Finished Mafia 53: Twilight's Kingdom

[NinjaPenguin]

Oh hey I just remembered that Zone is lynchproof and I won that certamen so I can just force you all to vote him. If he's scum, town wins. If he's town, scum can just kill him and the other townie during the night. (You townies of course won't vote me in a duel because Zone has a decent amount of scum equity and I have absolutely none.)
I'll do it if Mariano and Keeper promise that if they're scum they won't kill me tonight with either of the nightkills.

I really wanted and intended to side with town this game, but I just can't do it because I'm guaranteed dying if I get it wrong and can't be confident enough in my decision sorry. D:

 

[Mariano11887]

I'm kind of tired of this back and forth with Keeper, I have no desire of exposing my points over and over. All the things I think about Keeper have been said, my vote was placed and it will remain there because he is scum in my opinion. Now it's the time for you Zone and NP to decide, specially Zone because I'm sure NP will follow what Zone votes to end the game.

Oh hey I just remembered that Zone is lynchproof and I won that certamen so I can just force you all to vote him. If he's scum, town wins. If he's town, scum can just kill him and the other townie during the night. (You townies of course won't vote me in a duel because Zone has a decent amount of scum equity and I have absolutely none.)
I'll do it if Mariano and Keeper promise that if they're scum they won't kill me tonight with either of the nightkills.

I really wanted and intended to side with town this game, but I just can't do it because I'm guaranteed dying if I get it wrong and can't be confident enough in my decision sorry. D:

NP, considering your only goal is to be alive until the end of the game, why don't you only wait for Zone's vote and vote the same player Zone does?

 

[Zone Q11]

How the heck did I not get the notifications...

If he's town, scum can just kill him and the other townie during the night.

Oi. How is this beneficial to town in any way?
Rather, you will "win" if you survive so isn't this you simply begging for you to win?
Not to mention, you literally just said:

Zone is lynchproof

Which means that if you challenge me and I don't die because of my Passive, the next Night will start with all four of us and end with three of us.
The next Day would then either have Me + Town + Scum or Town + Scum + You. If it is the former, then the decision will be all on me while if it is the latter...

I really wanted and intended to side with town this game, but I just can't do it because I'm guaranteed dying if I get it wrong and can't be confident enough in my decision sorry. D:

...you will betray town.

At this point I have a thought to lynch you, but after a quick thought I realized that that won't be beneficial for town at all. So I suppose I will have to convince you to vote.

Look here: It is literally a 50-50 between Mariano and Keeper. In my eyes though, it is definitely Keeper. I now understand that he had bluffed about the bombs (after an explanation like that, you simply cannot not understand it), but I still see a pattern:
-> Keeper bluffed about him being a bomb. It had gotten us nowhere until the present time.
-> Celever bluffed saying Luis is scum. It worked out for town.
-> Camoclone bluffed by saying he can sacrifice himself. It worked out for scum.

The pattern I see here is that of scum-town-scum. Weak argument? Sure, but let's take a look at Keeper's arguments:
-> His Ability is more useful for scum, but he has been telling them all to town. In my eyes, this looks as if he wants towncreds, but that in itself is rather WIFOM. It could be that Keeper is a deep wolf, and I am paranoid for such people.
-> Luis' Farewell Ability indicate that the final scum must have a Killing Ability and so far Mariano "coincidentally" has a Killing Ability as well, in the form of a one-time-kill. Because he is a JOAT.
Sounds like a fair argument, but do you honestly expect me to believe that Mariano couldn't have used that way earlier? Had he been scum then I would at least expect that the Killing Ability would have another requirements.
I mean, look at Luis's Lasso Ability and Scout Ability. They are similar, but the effects are totally different. I believe that if Mariano is scum, his Killing Ability would not have such requirements of "get voted first before you can kill" and he would have already used it.
Yet Mariano claimed to not have used it up before Drac's lynch. Why would he ever say that if he is scum?

These are why I think Keeper is the last scum, and the reason why I morally trust Mariano over Keeper is a) because of his tone reads that you (NP) so much love, and b) because Keeper's tone read.
A is when Mariano revealed Keeper's role/safeclaim and B is when Keeper said he was lying. I know that lying is not always bad as seen by Celever, but the tone he gave while revealing that he lied sounds too overconfident.

##VOTE: Keeper of Night

 

[PMJ]

Keeper is at L-1.

For the purposes of Gladiator there needs to be a timer, but the intent is to not allow use late in the day. It has already been 48 hours since the start of the day (half a normal day), so it can't be used now.

 

[Keeper of Night]

And that's gonna be game as soon as NP follows suit. GG to obvious scum Mariano, good thing Camo told you to get rid of Celever and Ninjas because you would have been out already otherwise.

 

[Keeper of Night]

Or it's NP, somehow. Why he's ignoring me telling him to claim is beyond me.

 

[NinjaPenguin]

NP, considering your only goal is to be alive until the end of the game, why don't you only wait for Zone's vote and vote the same player Zone does?

I'd love to but if I vote wrong, scum gets 2 NKs from BB's ability and then I'm dead. I've said this.

Which means that if you challenge me and I don't die because of my Passive, the next Night will start with all four of us and end with three of us.
The next Day would then either have Me + Town + Scum or Town + Scum + You. If it is the former, then the decision will be all on me while if it is the latter...
...you will betray town.

I never would ever betray you if it wasn't for the fact that I lose no matter what if I vote wrong I'm so sorry.

Keeper is at L-1.

For the purposes of Gladiator there needs to be a timer, but the intent is to not allow use late in the day. It has already been 48 hours since the start of the day (half a normal day), so it can't be used now.

PMJ please warn me of this next time k thx. <3

Whatever I'll play to my wincon and
##VOTE: Zone Q11

Not moving this one unless I'm very convinced somebody else is scum. Keeper and Mariano can still promise not to NK me tonight if they're scum.
Can somebody please answer my townness question? What posts have any of you made that are out of what you would do as scum?

 

[Keeper of Night]

Oh, you're right, I didn't realize you have motive to find scum now too. Fantastic, we can work with that.

But no, we can't vote Zone on the promise of no NK. For one, I can't imagine why scum would agree to that, and for another, even if Mariano /is/ town, that would mean he'd be telling the truth on his ability and could kill me tonight anyway.

I'm kind of tired of this back and forth with Keeper, I have no desire of exposing my points over and over.

You haven't had a good point yet, so I can see why you'd get tired of it. The fact you can't keep responding to my points means you don't have a solid case. Which you don't, so that's fair, but I feel the need to point it out again.

Look here: It is literally a 50-50 between Mariano and Keeper. In my eyes though, it is definitely Keeper. I now understand that he had bluffed about the bombs (after an explanation like that, you simply cannot not understand it), but I still see a pattern:
-> Keeper bluffed about him being a bomb. It had gotten us nowhere until the present time.
-> Celever bluffed saying Luis is scum. It worked out for town.
-> Camoclone bluffed by saying he can sacrifice himself. It worked out for scum.

The pattern I see here is that of scum-town-scum.

What.

Weak argument?

Yes.

Sure, but let's take a look at Keeper's arguments:
-> His Ability is more useful for scum, but he has been telling them all to town. In my eyes, this looks as if he wants towncreds, but that in itself is rather WIFOM. It could be that Keeper is a deep wolf, and I am paranoid for such people.

I'm still beyond confused why knowing hidden abilities is better for scum, when a VAST majority of the Farewell abilities have proven to be negative for town. I feel like my role is better for warning town to avoid things like giving scum double kills, or letting them bypass protection. If the majority of Farewell abilities are negative for town (save mine and Drac's, which actually ARE negative for scum) then it really doesn't matter who scum kill, does it?
But that's WIFOM, so whatever. I don't know how else I can make it clear what my ability does. Like, I'm using it right now to keep you clear, Zone.

-> Luis' Farewell Ability indicate that the final scum must have a Killing Ability and so far Mariano "coincidentally" has a Killing Ability as well, in the form of a one-time-kill. Because he is a JOAT.

Or his safe-claim is a JOAT. You know, like Camo's was.

Sounds like a fair argument, but do you honestly expect me to believe that Mariano couldn't have used that way earlier? Had he been scum then I would at least expect that the Killing Ability would have another requirements.

Because I highly doubt it's actually a solo kill, it's probably just related to the night kill, the same way Luis's was, and the way his flavor implies it.

I mean, look at Luis's Lasso Ability and Scout Ability. They are similar, but the effects are totally different. I believe that if Mariano is scum, his Killing Ability would not have such requirements of "get voted first before you can kill" and he would have already used it.

Again, he probably has no requirements to use it and they're only present in his safe-claim. Or maybe there really are these extra requirements because it'd be giving scum an opportunity to use 2 kills in a night.

Yet Mariano claimed to not have used it up before Drac's lynch. Why would he ever say that if he is scum?

What?

These are why I think Keeper is the last scum, and the reason why I morally trust Mariano over Keeper is a) because of his tone reads that you (NP) so much love, and b) because Keeper's tone read.
A is when Mariano revealed Keeper's role/safeclaim and B is when Keeper said he was lying. I know that lying is not always bad as seen by Celever, but the tone he gave while revealing that he lied sounds too overconfident.

Wait, so, let me get this straight.
I'm scum because I lied about a bomb ability (which I have, it's not a lie) and because my role was revealed?
...?

 

[PMJ]

@Keeper of Night
@NinjaPenguin
@Mariano11887
@Zone Q11

It is 3 to lynch. Numbers in parentheses represent the post number of the vote.

Keeper - Mariano (1127), Zone (1163) L-1
Mariano - Keeper (1128) Keeper (1140) L-2
Zone - NP (1167) L-2

All players voting.

It is LyLo. If scum is not lynched today, they will win.

Because it is LyLo, day 6 will only end when a player is lynched by majority; however, I reserve the right to reinstate the timer if I feel like the game has been stalled. Which will probably happen at this rate.

 

[Keeper of Night]

@NinjaPenguin I'm really not cool with you ignoring the need to post your full claim.

 

[Zone Q11]

I never would ever betray you if it wasn't for the fact that I lose no matter what if I vote wrong I'm so sorry

You do realize that you're not making it easier for us all, right? I literally just said that you have a 50-50 chance and you still go for me even after my explanation? NP, I am beginning to doubt whether me losing this game is the worst thing that will happen in this game. I am beginning to feel as if lynching you is worth my loss, so either you start voting one of the two or I start to vote you.

Not moving this one unless I'm very convinced somebody else is scum. Keeper and Mariano can still promise not to NK me tonight if they're scum.

What the heck... Dude, in what world would scum promise you to not kill you? Suppose that scum really does come and do that, then us two towns simply have to vote that guy and you will simply hammer him to finish the game. Keeper saw it and I bet even Mariano would've seen this had he been scum.

Can somebody please answer my townness question? What posts have any of you made that are out of what you would do as scum?

Mariano and I already posted the answers. Well, you can kinda already see Keeper's as well if you just read the thread normally though.

I don't know how else I can make it clear what my ability does. Like, I'm using it right now to keep you clear, Zone.

It's not that I don't understand how your Ability "is supposed to be", but more like a trust issue. We are now in a deadlock lylo, but the odds of getting scum is 50%. When all logic fails, all I can do is use my gut feeling / tone reads, and those are saying that you are more likely to be scum than Mariano.

Or his safe-claim is a JOAT. You know, like Camo's was.

Are you still saying that all scum are JOATs?

Alright pause. Do any of us know how PMJ acts as GM? Is it normal for PMJ to let one faction be filled with JOATs?

Because I highly doubt it's actually a solo kill, it's probably just related to the night kill, the same way Luis's was, and the way his flavor implies it.

Again, he probably has no requirements to use it and they're only present in his safe-claim. Or maybe there really are these extra requirements because it'd be giving scum an opportunity to use 2 kills in a night.

Hrm... At this point we are using too much "probably", which means that we are speculating things, and speculations are not good...
However these speculations are very plausible... @Mariano11887, do you have any defense to these speculations?

Wait, so, let me get this straight.
I'm scum because I lied about a bomb ability (which I have, it's not a lie) and because my role was revealed?

To be more specific, it was because of these:

Ok guys, I found a scum.
Last night I used the following ability (flavour and some other parts that give hints about my full role were removed):

I asked if I have some chance of getting their true Mafia role and not the safe claim in case I use it on a scum. PMJ answered that I'll always get the safe claim, and the wording is such that I won't know if I've found a town role or a safe claim.

My target? Keeper of Night. Here is what I get:

Spoiler: Received Keeper's role

You are Starlight Glimmer, and you are aligned with the Equestrian Defense Force.

The former leader of Our Town, you were one of many who threatened Equestria before Twilight and her friends put a stop to it. Instead of destroying you with the Elements of Harmony, however, Twilight forgave you and you became her pupil instead, learning how to be a better friend. As a natural leader, you led Discord, Trixie, and Thorax into battle against Queen Chrysalis and her changelings, and accompanied Twilight to convince Stygian, the Pony of Shadows and latest threat to Equestrian harmony, to accept friendship and reform himself, proving that Star Swirl the Bearded's mantra of "once a villain, always a villain" is far from the truth.

Active Ability: Time Twist
As a final attempt at defeating Twilight, you used a spell to go back in time to stop Rainbow Dash from performing her sonic rainboom, which was the catalyst which brought Twilight and her friends together to defeat you in the first place. Now that you're on the side of good, you can use this spell to see things normally available only after death. Once a night, you may PM me ##FORESEE: Player. You will travel to an alternate Equestria where that player has died, learn what their Farewell Ability does, and return. (If a player has multiple Farewell Abilities, you will only learn about one of them.) The spell is unstable, and you have to be careful not to affect this timeline, so you won't have enough time to discern whether or not the Farewell Ability you learn about is true, or just that of a safe claim. (You can use this ability on yourself.) (You can use this on night zero.)

Farewell Ability: The Blank Game
Locked. This ability unlocks when you die. (If you are lynched, it will appear unlocked in your flip.)


Win Condition: All threats eliminated

As you can see, the ability that learns Farewell Abilities is there. But where is the bomb thing??? Now there is no doubt that he lied about it and the result of my ability returned his safe claim.

##VOTE: Keeper of Night

I. Was. Lying. I'm really unsure how to make that clearer to you. I've done nothing but repeat that to you for literal days.

 

[Keeper of Night]

I was lying specifically about what my bomb ability does, not about being a bomb in the first place.

 

[Keeper of Night]

Luis seemed to be a soft-JOAT. He had three abilities, only one of which was single-use. He was also a name-seer and had a bullet proof vest (takes extra votes to lynch). So however you want to count that is fine.

Camo was a half-JOAT. He had one normal ability, and one ability that was tied into him being a JOAT (one ability having three effects, each being used once). His normal ability was a silencer (a player couldn't use or be affected by any abilities).
His JOAT abilities were:
- let him watch his team and make one player deathproof (weird that those are tied together, but whatever).
- prevent all other active abilities from activating that night
- buff 2 players

Mariano is the only tried-and-true JOAT we know of. And his claimed abilities are:
- vigi kill
- escort (prevents use of abilities)
- give a player +1 vote, and make them be lynched at L-1 (there's a name for this, forgot it)
- seer

There is very little cross over (name seer/full seer and escort/silencer being the closest, along with Luis's kill/vigi kill, but none of them completely cross over - each ability is unique). Knowing all this, being a JOAT certainly doesn't clear Mariano as town.

AND I JUST NOTICED Camo's Farewell ability was:

Farewell Ability: Demystify
Farewell, Trixie. You put on a good show, but it ended up being your last one ever. But your last trick might just be your best one yet. The effects of each of your surviving allies' Farewell Abilities will be posted in the Deadly Alliance factional QuickTopic. If you were lynched, the Farewell Abilities of two randomly chosen EDF-aligned players who were on your lynch wagon will also be given to your team. (Your team will learn to whom the abilities belong.)

He was the scum Farewell seer. Kinda. I can't think of any other more solid evidence for my town case then this.

 

[Zone Q11]

I was lying specifically about what my bomb ability does, not about being a bomb in the first place.

...I see.

There is very little cross over (name seer/full seer and escort/silencer being the closest, along with Luis's kill/vigi kill, but none of them completely cross over - each ability is unique). Knowing all this, being a JOAT certainly doesn't clear Mariano as town.

AND I JUST NOTICED Camo's Farewell ability was:
He was the scum Farewell seer. Kinda. I can't think of any other more solid evidence for my town case then this.

Well then, this is... a logical proof. Again @Mariano11887, do you have any defense to these claims?

 

[NinjaPenguin]

@NinjaPenguin I'm really not cool with you ignoring the need to post your full claim.

Why? There's no actual need for this. I've ignored it every time to see how you react and I'm not getting why you're doing this.

Spoiler: Role

You are Discord, and you are aligned with yourself.

A draconequus and spirit of disharmony, you were initially Equestria's ruler, plunging the land into chaos before Celestia and Luna imprisoned you in stone with the Elements of Harmony. Once you were freed, you went right back to causing chaos, but Twilight and her friends imprisoned you in stone again, using the Elements. Later, Celestia had Twilight and her friends intentionally set you free, with the idea that you could be reformed and your chaotic magic used for the forces of good. Fluttershy was the only one willing to give you a chance, and you took advantage of her kindness before realizing she truly saw you as a friend and you reformed for good. The two of you remain very close friends. In this conflict, you're not picking a side. What kind of spirit of chaos would you be if you did that? No, it's time to have some fun and start trolling. No one is safe!

Passive Ability: Duplication
You possess the ability to duplicate yourself into an unlimited number of copies, which you can use to avoid death. The first time you would be lynched or otherwise die, a duplicate will take the hit for you instead, allowing you to survive. If you were lynched, the day will end with no lynch.

Active Ability: Mark
You wield chaotic magic, creating things like chocolate rain and flying pigs, or stairs that lead nowhere. Now you can use this magic to really get into others' heads. Once a night, you may PM me ##MARK: Player with [mark]. That player will wake up the next day to find himself marked in the way you describe. This mark has no effect, but everyone will sure think it does! The mark can be just about anything you think of, so get creative! (You can use this on night zero.)

Active Ability: Storm of Chaos
You are the spirit of chaos. It's no fun when things go exactly as planned. Once a game during any night, you may PM me ##RANDOMIZE. The targets of all Active Abilities, including the night kill, will be randomly assigned. (The night kill cannot be redirected to another member of the Deadly Alliance in this way.) You can't use this ability the same night you use Secrets Revealed or Hurry It Up.

Active Ability: Secrets Revealed
Both factions have reasons for keeping their dealings during the night a secret, but it would certainly be something if all of those secrets came to light. Once a game during any night, you may PM me ##NO SECRETS. The following day, the names of every player that used an Active Ability, and who they targeted with it, will be displayed publicly. (The night kill will not be included in this report.) You can't use this ability the same night you use Storm of Chaos or Hurry It Up. This ability locks on day four.

Active Ability: Hurry It Up
You wish that everyone would just hurry up and be done with this conflict already. Once a game during any night, you may PM me ##HURRY UP. The next day, you will generously mess with space-time and allow the day to continue until two players are lynched, regardless of how long it takes. Once the first player is lynched, all votes will be reset and the same day will continue until a second player has been lynched. (This will still happen if you are lynched first.) Since you will be busy messing with space-time while this is going on, there is a 50% chance you will not be lynched if you are voted to be lynched on either day. In that case, that particular day will end with no lynch. You can't use this ability the same night you use Storm of Chaos or Secrets Revealed.

Farewell Ability: Secret Friendship
Locked. This ability unlocks when you die. (If you are lynched, it will appear unlocked in your flip.)

Farewell Ability: Ending Shoot
Locked. This ability unlocks when you die. (If you are lynched, it will appear unlocked in your flip.)


Win Condition: Survive until the end of the game

I literally just said that you have a 50-50 chance and you still go for me even after my explanation?

There's no guarantee you're not scum FMPOV. Even if there was, shockingly 100>50.

However these speculations are very plausible... @Mariano11887, do you have any defense to these speculations?

Role speculations are ridiculous. You also must realize yourself that role spec arguments are ridiculous because they point to you as likely scum. Because you don't have " scum faction had another JOAT" or "Camo's Farewell did a thing that's different".

I can't think of any other more solid evidence for my town case then this

What about your posting rather than your role and the role of others? Or is your posting just all scummy because that's your faction?

 

[Keeper of Night]

Why would I not want all info available to me? I'm trying to win, and you're not clear either. Win-Con says eliminate all threats, OP says we have to decide what is or is not a threat. And we know for a fact you ain't town, which is a solid start. Now that I have it (yay it didn't break inside the spoiler) I'll be looking at it just the same as I am with everyone else's.

Zone has a very slim chance of being scum, but honestly even if he is we lose anyway. If he's scum then Camo would be tunneling him for major town cred and to "prove" Zone's claim, because they both know he'd survive the lynch anyway. He's 100% going to survive us trying to lynch him, which means he wins if he's scum regardless. So eh.

Why are role speculations ridiculous? They're concrete evidence of the game from the host. Direct information to work with. Why wouldn't we use that?

What do you even mean my posting? My posting has all been to solve the game. Has been from my literal first post, if you recall.
I get that you and I play this game very differently, but I'm here to solve a problem and win a game, not try and read people's feelings.
And I suppose it wouldn't matter what I think of my own posting, would it? So that's entirely on you. I'm going to keep working the way I am because it involves actual evidence, and you can make of that what you wish. But denying facts as I've presented them is just silly.

 

[Keeper of Night]

Zone has a very slim chance of being scum, but honestly even if he is we lose anyway. If he's scum then Camo would be tunneling him for major town cred and to "prove" Zone's claim, because they both know he'd survive the lynch anyway. He's 100% going to survive us trying to lynch him, which means he wins if he's scum regardless. So eh.

Actually, I'm gonna go ahead and scratch that. If he was lynch-proof scum I highly doubt PMJ would let the game keep going. He either not lynch-proof or not scum. All evidence points towards the latter.

 

[Mariano11887]

I'd love to but if I vote wrong, scum gets 2 NKs from BB's ability and then I'm dead. I've said this.

It's Lylo, doesn't the game end as soon as someone is lynched today? @PMJ can you answer it please?

You haven't had a good point yet, so I can see why you'd get tired of it. The fact you can't keep responding to my points means you don't have a solid case. Which you don't, so that's fair, but I feel the need to point it out again.

My case on you was already exposed. In case your claimed role is true, you didn't play with a town mentality and you only worried about surviving, there was no need to lie about your Farewell Ability.
But if you are scum, of course it gives you an excellent excuse to be alive right now. "Yay, scum didn't kill me because they knew they'd lose a member".

I'm still beyond confused why knowing hidden abilities is better for scum, when a VAST majority of the Farewell abilities have proven to be negative for town. I feel like my role is better for warning town to avoid things like giving scum double kills, or letting them bypass protection. If the majority of Farewell abilities are negative for town (save mine and Drac's, which actually ARE negative for scum) then it really doesn't matter who scum kill, does it?

- As town, if you see someone scummy, would you not lynch him because you know his Farewell Ability affects the town negatively? No! And if your response is yes, how do you plan to win if is not by lynching scum??
- As scum, knowing many player's Farewell Abilities, who do you choose to kill? Of course the one with the Farewell Ability that is less harmfull for Mafia.
Do you see the difference in the utility of knowing Farewell Abilities?

Or his safe-claim is a JOAT. You know, like Camo's was.

Yeah, my safe-claim is a JOAT with abilities that have been proven to be used during the game. Because it's obvious scum can use abilities from their safe-claims. (It's sarcasm, in case you didn't notice).

Because I highly doubt it's actually a solo kill, it's probably just related to the night kill, the same way Luis's was, and the way his flavor implies it.

Again, he probably has no requirements to use it and they're only present in his safe-claim. Or maybe there really are these extra requirements because it'd be giving scum an opportunity to use 2 kills in a night.

Hrm... At this point we are using too much "probably", which means that we are speculating things, and speculations are not good...
However these speculations are very plausible... @Mariano11887, do you have any defense to these speculations?

How is it possible that the role I posted is a safe-claim if my last 3 abilities have been proven to be used?
And the first one (the vig) I tried to use it on Drac and failed, which then PMJ said he had some kind of protection and should not have been lynched.
If my vig ability had no requirements, why would I have not used it last night?

AND I JUST NOTICED Camo's Farewell ability was:
He was the scum Farewell seer. Kinda. I can't think of any other more solid evidence for my town case then this.

Ha, more evidence to think that your ability to read Farewell Abilities is designed to be used on town members, because the moment Camo dies, scum know their own FAs.

 

[Zone Q11]

Oh lord. This Day isn't going to end, is it?
Can we have the timer back?

 

[PMJ]

If scum isn't lynched today, there is nothing that can stop them from killing the other two townies to win.

Day ends 4 pm cst tomorrow.