Finished Mafia LXI: Forest Fire: Game Over!

[Scattered mind]

Meaning that Jabber doesn't town read you either, or that I also don't town read Jabber?

also not reading me as town. He voted me.

 

[Jabberwock]

Sorry for disappearing; I had a busy day yesterday, and I'm gonna have to take another few hours off in a sec. I'll be back by the end of the IRL day, reread the thread, and hopefully be able to solidify my reads more by that point.

I skimmed the last few pages (so haven't read the quotes bb pulled out for Eph and scattered in great detail) but my inclination is still that scattered is the most likely scum based on his having essentially ignored Amici from page 14 till mid-D3, despite her supposedly being one of his top scumreads. Here's the last post where I brought that up, which he still hasn't responded to:

It's not just that you didn't have a case; it's that you dropped questioning Amici completely around page 14. If she actually remained a scumread for you after that page, I have a hard time believing you wouldn't question her further to try and develop your read. Did she respond to your point adequately? Then she shouldn't be a scumread. Did she not? Then you shouldn't have dropped it.

Remaining silent on a scumread is an anti-town mindset. Moreover, keeping points on a player in the back of your mind and only bringing them up after somebody else starts a wagon on them is an inherently scummy mindset.

No idea what to make of Eph right now; none of the things they've done are unexplainable as town, but many of them are at least somewhat scummy, especially from an experienced player. I'll look into the quotes bb pulled before I go back into the rest of the thread later.

I don't think there's much chance of bb or Vom being scum, but it's fair to consider under the assumption we're in MYLO. Every post of bb's and Vom's since I subbed in I've gone into with the assumption that they're likely town based on the Mega elim, and I think that probably colors my memory of those posts to a pretty significant degree. I know I keep going back to "I'll read the thread later" and, genuinely, I'm so sorry to have gone MIA yesterday and not to have gotten on my reread yet, but I can't offer much better right now, and the one thing I super don't want to do is base reads off of inaccurate memories of how things went down.

 

[Scattered mind]

top scumreads

please show where I state amici is one of my top scumreads. I don’t remember saying that. In general I feel like you are twisting this point a bit. I will reread your posts to see if that’s true. Not pursuing a case is scummy only if you don’t have other cases in mind which I had all along so I still don’t understand why this is scummy.

 

[Scattered mind]

Also from your point of view, what was I suppose to ask Amici more after stating that point? She was gone after short time and I didn’t have anything else to do other than wait for her to come back or looking into other players. Your case seems to be that I didn’t tunnel Amici? I had reads on other players and the fact that I agreed later on with Celever that amici is scummy is just me restating that I still see her as a valid option among others. When more points were raised against her I naturally agreed and simply reminded that I a made another point early on for reference. Which is the best I could do to pursue her without her playing the game.

 

[NinjaPenguin]

Day 4: Vote Count 3​

scattered mind (1)-Jabberwock
Vom (1)-bbninjas
Not Voting: Ephemera, Jadethepokemontrainer, scattered mind, Vom

If the day ended right now, the elimination would be randomly chosen between scattered mind and Vom. There are 23.5 hours remaining in the day.

Vote History:

Spoiler

Spoiler: Day 1

#20-Celever voted bbninjas
#23-Amici voted Celever
#27-Ephemera voted Celever
#30-Vom voted Fiery_Lugia
#32-Ephemera voted Vom
#41-Ephemera voted Ephemera
#42-Ephemera voted Vom
#47-Vom voted Ephemera
#51-Jadethepokemontrainer voted MegaPod_781
#55-Celever voted Ephemera
#81-MegaPod_781 voted bbninjas
#102-bbninjas voted Ephemera
#120-Ephemera voted bbninjas
#123-Ephemera voted MegaPod_781
#139-MegaPod_781 voted Ephemera
#151-Scattered mind voted Amici
#162-Ephemera voted Celever
#244-MegaPod_781 voted Celever
#249-Jadethepokemontrainer voted Celever
#268-scattered mind voted Fiery_Lugia
#276-Ephemera voted bbninjas
#288-scattered mind voted Celever
#297-Celever voted bbninjas
#302-Fiery_Lugia voted Celever
#304-Celever voted Amici

Spoiler: Day 2

#308-MegaPod_781 voted bbninjas
#320-scattered mind voted bbninjas
#348-bbninjas voted MegaPod_781
#353-Amici voted Ephemera
#357-Vom voted scattered mind
#358-Ephemera voted bbninjas
#390-Jadethepokemontrainer voted MegaPod_781
#392-Ephemera voted Amici
#395-Vom voted MegaPod_781

Spoiler: Day 3

#404-Vom voted scattered mind
#405-Ephemera voted Amici
#418-Jadethepokemontrainer voted Amici
#420-bbninjas voted Amici

#453-Jabberwock voted scattered mind
#454-Ephemera voted Jabberwock
#513-Ephemera voted bbninjas
#517-bbninjas voted Vom
#538-Ephemera unvoted bbninjas

If I'm missing any votes, please let me know. For the ease of making a votecount, it helps to bold votes if possible, but that is not required.

The following players have not posted in the past 24 hours and are being tagged (this isn't a warning or anything, just a reminder):
@Celever
@Jadethepokemontrainer

 

[bbninjas]

Just popping in to quickly ask...

Also from your point of view, what was I suppose to ask Amici more after stating that point? She was gone after short time and I didn’t have anything else to do other than wait for her to come back or looking into other players. Your case seems to be that I didn’t tunnel Amici? I had reads on other players and the fact that I agreed later on with Celever that amici is scummy is just me restating that I still see her as a valid option among others. When more points were raised against her I naturally agreed and simply reminded that I a made another point early on for reference. Which is the best I could do to pursue her without her playing the game.

I think the issue is that you didn’t continue to question or put pressure on Amici. For example, when I found Eph scummy but decided to stop tunneling them, I still continued to ask questions and put some pressure on them.

It sounds like you’re saying you didn’t ask questions or put pressure on Amici because they just weren’t around - but if iirc, Amici was around and fairly active at this time?

 

[Jabberwock]

please show where I state amici is one of my top scumreads. I don’t remember saying that. In general I feel like you are twisting this point a bit. I will reread your posts to see if that’s true. Not pursuing a case is scummy only if you don’t have other cases in mind which I had all along so I still don’t understand why this is scummy.

v v

@scattered mind who's your top scumread and why?

Just a reminder that I was the first to read Amici as scum or at least the first to vote her. You can find our talk to each other on page 7 I believe.




Obviously my vote goes to Amici. Unless I find something on Jade as I'm about to semi ISO their posts. (because the ISO in this site is hell)
Objectively looking at the game I understand that Amici and myself are the best candidate for elimination so I need you to ask me questions because I want to prove why I'm not scum.

Aside from that I am going to lock down my reads about my other suspect Jade.

^ ^

Also from your point of view, what was I suppose to ask Amici more after stating that point? She was gone after short time and I didn’t have anything else to do other than wait for her to come back or looking into other players. Your case seems to be that I didn’t tunnel Amici? I had reads on other players and the fact that I agreed later on with Celever that amici is scummy is just me restating that I still see her as a valid option among others. When more points were raised against her I naturally agreed and simply reminded that I a made another point early on for reference. Which is the best I could do to pursue her without her playing the game.

Nah it's not that you didn't tunnel her, it's that you dropped questioning her altogether. That's not something town does when they have a scumread. You asked her questions about something you found scummy, she responded, and then one of two things should have happened: either you accept her responses as valid, in which case she should no longer have been a scumread; or you don't, in which case you should have kept on that line of questioning. It's inherently anti-town to just file it away for later reference.

 

[Jabberwock]

@bbninjas - I went back to more thoroughly read your vote analysis in #516; here's my thoughts before I go to re-read the whole thread.

I generally agree with your points on Eph. I've been wavering on them for a while because most of their scumtells are NAI if the player is less experienced, and I think it makes sense to chalk it up to trying out a new playstyle. The trouble is that it would make roughly equal sense for Eph-as-scum to play that way, and also to change their play the way they have since D1 if Mega was coaching them. That being said, "all their votes make sense from a town PoV, but not always from a scum PoV" is the sort of thing that would help to solidify that read. I'll double-check the posts you quoted when I re-read.

scattered buddying with Mega seems NAI. If he had towncred himself at the time, he could've been trying to boost Mega's by elevating his points in the eyes of the town.

Vom waiting for Mega's response also seems NAI. I'm actually not sure I understand why it's a classic scumtell; I feel like it assumes scum don't have outside communication.

===

Gonna eat dinner and then re-read \o/

 

[bbninjas]

So here's a weird observation: Jabber is being very diplomatic in his solving and is doing a very good job at not causing fights.

It's the dumbest scumtell ever - but scum desperately don't want to cause fights in this day phase because it is guaranteed to get them votes, while town technically won't care as much. Jabber was even diplomatic in how he corrected scattered who seems to have misunderstood the case on him. Town theoretically would get more frustrated when their top scumread is not addressing the crux of their case. So... is Jabber being over-diplomatic? Yay or nay?

 

[Jabberwock]

Most of RVS seems NAI. Main thing I notice is that Eph had a ton of reads early on and kept maintaining a full readslist based on them. It seems weird for a townie to be confident enough in their reads to be able to draw up a rainbow every other page — only scum know everybody's alignment for 100% sure.

scattered refused to share his reads for a long time; #100 in particular I don't understand. If you don't have reads at all, that's one thing, but you need to have a pretty good reason for keeping reads back if you're town.

After looking over Eph and Amici’s initial interaction again, I think it’s unlikely they’re both Mafia, though it’s possible one of them may be. Their initial interactions just seemed like jokeposts, so nothing too bad there, and then Ami makes that post about how we need to be careful with our eliminations and that the Firefighter should avoid claiming if at all possible; again, good points, but not completely alignment indicative. And after that Eph describes Ami as “locktown.” Naive trust or pocketing attempt by Eph? Possibly.

bb quoted this post in #516; I'lll add to his notes that I think Mega hinting at one of Eph and Amici being scum is a slight point in favor of Eph being town. With the hindsight knowledge that Mega's scum, it reads like he's trying to set up an elimination on one or both of them, and to single Eph out over Amici at the end is a weird thing to do if Eph were his scumbuddy.

don't like this post. w/w or non w/w interactions are super easy to throw out as wolves. Also feels like IIOA (haven't clarified this but it's Information Instead of Analysis, which is what scum do to try and look like they have content) – it basically just recounts the me/Amici interaction but like, simplified.

The conclusions here are also kinda hedgy: it's possible one of them may be [mafia]; naive trust or pocketing attempt... possibly. Puts up a lot of possibilities with vague ideas and doesn't try to conclude much.

##UNSUSPECT: bbninjas - although i still very much suspect bb, i feel like my vote's not needed on him right now
##BLEH: MegaPod_781

new rainbow:

Amici
Scattered/Vom
Lily
Jade – null town level here
Mega/bb
Cel

3 at the bottom are all kinda close to each other.

I think bb meant to quote this post too but screwed up the formatting or something. It's actually an excellent bit of evidence in favor of Eph being town; easily the most definitive evidence either way on them so far. There's no reason whatsoever for Eph-as-scum to call Mega out like this.

I think posting my own list of leans will be useful.

Vom
bbninjas
Scattered mind

I lean slightly town on these three players so far. They all seem to be asking good questions to get reads or clarify info.

Amici
Fiery Lugia
jade
Celever

These players I read completely null at the moment, because either there’s not enough posts from them to go on, or the ones there are aren’t totally alignment indicative.

Eph

I was feeling a bit conflicted on him. The “town lock” on Amici was rather odd, but Eph did seem to be making genuine assessments of other players since then. But yeah, that comment about discussing other people besides him seems quite defensive. Especially since other people were being discussed in addition to him. I was actually starting to think Eph’s behavior wasn’t worth pursuing with a vote yet, but wanting to shift attention off himself is a red flag.

##UNMOCK: bbninjas
##PRESSXTODOUBT: Ephemera

When will @Celever and @Fiery_Lugia come to provide some thoughts on the game? I was actually gonna pressure vote Celever for dropping off the radar in this post if I didn’t hit “refresh” and see that suspish play by Eph.

I /don't/ agree with bb that this is a point in Eph's favor — in #516 he says he reckons that Mega was voting with intent to eliminate here, and I disagree with that. Mega covers his bases well by calling for two of his neutral reads to talk more; he must have known it would have been very easy for him to pivot off of Eph if need be. I think it's NAI. [Update from later in the thread — in #244 Mega does indeed pivot to Celever.]

Yeah, I know scattered's a good player so I'm sure he has some reason to openly admit to withholding information.
...
Ok now that I typed that it seems really scummy. I can see town!scattered waiting for a reaction or something before giving out reads, but I'm having more and more trouble believing that the longer he waits.

Also, I was referring to this post - really the only post where he seems to add to the discussion.

This is an underrated point. scattered has consistently been cagey with his reads this game, and has never once actually offered a reason for being such.

I’m not really holding information, just not compiling them in my mind yet because I don’t want any micro read to affect my judgement so I focus first on the puzzle of players and then compiling the random thoughts I have into more solid thing I can compare with the puzzle. Which seems long but it’s actually really short and I’m about to start sharing my reads soon. It’s just that it has been j a day since I begun this process.

Like, this post? You're talking like you're constructing your own version of the reality of the game and then seeing how it fits into what's actually happening. That's a scummy mindset.

Major scumread on amici which is growing the more she keeps being silent.
Pretty big town read on vom
Lily is null but if she keeps behaving new with I’m new posts it will become suspicious.
Ephemera gives too much I am scum signals. But the chaotic nature is confusing. It’s a real gamble.

And when you finally do give reads? You don't give any reasons for them. It's almost like you don't care about developing them; just being able to point to them if the game's events ever shift to match the scenario you constructed.

wow
its like I have a job and i cant click refresh on this forum 24/7 and instantly reply

also

I've called one obviously bad ephe post bad. In what universe is that any form of practical distancing. It doesn't muddy any potential connection really

@scattered mind you never responded to this post. Was this a satisfactory response to post #155? (Everyone should go back and reread the first few posts after #150; I'm not quoting all of them but there's some more necessary context.)

@Everyone on the Celever wagon. Do you all seriously believe that scum!Celever, one of the most experienced and self-aware people playing this game, would act so obviously scummy and intentionally base his vote on inaccurate interpretations of the game state, and pretend to have "thoughts to share" when he actually does not? I don't see the scum tactic here and don't understand all those votes piling on what is essentially a lynch-a-lurker wagon.

Mild townie points for bb here and in the couple-of-posts' exchange that follows it. Scum has no reason to argue against eliminating a lurker, especially when everybody else seems in favor of it.

celever's case is weak- The case seems to be basically that he is not as active like he usually is.. which is true but he does that as scum and town. There was one game I remember him being inactive across d2 and he was scum. But still, it's not enough to jump on that wagon and I imagine that if eph is scum- then the scum mate jumped on that wagon as soon as they saw the opputunity.

Fewer townie points for scattered here because bb's been vocally against the Celever elim for a page or two already.

##UNVOTE
##VOTE: Celever

Either he is scum or he doesn’t care about this game. Either works.

Okay, what? You argue against lim-a-lurker in #180, and call the case on Celever weak in #267! Why would you vote him here?

Yes please

In this post, scattered is responding to Celever, who said "Amici is a cool hot take wagon. Can we vote Amici." This is the first post of scattered's after voting Celever. I just don't understand this.

Good points Mega!

##VOTE:bbninjas

The defensivness there is quite telling. Eph wasn't running any case on bbninjas specifically as he was just trying to find out whether or not a scum is among his voters, which with this small setup is very probable.

I said I'd come back to this (scattered agreeing with Mega) in my re-read because I wanted to see if there was any buddying history or otherwise context for it, and there isn't. Granted it's also too early in the Day for scattered to be trying to shift towncred onto Mega, but ultimately I think it's just NAI.

Case is good because if you can see from the perspective of someone that is scum it is easy to understand why you reacted this way. From a perspective of town - someone who repeatedly calling you schummy with no reason and gaining no traffic of votes is nothing. All I would do is to ask eph to give any reason. The message you posted to him about stopping campaigning against you is off and it hints to a scum mindset. Your later response is also more scummy - you refuse to acknoledge the real case and trying to brush it as being defensive against attacks on you. I would excpect from town bbninjas to understand the point first and then explain that he wasn't panicked in that post or something like that.

This post — and actually, the fact that he questioned bb for so long in general — is to scattered's credit. He gives legitimate reasoning and follows it up with a line of questioning; essentially the exact things I felt he was lacking when he voted Amici earlier.

He does undeniably buddy with Mega a lot in their case on bb, but I don't think that clears him any more than it condemns him; it's a classic case of WIFOM.

##UNVERB: scattered mind ##PRIMESEESALL: mEGApOD_108

@bbninjas having reread the context, I disagree on this being the "classic bus" you made it out to be. Mega did respond to Vom after she said she'd wait for his response, and she didn't even comment on the strength of the response before voting him. I don't think Vom-as-scum had any reason at all to make this a hammer.

At this point I've caught up to about the point I entered. I'm leaning more toward Eph being town; the Mega vote is a legitimate source of significant towncred. scattered has made a lot of scummy plays and I feel pretty good about my vote being on him.

 

[bbninjas]

@bbninjas - Main flaw of your eph analysis is that it keeps changing. It seems like eph is doing certain scummy things and certain townie things and your read depends on what you focus on more.

This is a good point. I think my analysis has changed again since I've tried to look broadly at the context of Eph's posts. It's probably futile, but I'm trying to not focus in on anything.

Re: Jabber (this is directed at bb)
While Jabber's posts have been pretty solving and high-effort, this (as I've said earlier) is unfortunately not a reason to townread him. Scum subbing in at this phase would be solving on their own, and naturally their posts would need to be high-effort to construct a realistic, believable world (that's wrong) in order to push the miselims a hypothetical scum!Jabber would need.

Sure, but do you have any scumtells on Jabber? Because I don't have many and it's hard to be confident in an elim when you don't have any scumtells.

What does strike me a little as town is the interactions between bb/jabber. Pretty friendly, finding each other town pretty quickly upon Jabber's sub in.
Like I've said, if there were two scum left I'd suspect you two of being buddies, but there's only one left, hence this is obviously wrong.
So what does this interaction look like then?

Given the one scum left, it's either two townies who have found each other, or scum trying to pocket or buddy up to town – and in this interaction I can't see scum!Jabber buddying up with bb. In fact, the reverse is honestly much more plausible.

Thus I believe the interaction here is either v/v, or v!Jabber and w!bb.

I don't understand why you can't see this as scum!Jabber pocketing me? I think that's extremely likely if Jabber is scum because consistently agreeing with someone being treated as town is a great way to pocket that town.

please show where I state amici is one of my top scumreads. I don’t remember saying that. In general I feel like you are twisting this point a bit. I will reread your posts to see if that’s true. Not pursuing a case is scummy only if you don’t have other cases in mind which I had all along so I still don’t understand why this is scummy.

v v

@scattered mind who's your top scumread and why?

Just a reminder that I was the first to read Amici as scum or at least the first to vote her. You can find our talk to each other on page 7 I believe.

Obviously my vote goes to Amici. Unless I find something on Jade as I'm about to semi ISO their posts. (because the ISO in this site is hell)
Objectively looking at the game I understand that Amici and myself are the best candidate for elimination so I need you to ask me questions because I want to prove why I'm not scum.

Aside from that I am going to lock down my reads about my other suspect Jade.

^ ^

Also from your point of view, what was I suppose to ask Amici more after stating that point? She was gone after short time and I didn’t have anything else to do other than wait for her to come back or looking into other players. Your case seems to be that I didn’t tunnel Amici? I had reads on other players and the fact that I agreed later on with Celever that amici is scummy is just me restating that I still see her as a valid option among others. When more points were raised against her I naturally agreed and simply reminded that I a made another point early on for reference. Which is the best I could do to pursue her without her playing the game.

Nah it's not that you didn't tunnel her, it's that you dropped questioning her altogether. That's not something town does when they have a scumread. You asked her questions about something you found scummy, she responded, and then one of two things should have happened: either you accept her responses as valid, in which case she should no longer have been a scumread; or you don't, in which case you should have kept on that line of questioning. It's inherently anti-town to just file it away for later reference.

I'm a little bit confused by this. Isn't your case on scattered that he "forgot" about Amici in Day 2? But here you're quoting scattered scumreading Amici in Day 3 (i.e "Obviously my vote goes to Amici"). While scattered did say that he was "first to read Amici as scum", this is talking about Day 1 not Day 2, and scattered doesn't seem to be calling Amici their "top" scumread here anyway.

@bbninjas - I went back to more thoroughly read your vote analysis in #516; here's my thoughts before I go to re-read the whole thread.

I generally agree with your points on Eph. I've been wavering on them for a while because most of their scumtells are NAI if the player is less experienced, and I think it makes sense to chalk it up to trying out a new playstyle. The trouble is that it would make roughly equal sense for Eph-as-scum to play that way, and also to change their play the way they have since D1 if Mega was coaching them. That being said, "all their votes make sense from a town PoV, but not always from a scum PoV" is the sort of thing that would help to solidify that read. I'll double-check the posts you quoted when I re-read.

scattered buddying with Mega seems NAI. If he had towncred himself at the time, he could've been trying to boost Mega's by elevating his points in the eyes of the town.

Vom waiting for Mega's response also seems NAI. I'm actually not sure I understand why it's a classic scumtell; I feel like it assumes scum don't have outside communication.

===

Gonna eat dinner and then re-read \o/

I think you might be giving scum too much credit - they don't usually utilise their outside communication to orchestrate elaborate bus schemes, at least not on these forums. Either way, it's a scumtell because Mega either defends well (if so, don't bus) or he defends poorly (if so, Mega is a sinking ship and so he is worth bussing). Town who think a case is good don't need to wait.

Aside, I really don't think Mega would couch Eph - Eph's literally just played a championship game, and Mega's the one who's just returned to mafia. If anything it'd be the other way around.

 

[Jabberwock]

So here's a weird observation: Jabber is being very diplomatic in his solving and is doing a very good job at not causing fights.

It's the dumbest scumtell ever - but scum desperately don't want to cause fights in this day phase because it is guaranteed to get them votes, while town technically won't care as much. Jabber was even diplomatic in how he corrected scattered who seems to have misunderstood the case on him. Town theoretically would get more frustrated when their top scumread is not addressing the crux of their case. So... is Jabber being over-diplomatic? Yay or nay?

I'm not sure I understand what this means. Am I just being diplomatic in general, or is there something specific you're talking about?

 

[bbninjas]

@Jabberwock In general I think you've been very diplomatic, but I'm specifically referring to #547 in how you deal with scattered.

Scattered (your top scumread) seemed to misunderstand you or even avoid addressing the crux of your case - which I think has happened multiple times today already - and you just happily correct him instead of frustratedly correct him.

 

[bbninjas]

Jabber's backread ISO is very very good. Eph points are great, scattered picks are even better. I find these the most persuasive:

Yeah, I know scattered's a good player so I'm sure he has some reason to openly admit to withholding information.
...
Ok now that I typed that it seems really scummy. I can see town!scattered waiting for a reaction or something before giving out reads, but I'm having more and more trouble believing that the longer he waits.

Also, I was referring to this post - really the only post where he seems to add to the discussion.

This is an underrated point. scattered has consistently been cagey with his reads this game, and has never once actually offered a reason for being such.

Major scumread on amici which is growing the more she keeps being silent.
Pretty big town read on vom
Lily is null but if she keeps behaving new with I’m new posts it will become suspicious.
Ephemera gives too much I am scum signals. But the chaotic nature is confusing. It’s a real gamble.

And when you finally do give reads? You don't give any reasons for them. It's almost like you don't care about developing them; just being able to point to them if the game's events ever shift to match the scenario you constructed.

celever's case is weak- The case seems to be basically that he is not as active like he usually is.. which is true but he does that as scum and town. There was one game I remember him being inactive across d2 and he was scum. But still, it's not enough to jump on that wagon and I imagine that if eph is scum- then the scum mate jumped on that wagon as soon as they saw the opputunity.

Fewer townie points for scattered here because bb's been vocally against the Celever elim for a page or two already.

##UNVOTE
##VOTE: Celever

Either he is scum or he doesn’t care about this game. Either works.

Okay, what? You argue against lim-a-lurker in #180, and call the case on Celever weak in #267! Why would you vote him here?

Yes please

In this post, scattered is responding to Celever, who said "Amici is a cool hot take wagon. Can we vote Amici." This is the first post of scattered's after voting Celever. I just don't understand this.

Aside - I'm going to reassess my Vom vote as I'm pretty sure there's a few progressions that Vom + others have pointed out that don't make sense if this was a bus. I do want to check whether "Vom thought the case was good" before waiting.

 

[Jabberwock]

I don't understand why you can't see this as scum!Jabber pocketing me? I think that's extremely likely if Jabber is scum because consistently agreeing with someone being treated as town is a great way to pocket that town.

Yeah I'm cognizant of the fact that I've been agreeing with you a lot, but that's just because you explain your reasoning and I generally agree with the points you make. Furthermore, after Jade you're closest to locktown, and I have no reason to suspect you of being scum, so I'm definitely not treating your posts with the same triple-checking as, say, Eph or scattered. Fwiw, I think I'm doing it with Vom and Jade, too.

I'm a little bit confused by this. Isn't your case on scattered that he "forgot" about Amici in Day 2? But here you're quoting scattered scumreading Amici in Day 3 (i.e "Obviously my vote goes to Amici"). While scattered did say that he was "first to read Amici as scum", this is talking about Day 1 not Day 2, and scattered doesn't seem to be calling Amici their "top" scumread here anyway.

My case is that he "forgot" about Amici in the interval between mid-D2 and the point where I asked him about his top scumread on D3. The relevance of the D3 quote is that he says "Obviously my vote goes to Amici" in direct response to my question "Who's your top scumread and why?", despite the fact that he hasn't talked about Amici since that point in D2.

I think you might be giving scum too much credit - they don't usually utilise their outside communication to orchestrate elaborate bus schemes, at least not on these forums. Either way, it's a scumtell because Mega either defends well (if so, don't bus) or he defends poorly (if so, Mega is a sinking ship and so he is worth bussing). Town who think a case is good don't need to wait.

Nah town still have a vested interest in waiting to hear out both sides of an argument because they don't want to miselim. Even thinking a case is good generally doesn't give you such a high level of certainty that you wouldn't care what the player had to say to defend themself. I see what you mean about how it would work for scum waiting to bus, but I don't think it's indicative.

Aside, I really don't think Mega would couch Eph - Eph's literally just played a championship game, and Mega's the one who's just returned to mafia. If anything it'd be the other way around.

That's fair; I thought Mega was more involved with PB Mafia than that.

 

[Jabberwock]

@Jabberwock In general I think you've been very diplomatic, but I'm specifically referring to #547 in how you deal with scattered.

Scattered (your top scumread) seemed to misunderstand you or even avoid addressing the crux of your case - which I think has happened multiple times today already - and you just happily correct him instead of frustratedly correct him.

I mean English isn't scattered's first language; I don't think there's any reason to get frustrated with him over what may well have been a misunderstanding. Yeah it's a bit annoying that I still don't have a direct answer to the question I asked, but I gave him the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Jabberwock]

I mean English isn't scattered's first language; I don't think there's any reason to get frustrated with him over what may well have been a misunderstanding. Yeah it's a bit annoying that I still don't have a direct answer to the question I asked, but I gave him the benefit of the doubt.

Obviously this only goes so far. @scattered mind I still want an answer to that question, and to as many of the points in my re-read as you have legitimate answers for.

 

[bbninjas]

My case is that he "forgot" about Amici in the interval between mid-D2 and the point where I asked him about his top scumread on D3. The relevance of the D3 quote is that he says "Obviously my vote goes to Amici" in direct response to my question "Who's your top scumread and why?", despite the fact that he hasn't talked about Amici since that point in D2.

In that case, wouldn't the fact that Mega flipped scum and there being prior discussion about Amici=scum in Day 3 be enough progression to explain scattered's comment? (that "obviously my vote goes to Amici")

Nah town still have a vested interest in waiting to hear out both sides of an argument because they don't want to miselim. Even thinking a case is good generally doesn't give you such a high level of certainty that you wouldn't care what the player had to say to defend themself. I see what you mean about how it would work for scum waiting to bus, but I don't think it's indicative.

Voting someone isn't going to get them eliminated, but it is going to make it harder to retract if Mega doesn't give a 5-star defense. I don't understand why Vom waited (to vote) and waited to pressure Mega further.

I mean English isn't scattered's first language; I don't think there's any reason to get frustrated with him over what may well have been a misunderstanding. Yeah it's a bit annoying that I still don't have a direct answer to the question I asked, but I gave him the benefit of the doubt.

Good answer.

 

[Jabberwock]

In that case, wouldn't the fact that Mega flipped scum and there being prior discussion about Amici=scum in Day 3 be enough progression to explain scattered's comment? (that "obviously my vote goes to Amici")

Theoretically yes, if that were how he explained it. But he didn't explain it; the only substance he gave to his hypothetical vote was the fact that he had previously called Amici out way back in D2.

Voting someone isn't going to get them eliminated, but it is going to make it harder to retract if Mega doesn't give a 5-star defense. I don't understand why Vom waited (to vote) and waited to pressure Mega further.

That's a good point actually, I forgot that Mega wasn't at L-1 at the time. You might be onto something there.

 

[Vom]

Voting someone isn't going to get them eliminated, but it is going to make it harder to retract if Mega doesn't give a 5-star defense. I don't understand why Vom waited (to vote) and waited to pressure Mega further.

scattered's already addressed some of this, but I want to add a couple things: in post #356 (i.e. the post directly before the post you quoted where I say I'd wait for Mega) I actually call him out for a couple things on his posts, and, more importantly, throw shade by literally saying he has an agenda. This, in addition to the other point made in that post, would be what I was waiting for. Besides, it's not like I only waited for Mega before voting him, I also waited for you in another instance - post #190, where Ephemera asks me what I think of you but I wait before voting.