Finished Mafia LXI: Forest Fire: Game Over!

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something i suggested near EoD2:

the trust fall exercise: what is your biggest reason to townread everyone else in the game?
this can and should be done by everyone, will get to this after i sleep.

I will also answer my question from my previous post: who's likely scum if amici flips town? Personally I think jabber, which is pretty much from PoE and the read I have on scattered.
 
Day 3: Vote Count 2
Amici (3)-Ephemera, Jadethepokemontrainer, bbninjas
scattered mind (1)-Vom
Not Voting: Amici, Jabberwock, scattered mind

If the day ended right now, Amici would be eliminated. There are 24 hours remaining in the day.
However, as you know, I am aware that the site has been having difficulties, so please DM me if you want an extension.

Vote History:
#20-Celever voted bbninjas
#23-Amici voted Celever
#27-Ephemera voted Celever
#30-Vom voted Fiery_Lugia
#32-Ephemera voted Vom
#41-Ephemera voted Ephemera
#42-Ephemera voted Vom
#47-Vom voted Ephemera
#51-Jadethepokemontrainer voted MegaPod_781
#55-Celever voted Ephemera
#81-MegaPod_781 voted bbninjas
#102-bbninjas voted Ephemera
#120-Ephemera voted bbninjas
#123-Ephemera voted MegaPod_781
#139-MegaPod_781 voted Ephemera
#151-Scattered mind voted Amici
#162-Ephemera voted Celever
#244-MegaPod_781 voted Celever
#249-Jadethepokemontrainer voted Celever
#268-scattered mind voted Fiery_Lugia
#276-Ephemera voted bbninjas
#288-scattered mind voted Celever
#297-Celever voted bbninjas
#302-Fiery_Lugia voted Celever
#304-Celever voted Amici
#308-MegaPod_781 voted bbninjas
#320-scattered mind voted bbninjas
#348-bbninjas voted MegaPod_781
#353-Amici voted Ephemera
#357-Vom voted scattered mind
#358-Ephemera voted bbninjas
#390-Jadethepokemontrainer voted MegaPod_781
#392-Ephemera voted Amici
#395-Vom voted MegaPod_781
#404-Vom voted scattered mind
#405-Ephemera voted Amici
#418-Jadethepokemontrainer voted Amici
#420-bbninjas voted Amici

The following players have not posted since the last vote count and are being tagged (this isn't a warning or anything, just a reminder):
@Celever
@Vom
 
I agree that Amici is the best option for the day, but I don't really get the hammer. We can still discuss, even if she is scum. With the chance that she isn't, we could at least have more of an idea of how to go into the next day with discussion today no? Some discussion seems better than no discussion and just hammering, also Jabber is here now.

Speaking of Jabber. Hi Jabber!

Mhm agree with this. While looking into Scattered is obviously not bad, we can't just completely tunnel the one person, I think Amici is still the best way to go today.
The wild thing about this post is that you talk about the benefits of discussion and not tunneling, and don't actually make any substantive opinions other than "Amici is the best way to go today." That's why I asked about your confidence level in the Amici elim — I can understand if, like bb, you feel like your reads are solidified enough that any more discussion can wait until a hypothetical Day 4 forces you to reevaluate them. But you say that you're only "as confident as you can be with a read " and think "looking into scattered is obviously not bad." Your reads pretty clearly aren't solidified, but you're also not doing anything to solidify them.

Just a reminder that I was the first to read Amici as scum or at least the first to vote her. You can find our talk to each other on page 7 I believe.
Granted, and tbh I actually had completely forgotten about this.

But I did keep reading the thread for the next few pages, and your initial read of Amici hasn't exactly been a consistent view. You called her out for trying to distance herself from Eph and not responding well enough to questions about a connection between her and Eph, but like, from a town standpoint there's not really any valid way to answer those questions in the first place. Then you disappeared for a few pages (which is fine; IRL stuff happens), and when you came back in post #267, it's like you had forgotten all about Amici being your former "major scumread." A few posts later, you switched your vote to FieryLugia, and literally have not voted Amici since.

Obviously my vote goes to Amici.
No, that's not obvious at all. Your vote hasn't been on her since the middle of D1. All the times you've talked about her today, with the exception of quoting that post from D1, it's just been "objectively, she's one of the best candidates for elimination," and you put her alongside yourself in that list.

@Jabberwock my level of confidence on Amici scum? lemme try and brain my way to an actual figure.

So, I'm fairly sure Vom/Jade are locktown. Neither of them needed to jump onto the mega wagon when there was a perfectly good bb wagon, and bussing could have been saved for D3.

bb is very town, although a tinfoil world exists where pressure mounts on scum!bb and the mega/bb scumteam formulate a plan to bus each other, spewing the non-eliminated one town. I think that's unlikely though – if bb were scum, he probably doesn't reverse his read on me and pushes for an elimination on me D2, which honestly had a pretty good chance of success. Again, in this case bussing could be saved for D3.

that leaves scattered/jabber/amici.

I still think scattered is town. There have been a few questionable things in his ISO iirc – need to go back and check, but tbh i'm not the greatest at making myself do that thoroughly – such as him saying the PoE is him/amici, when jabber hasn't gotten out of there yet, the vote on cel for not devoting time, etc etc, but I honestly think those actions come from town.

the vote on cel: choosing a main wagon over a throwaway one D1. It's easy to just leave town to the v/v wagons and not get suspicion on you for eliminating a townie. Can be faked by scum I guess but >rand town.

the statement that PoE is pretty much amici/him: why would scum narrow down the PoE when they're alone? in scum!scattered's world, jabber is a prime target for a miselim today or tomorrow, and I doubt scattered excludes jabber from a PoE list, even unconsciously, as scum, since he'd need all the progression and suspicion he could get on jabber.

i can work a little more on scattered later but for the most part that's what stood out to me from scattered.

next: your slot, jabber. I thought Lily was newbie town, although given her... 4? posts there's not much to go off of. You haven't made yourself a clear townie yet – understandable, subbing in gives you a difficult job of catching up, showing yourself as town with 2 days behind everyone else, and forming reads (if you're town lol) – so I can't really evaluate your slot much.

So, for amici: i personally expected a bit more? Her ISO was lacking, felt like activelurking. She was in the thread but I don't really recall much of what she said – as opposed to cel, for example, who was not in thread but contributed only a little less than amici D1 – and essentially felt like someone standing back and watching town chaos.

I can't be 100% sure of this vote, but amici/jabber/scattered PoE is pretty sound, and among them amici is the most sus.

Thus my confidence on the amici vote: moderate to high, maybe about 60-70%
still gotta plan for the possibility that she doesn't flip scum.
Cool, thanks for responding to my question, and glad you finally did a fuller look into scattered too. This will be relevant if Amici flips town.

something i suggested near EoD2:

the trust fall exercise: what is your biggest reason to townread everyone else in the game?
this can and should be done by everyone, will get to this after i sleep.

I will also answer my question from my previous post: who's likely scum if amici flips town? Personally I think jabber, which is pretty much from PoE and the read I have on scattered.
Neither of these is inherently a good question to answer right now; it comes too close to directing the doc, which only lets scum figure out how to dodge the doc. Is there's something specific you're trying to get out of these questions before EoD? If not, then it's not useful to deal with unless there's a tomorrow.
 
Three more things I want to know before EoD, just in case there is a tomorrow, and then we can talk about hammering:

@Ephemera what's your level of confidence that Amici is scum?

@Jadethepokemontrainer what's your level of confidence that Amici is scum?

@scattered mind who's your top scumread and why?
I think I've got everything I wanted to know from this btw. I'm not going to hammer on the off chance anybody still has more to say, but I'm still sold on Amici being the most likely scum and would be fine with her elimination happening whenever. Everything else is only relevant if I'm wrong and can be dealt with accordingly.
 
Neither of these is inherently a good question to answer right now; it comes too close to directing the doc, which only lets scum figure out how to dodge the doc. Is there's something specific you're trying to get out of these questions before EoD? If not, then it's not useful to deal with unless there's a tomorrow.

I mean, I'd say the thing about who you think is sus besides amici is pretty darn relevant :p
I sorta get the thing about reasons to townread anyone being a way for scum to doc dodge, but honestly in this game the doc has such low odds that I don't think it matters. Not only does the firefighter have to pinpoint the target, but they also have to judge whether people have already been doused, and not target there. Firefighter, like I've said before, is much better as a confo-town role – if firefighter is not Vom/bb/jade, I honestly think they should claim today, and if no claims happen today, firefighter should def claim tomorrow.
 
It tells scum who not to kill during the night.

I mean, yes and no? Scum already pretty much know who to target; if they didn't they must not have kept a close eye on the threadstate, or even been looking – anyone who's checked the thread even once should know the pool of players scum will almost definitely target, and who they won't.

Withholding (i didn't know it was spelled with two "h"s, this is new to me lol) this information doesn't really help.

To reiterate: saying who's sus besides amici is vital info for town. Does it tell scum who not to target? Sure. But at this point scum already have a pretty good idea of which players to target, so it doesn't really give them much else to work with. Thus I think saying who is sus is pretty darn useful.
 
The wild thing about this post is that you talk about the benefits of discussion and not tunneling, and don't actually make any substantive opinions other than "Amici is the best way to go today." That's why I asked about your confidence level in the Amici elim — I can understand if, like bb, you feel like your reads are solidified enough that any more discussion can wait until a hypothetical Day 4 forces you to reevaluate them. But you say that you're only "as confident as you can be with a read " and think "looking into scattered is obviously not bad." Your reads pretty clearly aren't solidified, but you're also not doing anything to solidify them.
I'm not entirely sure what else you want me to say tbh. I've stated my reads and what I feel about Amici plenty lol. I also very well can't say "I am completely confident in my Amici read" because can that ever be true? I can't be completely confident unless I actually know their role, and there is no way I can. My read on Amici is very solidified. That being said, I do get what you're saying in that we just wait until the hypothetical day 4 to reevaluate, same as bb said, and I guess that does give us more information to go off of shall we end up there. I just read that as not really planning for the possible future, but eh alright this is fair.
 
Day 3 End
Final Vote Count:
Amici (3)-Ephemera, Jadethepokemontrainer, bbninjas
scattered mind (1)-Vom
Not Voting: Amici, Jabberwock, scattered mind

Vote History:
#20-Celever voted bbninjas
#23-Amici voted Celever
#27-Ephemera voted Celever
#30-Vom voted Fiery_Lugia
#32-Ephemera voted Vom
#41-Ephemera voted Ephemera
#42-Ephemera voted Vom
#47-Vom voted Ephemera
#51-Jadethepokemontrainer voted MegaPod_781
#55-Celever voted Ephemera
#81-MegaPod_781 voted bbninjas
#102-bbninjas voted Ephemera
#120-Ephemera voted bbninjas
#123-Ephemera voted MegaPod_781
#139-MegaPod_781 voted Ephemera
#151-Scattered mind voted Amici
#162-Ephemera voted Celever
#244-MegaPod_781 voted Celever
#249-Jadethepokemontrainer voted Celever
#268-scattered mind voted Fiery_Lugia
#276-Ephemera voted bbninjas
#288-scattered mind voted Celever
#297-Celever voted bbninjas
#302-Fiery_Lugia voted Celever
#304-Celever voted Amici
#308-MegaPod_781 voted bbninjas
#320-scattered mind voted bbninjas
#348-bbninjas voted MegaPod_781
#353-Amici voted Ephemera
#357-Vom voted scattered mind
#358-Ephemera voted bbninjas
#390-Jadethepokemontrainer voted MegaPod_781
#392-Ephemera voted Amici
#395-Vom voted MegaPod_781
#404-Vom voted scattered mind
#405-Ephemera voted Amici
#418-Jadethepokemontrainer voted Amici
#420-bbninjas voted Amici

Amici was eliminated. They were:
Town Tree

The day has ended, so you may not post. The Night 3 post and flavor will be up shortly.
 
Night 3 Start
As the day began, the animals had renewed spirits, with a rare smile on many of their faces. Yet there was one major exception. The normally active rabbit had lost the hop in her step instead of gaining any energy.
This vast gap was noticed almost immediately and called out by the other forest animals.
"Are you sad because we caught your other spy, human?"
"What do you mean? I'm perfectly happy," the rabbit replied.
"Oh yeah? Because you aren't hopping around nearly as much as usual."
"That? As I scampered away from the explosion yesterday, a piece of metal got stuck in my foot, so I can't move as much as normal. I'd told you all this yesterday."
A look of puzzlement went across the faces of the other animals, as none of them recalled ever hearing this. Wouldn't they have known about this? And weren't rabbit feet supposed to be lucky?

The rabbit insisted that it was a simple injury and they could even examine it if they wanted, but it couldn't stop the other animals from kicking her off the council. Though she would be allowed to stay around for future days, another number of the animals had been lost.
Night 3 has started and will last 23.5 hours, until July 28th at 5 PM EST. During this time, the Town Firefighter and remaining Mafia Arsonist may submit their actions.
Do not post in the thread during the night phase.

The following players missed the average of two posts per day standard and should increase their activity level in Day 4 or risk being subbed out (I'm aware that the site was pretty much unusable for a day, so I'm only counting the days that you were actually able to play here):
@scattered mind
@Vom

P.S. The Night 2 flavor has also finally been added if you want to check that out.
 
Day 4 Start
The previous day's setback weighed on the minds of the animals in the council and many had restless nights. Stirring was common and nobody bat an eye when they saw another animal walking around the clearing.
In the morning, the council members woke up tired but prepared for another day of debates, ready to find and eliminate a human spy.

Day 4 has started! It will last for 96 hours, until August 1st at 5 PM EST.
The majority to eliminate for today is 4. If/when someone has 4 votes, the day will end instantly and that player will be eliminated.
As an eliminated tree, @Celever and @Amici may not vote, but they may continue to post in-thread.
You all may now post in the thread.
 
I’m pretty sure it’s MYLO today:
5 town and 1 scum currently alive.
3 town are presumably primed.

If we eliminate 1 town and 3 town are burnt up, then that’s 1 scum and 1 town remaining, and that’s game.

Firefighter should claim immediately

Everyone else should do a readlist on everybody with reasons. @Jabberwock should do their’s first as the newcomer, and other people in the limelight should as well. (Take initiative if you’re in the limelight!)
 
@Jabberwock should do their’s first as the newcomer
Off the top of my head —

bb - hard town. Scum doesn't go into an elimination they know will flip town declaring 80% certainty otherwise. bb hasn't hedged his bets this game, and especially gets massive towncred for the Mega elim. If that was a bus then bb's played the best scumgame I've ever seen, but there's no way that was a bus.

Vom - hard town. Commitment to the Mega elim, plus bringing up scattered yesterday rather than going all in on Amici.

Jade - likely town. Based entirely off the Mega elim. Jade hasn't done much scumhunting and many of their posts lack substance entirely, but in light of the Mega elim this probably isn't indicative of alignment.

Eph - neutral read. Honestly I have no idea what to make of Eph; they've been playing (self-proclaimed) chaotically all game and while they've had plenty of reads, that's been based on very little scumhunting or indeed anything other than gut feelings. Normally I'd say it's extremely scummy because besides being flip-floppy and non-committal, it tends to interfere with actual scumhunting, but my own gut feeling (lol) is that they're just new and trying out different playstyles.

##VOTE: scattered mind - likely scum. His reads have been all over the place this game and have rarely lasted more than an IRL day or two. Yesterday his first post was entirely defensive, but later he switched to "my vote is obviously on Amici" when he hadn't actually said anything about Amici since the middle of D1. Other players have also been all over the place this game, but for scattered this seems directly contradictory to what I remember of his meta.

I'm probably forgetting something, but I gotta head off for now. I plan to reread the thread at some point later tonight or tomorrow. Couple of specific questions before I do:

@Ephemera what's your experience playing this game? How many games / PB vs other sites / etc?

@scattered mind I'd like as full a chronology as possible of your reads this game. You talked a lot about "collecting information" around the beginning and middle of D1, and now's the time to share it. Who were you scumreading at the time, and how have your reads developed since then?
 
I've played 8 games by now, including this one.

Typically my town play is more like that of my champs game (Game 2) – I'm not usually the top poster, and I usually make analysis walls.

...then I realized that no one reads my analysis walls, not even me. So I decided to try something different – since we're typically known for not so high activity games here, I tried to post a metric ton of chaotic posts to drive activity.

I'm a little offended that you said my reads aren't based on scumhunting??? I believe I've put a ton of my reasons and rationale into the thread, especially yesterday.

Anyhow today is almost definitely between scattered and Jabber. I've been reading scattered town, so while I go and reread the thread, ##VOTE: Jabberwock
 
oh – I'm not firefighter (I'm assuming bb/jabber aren't either, since they haven't claimed?)

As soon as firefighter opens the thread, please claim.
 
adkfdjasdflkjasf come on, guys, this is possibly our last shot at this! The game can't last much longer (either we catch scum, or 3 people get ignited, unless we got lucky and firefighter aimed right) – and we have a good chance to catch scum here.

I'm going to reread the thread quickly (maybe tomorrow, got some stuff to finish first) and try to put my pre-conceived reads aside and start from the flips and only those.

We need to talk today: while eliminating the amici slot was pretty much necessary, we can't sit around and let this day pass by.

Lemme put a list of the alive players:

bb
vom
jade
jabber
scattered
ephe (me)

I'm going to go back and check interactions, particularly with mega.

A few things:
  1. Firefighter claim immediately please!
  2. A question to everyone: is it possible that the mega wagon D2 wasn't pure? I'd like a sanity check.
  3. Ask your questions – did you find anyone suspicious, any post weird? Ask now – we can't lose this game due to inactivity, please.
 
Firefighter should claim immediately
Oop, howdy howdy, I am here <3

I will try to be as active as possible today. Today/tomorrow in IRL days I am going to be pretty busy, but any free time I have I will squeeze in here.

I'm going to try and elaborate more later, but for now:

Vom and bb are top town reads for me.

Ephe is pretty townie as well. Especially after his last post above.

Scattered has read town for me, but I'm going to double reevaluate on him. It's kind of weird for him to point out how he was the first to put suspicion on Amici if he was scum and she flipped town. Idk. I also want to just go back and look through their interactions because iirc they had some back and forth.

Jabber is hard to say. He has still just subbed in, he is fairly active. Gonna read through them again later.

@Amici and @Celever I know y'all are dead but you can still talk, so if you have anything to say that could help us, that would be kinda nice :U
 
skdjghfkrglrkg I'm having trouble quoting again.

This explanation seems... alright to me? I'm not sure it actually does that much, but something about it makes me inclined to believe him.

Actually from mega this is entirely a response post to his case which I don't love, if you're gonna post something I'd like to see some attempt at solving/asking questions/reads/whatever, just something rather than what's pretty much just a defense post? That's my opinion at least.

Mega, since you seem to be currently going for bb, thoughts on his posts since you last posted? Also, what do you think about Amici? Honestly, just like, thoughts on people in general?

Jade - Once again a careful non commital post where they state on the one hand that they are inclined to believe mega and then again attacking them for not posting anything other than a response. Few posts later after bbninjas argues about the mega case again- Jade votes Mega. @Jadethepokemontrainer - please react to this point as well as my other point about you being too careful in your posts. You never did.

@Ephemera - Why should we believe that you are town after trying to steer the vote to Amici after people decided to vote mega? How was Amici a better option than Mega from your point of view?

@Jabberwock - By process of elimination - you are the only player without anything that can be pointed at that people can refer to as townie. That is of course because you subbed in. If not me, who would you vote? About your case on me- My reads were all over the place: Show me how because that is too general and also explain what is scummy in that. About me stating that I voted Amici first and never talked about it again- that doesn't mean I dropped the case on Amici. I put her on my scumread and when Cel suggested to eliminate her - I once again responded that I am all for it- Why do you think it is scummy?
 
By PoE I am left with Jabber Eph and Jade. So plesae answer my questions as fast as possible.

@Vom - I read you as town funnily enough because of the case you made on me. It feels very likely to come from town plus your vote on Mega. I get that you think that me agreeing with mega was alarming to you that we were scumbuddies - but I think your main issue with me is the lack of transperency -The fact that I don't reveal my full rainbow list to people is not scummy - It comes from the idea that my reads are being read by scum and can be used like that. Which is ironically something I learned from Camoclone of all people. Revealing your full readlist early on can help scum more than town. Also if you need meta proofs- I did a full early readlist as scum. So not only that is not alignment indicative it is also not meta indicative on me.
 
Jade - Once again a careful non commital post where they state on the one hand that they are inclined to believe mega and then again attacking them for not posting anything other than a response. Few posts later after bbninjas argues about the mega case again- Jade votes Mega. @Jadethepokemontrainer - please react to this point as well as my other point about you being too careful in your posts. You never did.
Lol what? Yes I said I was inclined to believe him at first, and then I noticed other things with the post I hadn't previously and pointed them out by asking him questions. I write out my whole thought process when posting, that means if I see something as good at first then read into it more and notice something else, I don't delete what I originally said but rather correct myself by pointing out what I noticed. I find this better for me, imo, than deleting the post and starting over. If this is too confusing for everyone else, I can change how I do it, but it feels more natural

Also, what's the other point? Pls link. I don't think I've ever been to careful, I've put out exactly what I'm thinking lol.

Oop, howdy howdy, I am here <3
Also I just realized this might not have been clear whoops. Am firefighter.
 
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