It's a good catch and it is something that means that lord o/double o should be looked into, but I don't think it makes them inherently scummy as such. (That's what I would define a scumtell to be.)
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I don't think you've ever defined scumtell in that way.
I only ask the same question again if I don't get an answer. If the answer doesn't give me something scummy, I am not going to formulate a case just for the sake of it. I was going to comment on simsands answer eventually, but the site went crazy and I could not find a suitable time to write freely on my computer. Also, simsands' post was no so long ago before your accusation. You cannot accuse someone for not assembling reads on one's answer before they even posted in general, or when the answer had just been posted.
And that was not a minor point. Simsands was very confident that Robin is scum based on her change in meta. There was a big debate on whther she did change her meta or not, and I think that it is weird how simsands or anyone else supporting that idea didn't really fight to prove it by simply showing quotes. That puts a scummy point on him, since I think the only reason why you would not bother to support your case is when you are a scum trying to get towny points after the other leading case flips town.
And by the way, simsands didn't relate to that point, but preferred to simply provide now the quotes, as if that makes it ok.
Well, you might want to read back on my early case against Robin. I did bring up him not playing like other games once - when he directly claimed that he was playing just like past games by giving examples that contradicted his play this game. It was never my backing argument, as you're trying to make it sound like.
Let me explain myself. It might not be your main point on Robin, but it was the main thing that got people to not follow the case. Without the meta issue, I believe Robin would have been lynched, but because many thought this is just her meta, it didn't happen. And you didn't bother to convince anyone that this is not her meta.
@Reinforce Could you also give us your reads?
Vracken
Just a Ghost of the Past
What is strange about my play? You shouldn't have any reference for what my play looks like other that this game and maybe Duck Hunt. In response to the inactivity, yea, sorry about that I have been super busy as of late travelling and will be until the 11th at the latest.
I want to hear @GM DracLord 's opinions on the game as they are someone coming in for another who I have pinged as scummy due to their inactivity and generally non-useful posts namely in the early game, regrets of being rusty, calling out their lack of thinking about it, that kind of a thing.
Otherwise, the following posts are all a little strange to me coming from someone who I thought was semi experienced. No speculation, and no follow up to the calls for it either. Rings a little suspicious to me, like they just wanted to bandwagon at worst, or just not think about the game at best.
The following post however is the scummiest, they completely overlooked the quaking lynch, which after the flip looks even worse in my hindsight, seemingly not even realizing that we did kind of have a lead, which they later wound up jumping on.
I don't have anything to add to the case on Robin. I had them as neutral before this, but I support a lynch because simsands has been pushing it a couple of days, and I had them (simsands) down as scummy until Jesi flipped town, now I am not so sure anymore so I am dropping down to the person I have had as scummy the longest.
I want to hear @GM DracLord 's opinions on the game as they are someone coming in for another who I have pinged as scummy due to their inactivity and generally non-useful posts namely in the early game, regrets of being rusty, calling out their lack of thinking about it, that kind of a thing.
Otherwise, the following posts are all a little strange to me coming from someone who I thought was semi experienced. No speculation, and no follow up to the calls for it either. Rings a little suspicious to me, like they just wanted to bandwagon at worst, or just not think about the game at best.
The following post however is the scummiest, they completely overlooked the quaking lynch, which after the flip looks even worse in my hindsight, seemingly not even realizing that we did kind of have a lead, which they later wound up jumping on.
I don't have anything to add to the case on Robin. I had them as neutral before this, but I support a lynch because simsands has been pushing it a couple of days, and I had them (simsands) down as scummy until Jesi flipped town, now I am not so sure anymore so I am dropping down to the person I have had as scummy the longest.
While I'd also be happy with a SF/GM Drac lynch, since the fact that SF didn't follow up on leads is quite scummy, I'm still leaning towards a Robin lynch. Largely because SF is pretty difficult to read since they tend to be scummy as town, and because I think that the Robin lynch is more likely to flip scum. I also think that the fact that Drac's first post after subbing was a FOS is townier for him, since Drac did tend to lurk more as scum (is that consistent with recent games?).
I did skim over this before but only now read it properly! The thing that I don't quite fully understand, and it's my biggest "if" in whether it's Robin or simsands who are scum, is why did simsands continue pushing the Robin lynch even after all that evidence on Jesi surfaced and then after the likely slip happened? I'd expect most town to have voted Jesi at that point, due to how likely a scum flip was. However, simsands' confidence in the Robin lynch, combined with their pretty good case posted Day 6, is why I'm not as certain that simsands is scum and why I think Robin is.
You two think that simsands is more likely towny because of the case he made and his confidence on it, but you neglect the main point, which is why would he not try to prove his case when there is another case being more supported by others? I'll be still waiting for his answer.
Anyone else find it weird that NP was interested in that "if" dilemma and then he stopped pursuing it after bb said "major dumbtell was an overstatement"?
Before I start, I'd like to point out that even though he's said in the past that you should check the votecounts, when I was skimming through the thread I didn't recall seeing bb post one of these analyses.
Final Day 5 Vote Count
Robin Aisaga 1 (simsands, )
simsands 0 (Robin Aisaga, )
PikaMasterJesi 3 (Jabberwock, Vracken, bbninjas, scattered mind ) LYNCHED
Ninja Penguin 0
Day 4 Final Vote Count
quakingpunch73 7 (bbninjas, NinjaPenguin, Vracken, Robin Aisaga, lord of da rings, Robin Aisaga, PikaMasterJesi, quakingpunch73) LYNCHED
NinjaPenguin 1 (quakingpunch73, )
Robin Aisaga 1 (simsands,
Day 3 Final Vote Count
scattered mind 0 (bbninjas, )
rainyman123 7 (thegrovylekid, PikaMasterJesi, lord o da rings, Scorched Feathers, Jabberwock, quakingpunch73, )LYNCHED
Robin Aisaga 0 (NinjaPenguin, )
quakingpunch73 4 (bbninjas, NinjaPenguin, Vracken, rainyman123, )
Day 2 Final Vote Count
rainyman123 4 (thegrovylekid, PikaMasterJesi,Jabberwock, bbninjas, )
thegrovylekid 0 (Vracken, )
Blakers 4 (NinjaPenguin, Jabberwock) LYNCHED by Randomiser
Day 1 Final Vote Count
rainyman123 4 (NinjaPenguin, lord o da rings, TheSceptileMaster, scattered mind, bbninjas, PikaMasterJesi, thegrovylekid, Robin Aisaga)
scattered mind 0 (simsands, )
Scorched Feathers 1 (quakingpunch73, )
Vracken 0 (Robin Aisaga, )
NinjaPenguin 0 (TheSceptileMaster, PikaMasterJesi, )
Lord o da rings 0 (thegrovylekid, bbninjas, thegrovylekid)
PikaMasterJesi 0 (Jabberwock, bbninjas, rainyman 123)
Jabberwock 1 (bbninjas, simsands)
bbninjas 0 (Jabberwock, )rainyman123)
thegrovylekid 0 (rainyman123, Vracken)
Blakers 0 (thegrovylekid, )
TheSceptileMaster 8 (Professor Palutena, Vracken, rainyman123, thegrovylekid, NinjaPenguin, PikaMasterJesi, scattered mind, bbninjas) LYNCHED
Thought I'd do one of these. Green is confo town, red is confoscum, and blue is flipped but unknown. Anyone else hasn't been confirmed to the public or flipped. TGK was killed during the night along with no one else, so imo there's a high chance of him being town, but you can never be too sure.
If I think a point is scummy, it's in red. Green if I think it's townie.
Info from the D1 Count
-In one of the deadchats, Camo said that bb's biggest flaw when he was scum was that he failed to bus. I know Lord's town because I subbed in for her, and due to flips, I also know that everyone else that bb was voting for during the day was town.
-Vracken, scattered and NP are also on TSM's wagon.
-At one point, scattered, NP and bb were on Rainy's wagon.
-bb and NP only had people who were town vote for him vote for them.
-The only person voting for SF was scum
Info from the D2 Vote Count
-bb and NP were both on wagons that could've been the lynch; both wagons were on town.
-this is the second time Vracken voted for TGK and hopped off the wagon, I don't think it's that big of a tell due to TGK not flipping but it is a bit suspicious.
Info from the D3 Vote Count
- bb, NP, and Vracken were voting for Quaking and not Rainy by the end of the day.
- SF was on Rainy's wagon
Info from the D4 Vote Count
-bb hopped off Quaking's wagon to prevent a hammer.
-Vracken, NP and Robin were on Quaking's wagon.
-NP only ever had Quaking vote for him during that day.
Info from the D5 Vote Count
-Vracken, bb and scattered were voting for Jesi
-even though it seems NP was sure that Jesi was scum (even pointing out a slip that from the looks of it he thought was scummy), he didn't place a vote on her
Before I start, I'd like to point out that even though he's said in the past that you should check the votecounts, when I was skimming through the thread I didn't recall seeing bb post one of these analyses.
Final Day 5 Vote Count
Robin Aisaga 1 (simsands, )
simsands 0 (Robin Aisaga, )
PikaMasterJesi 3 (Jabberwock, Vracken, bbninjas, scattered mind ) LYNCHED
Ninja Penguin 0
Day 4 Final Vote Count
quakingpunch73 7 (
NinjaPenguin 1 (quakingpunch73, )
Robin Aisaga 1 (simsands,
Day 3 Final Vote Count
scattered mind 0 (
rainyman123 7 (thegrovylekid, PikaMasterJesi, lord o da rings, Scorched Feathers, Jabberwock, quakingpunch73, )LYNCHED
Robin Aisaga 0 (
quakingpunch73 4 (bbninjas, NinjaPenguin, Vracken, rainyman123, )
Day 2 Final Vote Count
rainyman123 4 (thegrovylekid, PikaMasterJesi,
thegrovylekid 0 (
Blakers 4 (NinjaPenguin, Jabberwock) LYNCHED by Randomiser
Day 1 Final Vote Count
rainyman123 4 (
scattered mind 0 (
Scorched Feathers 1 (quakingpunch73, )
Vracken 0 (
NinjaPenguin 0 (
Lord o da rings 0 (
PikaMasterJesi 0 (
Jabberwock 1 (
bbninjas 0 (
thegrovylekid 0 (
Blakers 0 (
TheSceptileMaster 8 (Professor Palutena, Vracken, rainyman123, thegrovylekid, NinjaPenguin, PikaMasterJesi, scattered mind, bbninjas) LYNCHED
Thought I'd do one of these. Green is confo town, red is confoscum, and blue is flipped but unknown. Anyone else hasn't been confirmed to the public or flipped. TGK was killed during the night along with no one else, so imo there's a high chance of him being town, but you can never be too sure.
If I think a point is scummy, it's in red. Green if I think it's townie.
Info from the D1 Count
-In one of the deadchats, Camo said that bb's biggest flaw when he was scum was that he failed to bus. I know Lord's town because I subbed in for her, and due to flips, I also know that everyone else that bb was voting for during the day was town.
-Vracken, scattered and NP are also on TSM's wagon.
-At one point, scattered, NP and bb were on Rainy's wagon.
-bb and NP only had people who were town vote for him vote for them.
-The only person voting for SF was scum
Info from the D2 Vote Count
-bb and NP were both on wagons that could've been the lynch; both wagons were on town.
-this is the second time Vracken voted for TGK and hopped off the wagon, I don't think it's that big of a tell due to TGK not flipping but it is a bit suspicious.
Info from the D3 Vote Count
- bb, NP, and Vracken were voting for Quaking and not Rainy by the end of the day.
- SF was on Rainy's wagon
Info from the D4 Vote Count
-bb hopped off Quaking's wagon to prevent a hammer.
-Vracken, NP and Robin were on Quaking's wagon.
-NP only ever had Quaking vote for him during that day.
Info from the D5 Vote Count
-Vracken, bb and scattered were voting for Jesi
-even though it seems NP was sure that Jesi was scum (even pointing out a slip that from the looks of it he thought was scummy), he didn't place a vote on her
QUOTE="double o squirtle, post: 2847041, member: 110948"]Anyone else find it weird that NP was interested in that "if" dilemma and then he stopped pursuing it after bb said "major dumbtell was an overstatement"?[/QUOTE]
Was I? I said other people were treating it like it was some huge thing, even though it wasn't.
@double o squirtle You used a lot of qualifiers in that last post. Which things do you consider the most important?
Looking at that analysis, there are a lot of points towards bb being scum. He's definitely worth looking into.
Was I? I said other people were treating it like it was some huge thing, even though it wasn't.
I did. Look at post 642.
@double o squirtle You used a lot of qualifiers in that last post. Which things do you consider the most important?
Looking at that analysis, there are a lot of points towards bb being scum. He's definitely worth looking into.
Imo it seemed like you were because you brought it up few times during that period. Also you never responded to this quote here:
Huh. Sorry about that. Didn't show up on the vote count.
I think that one's the most telling. Voting for someone can be a tell, but I don't think it's a for-sure tell unless it occurs a lot. That point's characteristic.
Next would be the voting patterns.
Scattered's name comes up quite a bit in the vote counts and now that I look at it, he's only ever voted for people who have flipped town. I thought you were pretty suspicious due to this point:
but it seems that was a mistake so you're not as scummy. There's also bb for some of the reasons I stated in the analysis, though him hopping off Quaking's wagon when he wanted to hammer does earn him some town cred.
So I would consider bb and scattered as the best suspects from looking at the vote counts.
Oh yeah, and the vote patterns too, but voting for Quaking and him voting for you at one point also decreases that.
Hmm, you are right there. Man, now I'm totally confused. :/ The only thing I can really think of is simsands lacked the time to try and prove his case.
@double o squirtle's analysis is flawed as a lot of points does not inherently mean scummy.
-In one of the deadchats, Camo said that bb's biggest flaw when he was scum was that he failed to bus. I know Lord's town because I subbed in for her, and due to flips, I also know that everyone else that bb was voting for during the day was town.
This is inconsistent with me being the main pusher for quaking to get lynched and you have misunderstood what Camo was saying biggest flaw is. It's more complicated than not bussing. f you take a look at the game he mentioned this in, I did vote fellow scum and even push on them a bit, but I backed off most of the time and that is what Camo says is my biggest problem.
- Vracken, scattered and NP are also on TSM's wagon.
So? It's sometimes even scummier if you aren't voting a main lynch if both are town, which is actually what quaking did.
-At one point, scattered, NP and bb were on Rainy's wagon.
What's scummy about that? >.>
-bb and NP only had people who were town vote for him vote for them.
-The only person voting for SF was scum
And this is scummy/towny because why? Scum vote for scum nearly as much as scum votes for town. It's not predictable; you have to look into the specific votes if this is to be scummy.
-bb and NP were both on wagons that could've been the lynch; both wagons were on town.
Why is this scummy? You're effectively saying that we are scummy for voting.
- SF was on Rainy's wagon
This is another time where I would say "so?", cause again, as someone voting for town is not inherently scummy. However, it's fairly obvious why this is scummy (because they're not voting the scum lynch), but it would be more helpful in future to give a reason.
- Vracken, bb and scattered were voting for Jesi
Why is this scummy? It's only possibly scummy if Robin actually is scum, and even then, you'd have to ignore the fact that the Jesi lynch had a lot of evidence to it.
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It's not a bad analysis, double o, but you need to know that for a lot of your points to be actually scummy, you really need to look at the specific votes and other occurances that happened around the lynch. There's also a few other things happening. Most of your points have been on the players who have been actively participating in the lynch. It's much easier to find points on players who participate, than to find points on those who aren't. This is why scum love to lurk, they avoid all of this suspicion. You are analysing the votes with a pair of "hindsight glasses". You assume that the players who are on town wagons are intentionally not voting scum, but you need to remember that town didn't know alignments then and are going to be voting town as much as - and probably more than - scum. The final thing is that only one scum has died, so it limits the effectiveness of the analysis.
Looking at the vote count, simsands looks much more suspicious since they've either been off-voting or not voting at all. This is especially suspicious because they were pushing for town instead of the scum wagon Day 4. SF (GM Drac) also has not been voting much at all, and when they did, it was on a town wagon instead of a scum wagon. SM curiously also did not vote during Day 3 and Day 4, which were the days when quaking was a hot lynch option. These are the players I think have the scummiest voting records. I think the voting record of NP, Vracken, lord o (double o) and myself are pro-town, which is mostly consistent with my town reads. Robin's (Reinforce) record is interesting; they voted scum Day 4, but also didn't vote Day 2 and Day 3, so it's not as clear-cut.
With that analysis, I'm again confused regarding Robin (Reinforce) or simsands. I'm thinking that both of them should probably claim, although @Reinforce first and @simsands after that if there's nothing particularly telling in that claim.
@Squirtle Squad When does Day 6 end?
That point was mainly looking at D1, but I do sorta see what you're getting at.
I know that just because you're voting for someone doesn't mean it's a scumtell, it's just that it seems to be occuring a lot with certain players. If the banwagoning happens a couple times that's cool, I do that myself, but as it continues to happen, well, that's when it really gets my attention. Imo, the more voting for town happens, the more likely that it's intentional. Though, now that you mention it, the players that are staying in the background are casting a bit of suspicion...
True, but that doesn't change some of the facts. e.g. you only voting for town on D1 or scattered only ever voting for town when he did vote.
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