for me, which is why I am hunting somebody else. Somebody who has not said anything at all so far and probably deserves to be either lynched or modkilled. (Emphasis on probably.)

Do you think no question is valuable enough to make this move of lynching the second scummy player ?

I mean, I only have what you have and to be honest, I am quite interested in them as well.
Especially the first question of "Can scum somehow double kill?"
The second question of "Do the scum know each other?" on the other hand seems kind of useless to me. Unless it is meta-wise. After all, game-wise they should know each other via PM started by the GM. That's how things usually go, right?

 

[Celever]

How is this ever townie as can be? He understands the problem with it as both alignments always. The question is how does he approach understanding the problem? What tone? That's the way you can infer any alignment from what he says.

This doesn't excuse him but tbf the lad just got married. Whatever post he made will have been rushed and the tone not considered. I can't believe you think a solely tone-read is in any way stronger than an ability-usage-and-tone-and-contribution-read, anyway.

So our probably townie D2 mislynch with a worse role is rid of a day earlier. Cry me a river.

Who do you think the probably townie D2 mislynch? And why do you think nothing's gonna happen between now and the end of D2 to make us not lynch them? That's a massive assumption on both fronts.

Also since when did new indies die early? Scum doesn't kill them and town doesn't like lynching newbies D1-3.

We don't like lynching newbies D1-2, and new indies usually die D3-5. New indies never really win (obviously sometimes they do and kudos to them whenever they do) but knowing they're harmful or not is not worth lynching someone who's probably town because the vast likelihood is the indie won't survive long enough to get to the point where that question would actually be relevant. Again, why do you think it's so important that we should know this? Why do you think reducing our numbers by one is a reasonable cost for the "benefit" of finding out if the indie is harmful or not? I'm really curious about your response, because it's such a weird perspective you've got rn.

And this is meta, but I can't think of a single benign indie in a PMJ game. Can you? :L

That bandwagon on Jplap doesn't ring alarm bells? It's in perfect scum bandwagon position.

The bandwagon on Mariano doesn't ring alarm bells? If Mariano's town it basically secures roz as mafia. No one on the jplap lynch is as bad as that.

I'm not letting Jplap die like I let scattered die last game despite gamestate screaming at me that Jplap has to be town or indie.

I'm sorry you had such a traumatic experience last time but that doesn't mean you should work so hard to save a mafian this time, or lynch a townie with a worse case than what this townie has, if you really think he's town.

At the very least, you should appreciate me trying to make it a day with multiple lynches that actually gives us info instead of one power wagon. So stop. :L

But this isn't a day with multiple lynches because we can't lynch multiple people in one day? Like, I think I know what you mean, but you phrased it really weirdly which makes me think maybe I don't. Any lynch today gives us info, it's been quite an info-rich Day 1, and most of it will be more useful than finding out if the indie is harmful or not. Like I really don't understand your fixation on finding this out.

Makes sense.. Jplap is scummier than Mariano, so lynching Mariano to find out whether or not he is scum is problematic. @Celever , what about the risk to lose the ability Jplap claims to have? Do you think no question is valuable enough to make this move of lynching the second scummy player ?

No, for 2 reasons. A) We have no guarantee that what he reports will be the truth and he can easily lie about his results. B) There will no doubt be several ideas of questions floating around the thread at any given time, and jplap will easily be able to choose the worst one and say "well X told me to ask this one so I went with it I thought it would be useful sorry (((((" and dumbtell his way out of it.

Plus, there hasn't yet been an idea for a question put in this thread which is equal to or better than lynching a townie. And I can't think of one, either. If you can think of a question that you think is worth lynching Mariano, who we have really no reason to suspect isn't town because his case isn't even good for RVS (and I started it so I can say that), then by all means pose it to the thread. But if you can't, I think you should continue supporting jplap's lynch over Mariano's. Because the worth of jplap's life right now relies on an easily-fakeable result to his ability, which is one of those "this ability is pretty much worthless but it feels important oo" hosts occasionally put in the game on townies to fill space at best, but the much likelier option is that it's part of his fake claim, and his real ability is more like "state a role and I'll tell you their identity", like what jplap argued he would ask as scum anyway. They probably just asked who the indie is, or did in fact ask who the seer is and a more experienced scum faked all the logs.

 

[Celever]

Well, I feel as if this is going too far because I don't see him online in this thread (though that may come because I am not too active here as well), but I agree that Roz should explain why he voted for Mariano.

He's posted since he was asked why he voted for Mariano and didn't provided explanation. He basically just said "oh good Mariano's scum" and checked out again.

 

[Zone Q11]

Any lynch today gives us info, it's been quite an info-rich Day 1, and most of it will be more useful than finding out if the indie is harmful or not. Like I really don't understand your fixation on finding this out

I concur with you in this regard.

The bandwagon on Mariano doesn't ring alarm bells? If Mariano's town it basically secures roz as mafia. No one on the jplap lynch is as bad as that.

Bandwagon on Mariano? I may have to check again, but I could have sworn it was no more than three people while jplap's wagon has six people in it.
Also, Roz's posts are too short to be alignment indicative for me, so I disagree that Roz is immediately scum if Mariano flips town.

B) There will no doubt be several ideas of questions floating around the thread at any given time, and jplap will easily be able to choose the worst one and say "well X told me to ask this one so I went with it I thought it would be useful sorry (((((" and dumbtell his way out of it.

Then why can't we simply choose one question that is asked by the majority? I mean, we have around 48 hours left, so we should be able to do it.

Plus, there hasn't yet been an idea for a question put in this thread which is equal to or better than lynching a townie.

I'm pretty sure I have been repeating scattered mind's question for a while now... Heck, I even mentioned it in my last post.
However, I am not saying that those questions are worth lynching Mariano either. I am just saying that sparing jplap for Today might be beneficial if we simply find our right question and let him ask it. Preferably something that's scum-related and not indie-related though.

He's posted since he was asked why he voted for Mariano and didn't provided explanation. He basically just said "oh good Mariano's scum" and checked out again.

Which means that he wasn't online here for too long. As I have stated before, we have about 48 hours left. Unless Roz doesn't say anything in the following 17 hours, then I have no objections whatsoever on voting him as well. (Though... @PMJ, are inactive Players -like Jade- going to be subbed or modkilled this game?)

 

[Zone Q11]

Bandwagon on Mariano? I may have to check again, but I could have sworn it was no more than three people while jplap's wagon has six people in it.

Okay, apparently it is 5 for jplap and 3 for Mariano. And then there are T_E, Nick, Drac and Jade who have yet to vote.

 

[Celever]

Bandwagon on Mariano? I may have to check again, but I could have sworn it was no more than three people while jplap's wagon has six people in it.

It was a mini-bandwagon but still a bandwagon, because all the votes piled on him very quickly and he had foreseeable momentum.

Also, Roz's posts are too short to be alignment indicative for me, so I disagree that Roz is immediately scum if Mariano flips town.

So if a post's short you don't look at the content in it? :L Admitting that they might not justify their lynch is scummy, short post or nah.

Then why can't we simply choose one question that is asked by the majority? I mean, we have around 48 hours left, so we should be able to do it.

My point is that sure, we can, but who says jplap will? He's basically being told "you're gonna get lynched at the end of Day 2 anyway" so he has no reason to do what we say if he's not town.

I'm pretty sure I have been repeating scattered mind's question for a while now... Heck, I even mentioned it in my last post.
However, I am not saying that those questions are worth lynching Mariano either. I am just saying that sparing jplap for Today might be beneficial if we simply find our right question and let him ask it. Preferably something that's scum-related and not indie-related though.

Then let's find our right question. Until we do, all other conversation is pretty much futile haha.

Which means that he wasn't online here for too long. As I have stated before, we have about 48 hours left. Unless Roz doesn't say anything in the following 17 hours, then I have no objections whatsoever on voting him as well. (Though... @PMJ, are inactive Players -like Jade- going to be subbed or modkilled this game?)

OK I'll give him time to wait, sure.

 

[PMJ]

Inactive players are almost always subbed out first, but depending on circumstances, a modkill is possible.

 

[Zone Q11]

It was a mini-bandwagon but still a bandwagon, because all the votes piled on him very quickly and he had foreseeable momentum.

Well, that momentum has stopped now and won't go any further until anyone else responds on it.

So if a post's short you don't look at the content in it? :L Admitting that they might not justify their lynch is scummy, short post or nah.

I do look at the content in it, and while Roz's last post is very easy to be read as scummy, but for me his last post is simply too short to make anything out of it. Plus, Roz didn't say anything at all regarding his vote (because he is offline), so you can't say that it is scummy out of nowhere.

My point is that sure, we can, but who says jplap will? He's basically being told "you're gonna get lynched at the end of Day 2 anyway" so he has no reason to do what we say if he's not town.

True.
...so? What about it?
If he isn't coorperative, then we lynch him.
If we know he lied to us, then we lynch him.
The only way for him to survive this game is if he cooperates and tells the truth.
It's as simple as that.

Then let's find our right question. Until we do, all other conversation is pretty much futile haha.
OK I'll give him time to wait, sure.

Good... Well then, what do you think of scattered mind's questions?

Inactive players are almost always subbed out first, but depending on circumstances, a modkill is possible.

Circumstances like not having any substitute?

 

[Mariano11887]

The last time Jlap was super active he died down after day 1. Seeing his in average posting right now might meant he really consider what he post abit.

I think NP was referring to how are you reading jplap, town or scum (or neutral).

the whole case on Jplap started because he claimed an ability result that was somewhat pro-scum but not completely? That's...interesting to say the least but I seriously think anyone who jumped on such a lame wagon should be put under some suspicion

It's Day 1. You say it was "somewhat pro-scum but not completely", I think it's more than we can expect for Day 1.

How is this ever townie as can be? He understands the problem with it as both alignments always. The question is how does he approach understanding the problem? What tone? That's the way you can infer any alignment from what he says.

What tone? I casted a RNG vote, you said it was wrong, I asked why, you explained me why, I understood it and gave you the reason. So what tone are you talking about?

That bandwagon on Jplap doesn't ring alarm bells? It's in perfect scum bandwagon position.

It's not a bandwagon. All the jplap's thing happened in a period when I was offline, I read it today and exposed it was terribily scummy. Are you going to mark as bandwagon to everyone who stays 16 hours offline and then comes and votes?

Also, Roz's posts are too short to be alignment indicative for me, so I disagree that Roz is immediately scum if Mariano flips town.

This actually makes me think something. We need to get roz explain his vote on me before the Day ends, because if I'm lynched he can mask his explanation after my flip conveniently for him. If he has something to say, some "evidence" that makes me scum, he must expose it now so when I flip town, you'll know he is scum.

I've read until Zone's post #272 only, will continue later. Sorry if something I said was already covered after that.