Finished Mafia LI: Senate Subterfuge~Game Over!

[PMJ]

Response to bbninjas

Here's the glaring problem with PMJ's case: it's underpinned by WIFOM - he spins my posts in the worst possible way. This is the result of PMJ beginning with the assumption that I'm mafian from the very start, instead of coming to that conclusion as a byproduct of reading my posts. (I'll point these out below.) This never works because all you get is a massive bias - and for those interested, this is why its said that vets can make anyone look scummy.

Do you think I picked your name out of a hat or something and then built my case around that? As I said before, I did not assume you were scum at first. It became clearer the more I looked into your posts.

Secondly, the case is misinformed. The situation, context or even what I specifically wrote has been overlooked, and points do not make sense when all things are accurately considered.

Sure. I'm looking forward to ripping your defense to shreds.

Right from the bat, we see the underpinning WIFOM. What evidence is there to say that I'm "damage controling"?

You are trying to explain away Tapu Lele's role fishing, something that was pointed out as scummy. He's still new, after all, and makes mistakes like this.

Why is me being innocent, and just posting my thoughts on the matter because thats what I do, not being considered here at all?

Meta read: argument discarded.

Your innocence was not considered because the content of your posts in relation to your dealings with Tapu Lele strongly suggest you are also scum. Viewing your posts in this light makes your true motives clear.

Here we have a few problems. Again, why do you say that I'm "looking" like town? Why is me actually being town left unconsidered? (More assuming the worst possible motive.)

See above

Secondly, why is justifying my question a problem? I was answering the inevitable, since I knew my question could be scummy, although I believed it to be a question necessary. To see this as scummy, you would also have to find my justification bonkers, or disagree at the very least, which would be rather odd in itself.

Role fishing is never necessary. You just wanted info about the reward to discuss with the scum team. As for your reason for asking, yes, it would be good to keep all the certamen rewards out of scum hands. Obviously. That's not really something that needs to be said. It plays to your need to appear 0% scummy.

Is there a problem with asking someone for their motive? I was not "conveniently forgetting" (exaggerated language - another example of spinnging what I say). I knew my motive, but I was interested as to what Jplap might say his to be.

There is when you're asking about someone's role or abilities.

I am not going to split hairs with you regarding my word choice for your decision to ignore your earlier fish for certamen details. This is how I know your defense is trash; you have to resort to attacking the words I use instead of the actual argument.

I do not see this post's relevance, how I was apparently damage controlling, and how I was defending Tapu (I didn't give any defences, after all) - let alone how I defended hard.

You are trying to push the focus off of Tapu Lele by suggesting scattered as someone else to look at. It's not as blatant as saying "don't lynch Tapu Lele," but the end goal is the same.

Again, preempting questions is not problematic, let alone massively scummy.

Yes it is. Townies don't feel like they have to defend themselves against everything.

I would have been skeptical of anyone who might try and use hindsight to blame someone like Celever for T_E's mislynch (over Lele, a revealed mafian), and I wanted to clear up that this is not want I'm trying to do immediately.

Of course. Because it simply wouldn't do for anyone to think you could possibly be mafia.

The entire post was a diversion to draw attention off the fact that Tapu Lele had just been outed as scum.

Again, PMJ assumes the worst of the situation. My motive being 'a formality' is the picture that makes most sense in this case, and so he pushes for this line.

There is nothing to assume here. Tapu Lele was going to get lynched with or without your vote, but not voting for the confirmed scum would look suspicious. So yes, the vote is a formality. You did it so no one could say you didn't, and use it against you.

Instead, you unvoted, so I can use that against you instead!

Thanks for again attacking my words instead of the argument.

Surprise: PMJ assumes the worst in the situation. In fact, PMJ knows and used to lament that no one used their scumchat to plan things - so the fact that he suggests that was happening on WIFOM is a very odd.

If I ever said that, it was years ago, before your time on this site. Times have changed and scum teams have sucked less.

I'm not sure why you bring this up, in any case. Your posts read like a coached defense.

(less WIFOMy than some of the conclusions you've pulled in this case!)

Untrue.

to show Dos that the FoS doesn't quite make sense, and that's why I wanted to some elaboration. Not scummy.

Posting wifom was not necessary to do that.

No response to me outing Celever as your scum buddy? Interesting.

Sorry, what's the problem? The whole discussion around Lele wasn't actually going anywhere, and so I was gathering information that would be potentially helpful for future reads when Lele flipped.

The discussion around Lele wasn't going anywhere because at that point the day was almost over and he was going to get lynched, despite your best efforts. Any information Tapu Lele could have given us in the last few hours of the day couldn't be 100% trusted anyway, so there was no point in asking him for his reads or who he'd want lynched. That is actually wifom.

a) Are you seriously suggesting that I listed off reasons to doubt Lele's flip, expecting people to change their vote?

Yepperdoodles.

Because if I did not expect people to flip, I would not stick my neck out there to defend Lele, as you suggest I was.

W I F O M

b) The previous couple of pages were talking about whether or not Lele would flip town or mafian. I gave reasons as to why Lele might flip town, since I thought the bastard mod talk was a bit silly.

But he was host-confirmed scum. Hosts haven't given any reason not to trust them so until that happens there is no reason not to trust them. So spelling out a bunch of ways that Lele might flip town served no purpose except to try, one last time, to get people to change their minds.

c) Never did I say that we should doubt Tapu Lele's lynch.

Not directly, no, but you spent all of day two trying to convince us that his revealed role might not be real. That's the same thing.

d) Never did I say that NP and Vracken are bastard mods.

Again, not directly, no. But, as I said, you suggested it, after amending the post in question.

Unfortunately "bbn is a mafian trying to look like town, so he is mafian" is a terrible WIFOM argument.

You know, for all the shitting on my case you and Celever are doing, neither one of you seem to be able to get the details of my accusations against you completely correct. You are scum because you wasted an entire game day coming to the defense of host-confirmed scum and tried to save him from being lynched. Looking at the interaction between you and Tapu Lele and how you treated him during the end of day one and all of day two makes this crystal clear, and reveals more sinister motives in otherwise innocent-looking posts made earlier in the game. Every post you make that you believe could be construed as scummy comes with its own immediate defense, which shows you're operating with a mafian's mindset. Even your rebuttal of my case is lacking, resorting to attacking my word choices in several instances instead of defending yourself against my argument (which boils down to "assuming the worst, this is wifom" - great defense).

 

[PMJ]

Response to scattered mind featuring a guest appearance by Jabberwock

The whole behaviour of PMJ is odd to me. He is going out of his way to lynch bb over something that I can't see: bb trying to defend Lele.

Are you serious? Did you even read my case? He doesn't have to explicitly post "don't lynch Tapu Lele" or "Tapu Lele is town" to defend him.

If anything it was Celever.

I don't have a case on Celever (yet), but I do find it worthy of note that Tapu Lele voted for Celever in the patrol certamen. Keep in mind that these votes were cast before Tapu Lele's role was revealed, so assuming that they couldn't vote for themselves to receive the prize, it would make perfect sense for Tapu Lele to vote for one of his buddies. After all, there was no reason to expect Tapu Lele to be outed as scum, so there was less incentive to keep their connection secret.

Scum bbninjas would be busy writing cases on people. This bbninjas is more like trying to gather all the pieces to find what is going on.

Meta read, argument discarded. I can't believe you guys actually put stock in this. Meta is painfully easy to fake.

Also, bbninjas could not know lele was scum before the flip.

Come on. bb would know Lele was scum before the flip if they were both scum. Get it together, this entire post is massively uninformed.

Also, I feel like the main weapon everyone is using in this game is WIFOM.

That's because my case on bbninjas is Brock the Rock Solid and the only wisp of a chance bbninjas and Celever have at not seeing bb twist in the wind today is by dismissing everything I say as baseless wifom. Neither of them actually believe anything they are saying, but as scum buddies who are both in the spotlight, they have to pull out all the stops to try and discredit me.

And I think it goes to show how truly clueless we are in this stage of the game right now. We need to do some back work here because I personally do not get any more info on bb or Celever than I already have, and these full-page sized posts about each one back and forth do not help at all.

No reason we can't do this during day 4 when I put Celever in my sights. We'll have plenty more info.

I'm gonna ##vote:luispipe for now, because he is just one of the many players flying under the rader + veteran + used to talk more

NEW INFO, that's what I want for now, and what I think we all should try and get.

We will have all sorts of info after bb dies.

Meta reads helped me catch scums more than once. You never used meta reads?

I won't say never because I'm sure I did in the past, but I don't trust them anymore.

Anyhow, I didn’t just use meta read on bbninjas. I wrote other things about why your case is not convincing.

Did you? If you're talking about the uninformed mess at the start of your post, then you need to reread because I don't know how I could possibly be more clear.

This post is ridiculous lol.

nah

 

[Scattered mind]

Come on. bb would know Lele was scum before the flip if they were both scum. Get it together, this entire post is massively uninformed.

I remember it was established earlier that lele was not in the scumcha.. wait.

Looking at the role it seems clear that he didn't have contact with the rest of the scum team, but also that the basement is just a different take on a mason chat. If there were role things like BPV attached to it then that should have been in the role flip.

@Celever - What made you think that according to this role flip, Tapu Lele had no connections with the scumchat?

You are Publius Servilius Rullus, and you are aligned with the Triumvirate. You are most known for introducing an agrarian bill that really upset Cicero, who claimed that you were a puppet of the populares Crassus and Caesar. Which is admittedly true, except for the fact that you can’t find them yet…


Passive Ability: Trapped in the Curia
You have been trapped in the basement of Curia with two other players, both Loyalists! You’re in trouble… unless you can find a way to trick them into letting you go. You have access to the Basement QuickTopic.
The details of the Basement QuickTopic and the account you are to post in it will be given to you in a separate PM. The rules of the Basement QuickTopic will be explained in its first post.


Win Condition: Eliminate all the Loyalists.

 

[Scattered mind]

Are you serious? Did you even read my case? He doesn't have to explicitly post "don't lynch Tapu Lele" or "Tapu Lele is town" to defend him.

I now see what you meant. But I still see bbninjas' posts regarding lele as mainly responsive to the theory that he might be town in a bastard mode game, which was made mainly by Celever. So it surprises me that you would go after the one who commented, rather the one who made the whole thing discussed heavily.

 

[Yog]

Okay, sorry for not being around more, but the weekend is my only real luxury time here. I will read through where I can now.

For the record, I did get to follow the game some before I was officially playing. The players that stood out as suss in the follow through of Lele's reveal for me were BB, Jabber and I'd like if we didn't overlook Osha's contribution either.

 

[Scattered mind]

Okay, sorry for not being around more, but the weekend is my only real luxury time here. I will read through where I can now.

For the record, I did get to follow the game some before I was officially playing. The players that stood out as suss in the follow through of Lele's reveal for me were BB, Jabber and I'd like if we didn't overlook Osha's contribution either.

You mean this post (the only one he made):

##discard Tapu Lele,


Becouse I needed to pay 40 euros to get Tapu Lele for my deck...

What exactly do you mean by not overlooking it? What should we make of this?

 

[GM DracLord]

Okay, sorry for not being around more, but the weekend is my only real luxury time here. I will read through where I can now.

For the record, I did get to follow the game some before I was officially playing. The players that stood out as suss in the follow through of Lele's reveal for me were BB, Jabber and I'd like if we didn't overlook Osha's contribution either.

That was a sudden name drop

 

[Luispipe8]

Oh, wonderful, I trigger e-mail notifications so I don't miss anything and they don't show up. Forums just hate me ;-;
I'll catch up throughout the afternoon (While judging a tourney :'v) and post once I'm back home.

 

[mordacazir]

Hammering is non-alignment indicative in this situation because we already knew Tapu Lele was scum and the deadline was very nearly upon us.

We didn’t 100% know Tapu Lele was scum. And more time in the day gives people more time to post which is a good thing. (Aka me but I was lucky I could keep my post). Hammering is similar to stopping discussion which imo isn’t a good thing. Any reason why you do think the hammer was a good thing?

I think that motive is just wanting to fit in.

##VOTE: Acetratiner_Samwise for his slip yesterday and pushing a faulty case today.

Only scum should think about fitting in, town shouldn’t. Doesn’t that make Gekki’s hammer inherently scum?

To everyone who is actually town, bb spent a good chunk of day one and all of day two trying to prevent confirmed scum from being lynched. This was more than an accidental buddy of someone new, it was a deliberate effort to defend confirmed scum. The majority of bb's help came after we knew Lele's alignment.

This ‘confirmed scum’ is stupid. Yes in the end you were right but in mafia you shouldn’t trust anything.

As expected, the """""case""""" on Samwise is a total crock and a complete fabrication crafted by a panicking scum team because I pegged both Celever and bbninjas as scum and I won't rest until they're both six feet under.

Tunneling

Yeah except most of PMJ's "case" isn't alignment-indicative, and what is has long been established as bb's playstyle regardless of faction, like the whole "caring too much about how he appears in his posts" thing bb does as town and scum to edifying degrees, exactly the same with how you don't care how people see your posts Jabs and talk all scary and confident and stuff :L

This makes me think that bb is actually town (before my read of him was scum), but after also reading BB’s reply I’m not entirely sure.

Scum bbninjas would be busy writing cases on people.

True

@mordacazir - Some input from you would be great - you have improved greatly in recent games, but now all of a sudden you are staying in the back

Sorry. Dont have much time lately I’ve been busy testing for NAIC.

Stop using meta to justify or discredit behavior. It's ridiculous.

What do you dislike about metareading?

Nothing. Meta reads are worthless because people can and do alter the way they play. It doesn't take much as scum to make a conscious effort to mimic the way you play as town.

This is fair enough but not everyone can alter their playstyle that easily.

nah

10 out of 1o response boys and girls -_-

 

[NinjaPenguin]

@mordacazir
@Professor_jplap
@scattered mind
@GekkisaiDaiNi
@Jadethepokemontrainer
@GM DracLord
@Jabberwock
@Luispipe8
@Celever
@Acetrainer_Samwise
@TeamAqua4Life #HEYNICK
@PMJ
@bbninjas
@mirdo
@Yog
@OshaCraft360

There is one hour left for this phase of the certamen and nowhere near even half of you have submitted a location. It will only take you 30 seconds to respond and conveys an a power if you win, so I'd suggest you ought to be doing that if you haven't done so already.

 

[NinjaPenguin]

Vote Count 2​

bbninjas (2): PMJ, Jabberwock
@GekkisaiDaiNi (2): Acetainer_Samwise
Acetrainer_Samwise (1): Celever
Luispipe8 (1): scattered mind

Abstaining:
@mordacazir, @Professor_jplap, GekkisaiDaiNi, @Jadethepokemontrainer, GM Draclord, @Luispipe8, @TeamAqua4Life #HEYNICK, @bbninjas, @mirdo, @Yog, @OshaCraft360

Players yet to post twice today have been tagged (players yet to post have been notified via Discord), along with the player who would be lynched if the day ended right now (GekkisaiDaiNi).

It's not my problem that no votes were cast and only 11 posts were may, but you should know the day phase is halfway over and I'm tagging over half the game for inactivity. Not a great look. I'm much more upset at the certamen results, as shown below. Remember that this prize is helpful for both alignments, so there's absolutely no excuse for any of you not participating in this while you can.

---

100Certamen: Venator Celebrus Results​

A total of only four players submitted a location. Here are their responses:
Professor_jplap: Baths
Acetrainer_Samwise: Curia
GM DracLord: Walls
bbninjas: Baths

This means that GM DracLord and Acetrainer_Samwise have won the power to create neighborhood chats! Just PM us the two players you want to be in the chat and we'll create it for you as soon as we can.

 

[PMJ]

I now see what you meant. But I still see bbninjas' posts regarding lele as mainly responsive to the theory that he might be town in a bastard mode game, which was made mainly by Celever. So it surprises me that you would go after the one who commented, rather the one who made the whole thing discussed heavily.

I haven't really looked at Celever's posts, but it's good to hear that he apparently set this in motion. Doesn't mean much because they're both definitely scum.

We didn’t 100% know Tapu Lele was scum.

Yes we did. The hosts said he was scum. We have no reason to think that the hosts are liars, so the simplest explanation is that they are telling the truth.

And more time in the day gives people more time to post which is a good thing. (Aka me but I was lucky I could keep my post).

Not with so little time left in the day. When gek hammered there were about three hours left. It would have been much different if there had been a lot more time left.

Hammering is similar to stopping discussion which imo isn’t a good thing. Any reason why you do think the hammer was a good thing?

Hammering in the last few hours of the day on someone we knew was scum is fine. There wasn't anything new that could have been said other than Tapu Lele sowing the seeds of bullshit and wifom.

I don't think the hammer was specifically good, just a thing that happened. The timing of it wasn't scummy, just a thing. Would be nice if @GekkisaiDaiNi posted more though because he's looking kinda good for a day 5 lynch.

This ‘confirmed scum’ is stupid. Yes in the end you were right but in mafia you shouldn’t trust anything.

You can trust the host. Outside of bastard games (which this game isn't), the host is the one source of information people rely on as being completely true.

Tunneling

Yes, I will not deny this. When I believe I've found scum, I tunnel them hard. I would rather guess wrong than lay off and let scum go. We have room to mislynch, especially because we got a scum so early in the game.

What do you dislike about metareading?

I explained this in my reply to Celever. Relying on meta reads pigeonholes players into playing a certain way and this can be easily abused by scum. All they have to do is play their "town meta" and use it to discredit any suspicion. Notice that Celever, bbninjas, and scattered mind all tried to discredit my argument by playing the "this is how bb plays as town" meta card. This completely excuses scummy play and instead of letting bbninjas get away with it, he should be held accountable.

Anyone who knows they have a "town meta" can exploit this fact when playing as scum.

This is fair enough but not everyone can alter their playstyle that easily.

I bet bbninjas can. He's been relying on the "this is my town meta, guys" argument all game long.

10 out of 1o response boys and girls -_-

Not really much else I could have said to that, I was gonna just say no u but after typing out three lengthy responses I couldn't be bothered with an extra keystroke.


Certamen results are not surprising. I intentionally did not cast my vote because the reward is useless but in hindsight I probably should have tried to at least win it to help make sure scum didn't get it. Not everyone feels the same way I do about neighbors.

 

[Jabberwock]

FoS on bb for sparing the time to PM NP for the certamen, but not to come up with literally any reads for me.

You can trust the host. Outside of bastard games (which this game isn't), the host is the one source of information people rely on as being completely true.

We didn't know that at the time, and there was reason to suspect there was something up with the reveal. Mainly that NP is known to hate straight seer roles.

Yes, I will not deny this. When I believe I've found scum, I tunnel them hard. I would rather guess wrong than lay off and let scum go. We have room to mislynch, especially because we got a scum so early in the game.

Okay number one: that's an anti-town mindset. Number two: you're suddenly waaaaay less confident that bb will flip scum.

I explained this in my reply to Celever. Relying on meta reads pigeonholes players into playing a certain way and this can be easily abused by scum. All they have to do is play their "town meta" and use it to discredit any suspicion. Notice that Celever, bbninjas, and scattered mind all tried to discredit my argument by playing the "this is how bb plays as town" meta card. This completely excuses scummy play and instead of letting bbninjas get away with it, he should be held accountable.

Anyone who knows they have a "town meta" can exploit this fact when playing as scum.

But anyone who has a scum meta, by definition, does not exploit that fact.

I bet bbninjas can. He's been relying on the "this is my town meta, guys" argument all game long.

But yeah that bothers me. Especially because I can't remember there being a sharp difference between how bb plays as scum and how he plays as town.

 

[PMJ]

We didn't know that at the time,

We knew it for all of day two. It would be dumb to not take all of day one's posts into account, knowing this.

and there was reason to suspect there was something up with the reveal. Mainly that NP is known to hate straight seer roles.

If there is no seer in the setup, then a one-shot seer role is fine and not at all a straight seer role. It was just a lucky hit that T_E hit scum.

Okay number one: that's an anti-town mindset.

It's the truth.

Number two: you're suddenly waaaaay less confident that bb will flip scum.

No, I am still 100% confident in my choice. I think you misunderstood what I meant when I said we have room to mislynch. It's day three and we've already gotten one scum down. That gives us a little breathing room - it's not the end of the world if bb flips town.

That said, bb's play has been nothing but scummy in every way, so I don't think he will. If he does then it's his own fault for playing and acting scummy enough to get lynched.

But anyone who has a scum meta, by definition, does not exploit that fact.

Sure they do. Anyone who knows they have a scum meta will (should) go out of their way to make sure they don't play similarly. The end result is players adopting their town meta as scum, rendering meta reads about that player literally worthless because there is no distinguishing between the two.

But yeah that bothers me. Especially because I can't remember there being a sharp difference between how bb plays as scum and how he plays as town.

Yes, that's the point. If bb's town meta is the same as or similar to his scum meta then he can excuse all his scummy play (his scum meta) as his town meta, which is exactly what bb, Celever, and scattered mind have all done.

@everyone should work for the forums.

 

[Acetrainer_Samwise]

Since this is only my second game"meta" reads aren't enough to warrant a vote.


I think it could do us some good to lynch some the less active players. Nick, Gekki, Mirdo are a few examples. When they do post its not super helpful and they're barely active (one could accuse me of the same thing) (no offense anybody).

If we lynch a few of them we're bound to catch a scum sooner or later.

As @PMJ says "we have time" (Lele's lynch) its not the end of the world if there are a few miss lynches.

It doesn't have to be today but I don't like the idea of lynching all the active players just because they post.

 

[Acetrainer_Samwise]

Since this is only my second game"meta" reads aren't enough to warrant a vote.


I think it could do us some good to lynch some the less active players. Nick, Gekki, Mirdo are a few examples. When they do post its not super helpful and they're barely active (one could accuse me of the same thing) (no offense anybody).

If we lynch a few of them we're bound to catch a scum sooner or later.

As @PMJ says "we have time" (Lele's lynch) its not the end of the world if there are a few miss lynches.

It doesn't have to be today but I don't like the idea of lynching all the active players just because they post.

 

[Acetrainer_Samwise]

I don't know why that posted twice.... but ok...I guess

 

[PMJ]

Change your vote.

 

[bbninjas]

If there is something specific that PMJ said that someone would like me to respond to, please tag. I'm not going to respond to everything individually, as I'd be repeating myself and causing back-and-forth meaningless clutter (not to mention wasting everyone's time) - and I reckon only two or three of you would actually read it. I'll respond to the main points collectively, instead:

RE: Point 1: "for latter Day 1 and entire Day 2, bbn was attempting to get people off the Lele case."

Main Evidence: "Damage controlling". Saying that Lele's rolefishing during Day 1 is Not Alignment Indicative. Expressing uncertainty over what Lele would flip.
​

PMJ is convinced that I was trying to stop Lele from being lynched, passively or actively. Example [link]: "[bbn] spent all of day two trying to convince us that his [Lele's] revealed role might not be true". This is completely false - I never advocated against lynching Lele (in fact, I advocated the opposite - saying that "Lele should definitely be lynched today"), and my uncertainty over the real role only cropped up much later in the day (far from this entire day idea that PMJ has been pushing). In fact, it is my speculative post* - my last post of the day - that has been taken as the basis for my apparent motive, that is, to get people off the Lele wagon (see: "Yepperdoodles"; the idea is that I was sowing doubt). This, however, does not make sense. How could I be advocating for Lele to be lynched, yet still trying to get people off the wagon? That would have been heavily counterproductive to my motive, and would render my apparent last-ditch attempt unbelievably ineffective and meaningless - it's not going to cause people to move their vote. Even if we were to go with this theory, we would have to also assume the following things - and that would be radically unprecedented (in the spoiler):

Spoiler: assumptions that would have been made

- Saying Lele should be lynched, but trying to get people off the wagon anyway would have been incredibly and obviously inconsistent. To have made such an error, you would have to assume that I had either a) forgotten what I said earlier (very unlikely, considering I said or implied it on multiple occasions) OR b) that I'm incapable of recognising such an obvious error in thinking (i.e. that I'm incompetent).
- I think there was ~6 votes on the Lele wagon when I posted my uncertainty about how they might flip. Moving that many votes, that late into the day, would be near-impossible. Why didn't I "cast doubt" earlier, when there was little support for the wagon (and conversely, placed pressure on Lele)? I can't think of any reason as to why this would happen for anyone, aside from a) incompetency.
- Any votes that fell from the wagon would have had to go elsewhere, yet I never provided an alternative. You'd have to assume that I either was a) hoping that someone else would lead a convincing wagon (which does not make sense, because I would have put myself out there for no reason) OR b) incompetency.​

*scattered mind is correct in saying that this post was simply my response to the speculative discussion a page or so earlier.

RE: Point 2: "bbninjas has been playing in a scum mindset / has scum motives."

Main Evidence: I'm caring too much about how I appear. Specifically; Justifying questions that could be perceived as anti-town or otherwise problematic. (When meta is invoked, PMJ says that meta is insubstantial as a defense.)
​

Well, there's not too much to defend here because the point boils down to subjective beliefs over what are tells, and what are not. PMJ reckons that only mafians should care about how they appear, and I disagree. I've already said that this is what I do, and why I think justifying myself is necessary and pro-town. I'm a self-aware person. If I am to deviate from the norm in what I ask or say, especially if people have FoS such an action in the past, I will normally realise that and notice it. If people are probably going to have qualms, I will explain or justify myself to save everyone's time, and in some cases, so people can't just deflect answering by saying "that's scummy". (An example would be when I questioned Celever over his position on T_E versus his position on Lele, and explained that I'm not pulling a hindsight abuse.) PMJ's response to this meta-inclined defense is again subjective and boils down to disagreeing over what is valid reasoning - PMJ says that meta-reads are ineffective, and I disagree to an extent.

There are a few other instances where PMJ claims that I have a malicious motive, but I still believe that PMJ is twisting what I say to develop these, and is only considering the side that is mafian-indicative when facing potential WIFOM (hence why I say he's constructed this case under the assumption that I'm mafian, and not coming to that conclusion naturally). The specific instances of this I point in my defense here.

Your innocence was not considered because the content of your posts in relation to your dealings with Tapu Lele strongly suggest you are also scum. Viewing your posts in this light makes your true motives clear.

This method fo scumhunting is majorly flawed, because if you were to look at everyone's posts in a light that suggests they are mafian, then of course they will look scummy! A veteran can make virtually anything said look scummy, with the correct argument - but that doesn't make it indicative. A very real example: PMJ is tunneling me (as you admitted), and as evident by the tone of his posts, and how he is working in absolutes. If I was to look at this from a scum-light, then your "motive" would be to get a fairly active and experienced player mislynched (instead of, say, using that precious nightkill). PMJ is saturating the thread with accusations against me, some highly exaggerating, and many misinformed or not indicative, to take advantage of a sheepy and quite town who will nearly always follow the most pushy and vocal player. This is a very real possibility, but isn't also very WIFOMy? In the same way, the claims made about my motives are just as WIFOMy - and would be equivalent to me taking a stab in the dark.

tl;dr

For Point 1: (that I was trying to get people off Lele's lynch).
- I advocated FOR Lele's lynch, not against it. How could I have been casting doubt over the flip (to get people to move their vote), when I was also saying that Lele should definitely be lynched?

For Point 2: (that my mindset is one of a mafian).
- This is a highly subjective argument, as it depends on whether or not me being self-aware actually is or should be indicative (or even anti-town).
- Other examples of mafian motives given by PMJ are the result of him looking at my posts in a mafian light, resulting in the twisting evidence or taking the mafian-indicative side when facing WIFOMy situations. (i.e. they are invalid / misinformed)

 

[bbninjas]

RE: Gekki's hammer; the thing that irks me is not that he hammered, but the fact that he hadn't been around for basically the entire the day, and then suddenly appeared and threw his vote on. @Gekki, where you on v/la?

@Professor_jplap - I'd like to see more from quite a few players, but especially you. You've dropped in and said that you aren't following, sure. But can you start making contributions? All you need to do is read what is posted, and asked people questions. You don't necessarily need to fully understand what's happening to ask questions - and you normally catch on through their answers anyways.

I think that motive is just wanting to fit in.
##VOTE: Acetratiner_Samwise for his slip yesterday and pushing a faulty case today.

What was the case / slip again?

@Celever iirc you wanted to know what information I was hoping to get from Lele's lynch? The main thing I was hoping to learn was how screwy the hosts were gonna be, but I also wanted information on bb and scattered. I'm currently leaning scum on bb and town on scattered––it's awkward bc they were both getting kinda backpedally toward the end, but those are my gut feelings regarding them now.

Why town on scattered, if you're scum on me?

Scum bbninjas would be busy writing cases on people.

This is false ftr. The extent to which I write cases is near-completely related to my spare time and my desire to use that time for mafia.

FoS on bb for sparing the time to PM NP for the certamen, but not to come up with literally any reads for me.

After having a 14 hour day at work yesterday, I could spare the 3 minutes + 10 seconds of time to skim the thread and submit a PM (which had to be done there and then), but couldn't spare a further 5 (for shoddy reads) to 30 minutes at least (for good reads) to post reads (which could come tomorrow).

Questions for @PMJ:

- Do you think that tunneling and aggressiveness (as you have been displaying) is pro-town? Do you think that is anti-town? Sheepy town tend to follow charismatic pushes (as is the case in tunneling), so isn't tunneling misleading?

- Why have you, by effect, been saying that by defending someone else, you and that player are scumbuddies? You decided that I was scumbuddies with Lele because I did not support their lynch during Day 1 (and was uncertain on the flip for Day 2). You suggested that I am scumbuddies with Celever because I questioned the validity of DoS' FoS on Celever, for defending Lele when Lele's role had been posted. Do you think that the scum will only ever defend their scumbuddies, and noone else? It would be irresponsible to dismiss this as WIFOM, otherwise the scumhunt will be linear - and mafia tactics are never linear!

- How have I been 'defending' Lele more than Celever? Or, if you think Celever is defended more, why aren't you pursuing Celever first?​