Mario Kart Discussion Thread

[Bolt the Cat]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

You are just a bad player.

Not true, I was actually pretty good at Double Dash, but when they introduced all these new items in Wii and 7 which you're virtually defenseless against, I started losing races. It's not a matter of lack of skill because the game can still fudge up your race no matter how much skill you have, the items are too imbalanced.

No. This is not Forza Motorsport, so don't make it even more screwed up and complicated. There's twelve stats to balance, isn't that enough for you?

At least then there'd be some essence of skill to the games.

 

[Amphy23]

At least then there'd be some essence of skill to the games.

There is skill in these games. Item tactics (shockdodging, Blue Shell scares) and general driving (drifting, slipstream, speed). It's the luck of the items that balances stuff out.

 

[pokemeister899]

No, items don't dominate the gameplay, players using Funky Kong with the Flame runner bike do. Also, out of all the items you mentioned, only Mega Mushrooms and Bullet Bills can really screw your race up. Pow blocks can only really take away your item, because if you press up on the d-pad right before the Pow block goes off, you will only be stopped for a shorter amount of time then you would have been. Also, bloopers? Lol, for a skilled player(or even decently skilled), a blooper should be the last thing you should worry about. Heck, even a blue shell can be avoided if you have a mushroom and good timing. If you can react fast enough too, a bullet bill can be avoided. So once again, that only leaves Mega Mushrooms that you listed, and stars, which have been around since SMK, that can really screw up your race.

Individually, they're not really a threat. But they show up so often during the race and sometimes hit you consecutively, and that's the real problem here, it's the amount of destructive items and the frequency that they appear. I can weather the occasional Blue Shell or Lightning Bolt, but when it goes Red Shell, Red Shell, POW Block, Blooper, Blue Shell, Mega Mushroom, Blue Shell, Lightning Bolt, Red Shell, Blue Shell constantly throughout the entire race there's a real problem there. Also, Bullet Bills are a cop out for players with no skill. It's basically a glorified "warp past half the racers" item. At least with Gold Mushroom you have to be careful when you're using it, but the Bullet Bill pretty much just does the racing for you and the only thing you really have to worry about is if it dumps you on a curve.

Like PMJ said in a earlier post, this is a combat racing game. Of course the majority of the items will be destructive. The frequency actually isn't that bad, unless your either in a race with a hacker, get unlucky, or on racing on a 3-4 minute track will you get blue shells that often, and once again I will say it is avoidable with a mushroom. Also, red shells have been around since SMK, and those can be blocked with a another red/green shell, star, and a banana, so those aren't hard to block at all, and theres a small chance you won't be with a item for a long time in a race. Lightning bolts, once again, have been around since SMK. and they can be avoided with a star as well. Also, in some ways a golden mushroom can be better than a bullet bill, because you can at least use that to take big shortcuts instead of having a bullet bill just speed you up on the track.

Anyways, all this arguing about items doesn't even matter if we're talking about skill. If we're talking about skill, then a regular wifi race, and your vr, wouldn't determine how good you ultimately are, time trials would. Trust me, once again I played the game competitively for about a half year, which would also mean I have knowledge about the competitive community as well, and there your skill would be judged on how good your time trial times are. Of course, a person who has good times would also probably have good VR as well, but how good your times are would ultimately judge how good you are as a player.

 

[Bolt the Cat]

At least then there'd be some essence of skill to the games.

There is skill in these games. Item tactics (shockdodging, Blue Shell scares) and general driving (drifting, slipstream, speed). It's the luck of the items that balances stuff out.

Oh please, the only skill these games have are drifting, tricking (and even then, only in later games), and using items as shields. Aside from that, it's all luck.

 

[Bazinga001]

I'll group race on wii or 3DS.

 

[Bolt the Cat]

The frequency actually isn't that bad, unless your either in a race with a hacker, get unlucky, or on racing on a 3-4 minute track will you get blue shells that often, and once again I will say it is avoidable with a mushroom.

No, it is. You get hit by them, like 10 times per lap or something. That's way too much.

And you act like Mushrooms are a common occurrence, if you're in 1st place you usually only get Green Shells, Banana Peels, and Fake Item Blocks. They have some defensive uses, I'll admit, but they're still limited against stuff like Starmen, Mega Mushrooms, and Blue Shells.

Also, red shells have been around since SMK, and those can be blocked with a another red/green shell, star, and a banana, so those aren't hard to block at all, and theres a small chance you won't be with a item for a long time in a race. Lightning bolts, once again, have been around since SMK. and they can be avoided with a star as well.

And like I said, I could easily block or weather them in older games when you had less items to worry about, but in Wii and 7, it all becomes too much to handle.

Also, in some ways a golden mushroom can be better than a bullet bill, because you can at least use that to take big shortcuts instead of having a bullet bill just speed you up on the track.

True, but that's part of the reason why I like Gold Mushrooms as opposed to Bullet Bills, there's less handholding involved.

Anyways, all this arguing about items doesn't even matter if we're talking about skill. If we're talking about skill, then a regular wifi race, and your vr, wouldn't determine how good you are, time trials would. Trust me, once again I played the game competitively for about a half year, which would also mean I have knowledge about the competitive community as well, and there your skill would be judged on how good your time trial times are. Of course, a person who has good times would also probably have good VR as well, but how good your times are would ultimately judge how good you are as a player.

That's not how competitive gaming works, though, they don't just force you to abandon the skills you pick up in single player and force you to learn new ones (although they might make you learn new ones IN ADDITION to the ones you learn in single player). If they want to teach you how to dodge/counter items in the game, fine, do that. But then expand on that for the competitive scene. What they're basically doing with this is basically them dropping you into a completely different game and going "well, good luck" without giving you so much as a hint at what they want you to do. So I'm going to research some how competitive races are played and get back to you guys on that, but I will say this: the newer games certainly are lacking a sense of balance and consistency, and that's something I feel future games need to address.

 

[Teal]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

You are just a bad player.

Not true, I was actually pretty good at Double Dash, but when they introduced all these new items in Wii and 7 which you're virtually defenseless against, I started losing races. It's not a matter of lack of skill because the game can still frick up your race no matter how much skill you have, the items are too imbalanced.

How weird that I (and other people) always used to win or at least place well in MK7 (online ladder) in that case! Also I can easily drive three stars in any 150/150 mirror mode except Crown mirror where I had some difficulties and I know that many people can't do that so there must be skill involved.

Sure you will lose some games to bad luck, especially some critical Blue Shells, but saying that you are always bombarded with items means that you are only good enough for the "middle-class" which also means that you will take a lot of item hits compared to those who lead.

Also you said that the Golden Mushroom is almost OP which I really can't agree with. Mushrooms are best used for shortcuts, otherwise they don't boost your speed that much and in last or almost last place the Golden Shroom won't be OP.

 

[Bolt the Cat]

Sure you will lose some games to bad luck, especially some critical Blue Shells, but saying that you are always bombarded with items means that you are only good enough for the "middle-class" which also means that you will take a lot of item hits compared to those who lead.

For online? I haven't even done an online race yet, it's Grand Prix that's giving me these problems, I can stay in 1st based on driving skills, but then they start throwing 5 items at me at once which knocks me back several places and it's a constant back and forth until the end of the race. And by that point I could be anywhere in the back based on the items. This is a problem I never had in earlier games, whether or not I won or lost was almost entirely skill based (and while I couldn't really say I was a pro at it, I was at least decent).

Also you said that the Golden Mushroom is almost OP which I really can't agree with. Mushrooms are best used for shortcuts, otherwise they don't boost your speed that much and in last or almost last place the Golden Shroom won't be OP.

When did I say that? No, it's not, I'm well aware of the benefits of Gold Mushrooms.

 

[pokemeister899]

The frequency actually isn't that bad, unless your either in a race with a hacker, get unlucky, or on racing on a 3-4 minute track will you get blue shells that often, and once again I will say it is avoidable with a mushroom.

No, it is. You get hit by them, like 10 times per lap or something. That's way too much.

And you act like Mushrooms are a common occurrence, if you're in 1st place you usually only get Green Shells, Banana Peels, and Fake Item Blocks. They have some defensive uses, I'll admit, but they're still limited against stuff like Starmen, Mega Mushrooms, and Blue Shells.

Also, red shells have been around since SMK, and those can be blocked with a another red/green shell, star, and a banana, so those aren't hard to block at all, and theres a small chance you won't be with a item for a long time in a race. Lightning bolts, once again, have been around since SMK. and they can be avoided with a star as well.

And like I said, I could easily block or weather them in older games when you had less items to worry about, but in Wii and 7, it all becomes too much to handle.

Also, in some ways a golden mushroom can be better than a bullet bill, because you can at least use that to take big shortcuts instead of having a bullet bill just speed you up on the track.

True, but that's part of the reason why I like Gold Mushrooms as opposed to Bullet Bills, there's less handholding involved.

Anyways, all this arguing about items doesn't even matter if we're talking about skill. If we're talking about skill, then a regular wifi race, and your vr, wouldn't determine how good you are, time trials would. Trust me, once again I played the game competitively for about a half year, which would also mean I have knowledge about the competitive community as well, and there your skill would be judged on how good your time trial times are. Of course, a person who has good times would also probably have good VR as well, but how good your times are would ultimately judge how good you are as a player.

That's not how competitive gaming works, though, they don't just force you to abandon the skills you pick up in single player and force you to learn new ones (although they might make you learn new ones IN ADDITION to the ones you learn in single player). If they want to teach you how to dodge/counter items in the game, fine, do that. But then expand on that for the competitive scene. What they're basically doing with this is basically them dropping you into a completely different game and going "well, good luck" without giving you so much as a hint at what they want you to do. So I'm going to research some how competitive races are played and get back to you guys on that, but I will say this: the newer games certainly are lacking a sense of balance and consistency, and that's something I feel future games need to address.

10 times per lap? I think we're playing a different game here. I will admit, you can have unlucky races and maybe get blue'd like.. 5 times in a race at the most, but definitely not 10. Also true, you can't get mushrooms in first right away, but if you hit enough item boxes(forgot how many), there is a way to only get mushrooms. Also, you could get them in second and third and when you get in first, just hold the mushroom.

Theres only really two new items that could cause a problem, bullet bill and blue shell, and once again you can react quick enough by getting out of the way of the bullet, and then you wouldn't get hit. You could even use that to your advantage too, let me give you a scenario where it would: Person in a bullet bill who used it in a low spot is coming by in first place, since bullets usually run out when you get a high spot,(unless you do the 30 second glitch) move out of the way of the person with the bullet, then you can use a item you could get in first place, such as a green shell, to hit that person and get your first place back. So bullets aren't a huge problem if you are smart. Blue shells, I already said why those aren't huge problems either.

But it doesn't force you to abandon the skills you learned. Skills used in multiplayer, such as shortcuts, can also be helpful in time trials, and vice versa. Time trials are viewed as more competitive because the only items you get are one pack of triple mushrooms, and nothing else, so the only way to do bad in time trials is by your own doing. I'm not saying online multiplayer isn't viewed competitively, but its viewed less competitively. also:

So I'm going to research some how competitive races are played and get back to you guys on that

Well, if you had no idea how competitive races are played, then why are you even saying the newer games have no skill? There can be strategies used with the new items you might not even know about. Also once again, I've played MKW competitively for a half year. I know what I'm talking about, and I'm pretty sure Amphy23 does too, because he said some terms used in the competitive community, and Teal as well.

For online? I haven't even done an online race yet, it's Grand Prix that's giving me these problems, I can stay in 1st based on driving skills, but then they start throwing 5 items at me at once which knocks me back several places and it's a constant back and forth until the end of the race. And by that point I could be anywhere in the back based on the items. This is a problem I never had in earlier games, whether or not I won or lost was almost entirely skill based (and while I couldn't really say I was a pro at it, I was at least decent).

Well theres your problem, your playing with CPU's, not real people. I believe CPU's are programmed to use a item as soon as they get it. I'm also pretty sure the item spread is different for CPU's. Also, singleplayer's even easier than multiplayer.

 

[Teal]

Sure you will lose some games to bad luck, especially some critical Blue Shells, but saying that you are always bombarded with items means that you are only good enough for the "middle-class" which also means that you will take a lot of item hits compared to those who lead.

For online? I haven't even done an online race yet, it's Grand Prix that's giving me these problems, I can stay in 1st based on driving skills, but then they start throwing 5 items at me at once which knocks me back several places and it's a constant back and forth until the end of the race. And by that point I could be anywhere in the back based on the items. This is a problem I never had in earlier games, whether or not I won or lost was almost entirely skill based (and while I couldn't really say I was a pro at it, I was at least decent).

Also you said that the Golden Mushroom is almost OP which I really can't agree with. Mushrooms are best used for shortcuts, otherwise they don't boost your speed that much and in last or almost last place the Golden Shroom won't be OP.

When did I say that? No, it's not, I'm well aware of the benefits of Gold Mushrooms.

Single player is even easier than multiplayer...

You said that the Golden Mushroom should only maybe be there and only for last place which would mean that you don't consider it balanced which would mean you consider it OP, right.

 

[Chariblaze]

I own MK WII, never really played it. But MK7, yeah, I had a lot of fun three-starring everything. I'm definitely a mid-tier player, but it'd be fun to race in the Community again.

 

[Bolt the Cat]

10 times per lap? I think we're playing a different game here. I will admit, you can have unlucky races and maybe get blue'd like.. 5 times in a race at the most, but definitely not 10. Also true, you can't get mushrooms in first right away, but if you hit enough item boxes(forgot how many), there is a way to only get mushrooms. Also, you could get them in second and third and when you get in first, just hold the mushroom.

So you mean to tell me you've never been hit with consecutive items in either of the two games? Because that's what's giving me trouble with these games.

Well theres your problem, your playing with CPU's, not real people. I believe CPU's are programmed to use a item as soon as they get it. I'm also pretty sure the item spread is different for CPU's.

So basically hax? That just supports my "no skill" argument for single player.

Also, singleplayer's even easier than multiplayer.

You're not being very helpful.

 

[pokemeister899]

10 times per lap? I think we're playing a different game here. I will admit, you can have unlucky races and maybe get blue'd like.. 5 times in a race at the most, but definitely not 10. Also true, you can't get mushrooms in first right away, but if you hit enough item boxes(forgot how many), there is a way to only get mushrooms. Also, you could get them in second and third and when you get in first, just hold the mushroom.

So you mean to tell me you've never been hit with consecutive items in either of the two games? Because that's what's giving me trouble with these games.

I have, but only rarely.

Well theres your problem, your playing with CPU's, not real people. I believe CPU's are programmed to use a item as soon as they get it. I'm also pretty sure the item spread is different for CPU's.

So basically hax? That just supports my "no skill" argument for single player.

Yes and no. Yes its technically hax, and no because see below(also remember, you should've said at first you were talking about single player, until you brought it up that was the case the whole time I thought you were talking about multiplayer)

Also, singleplayer's even easier than multiplayer.

You're not being very helpful.

It is still easier, because... you know how I said how the cpu's can use items as soon as they get them? Just play with that in mind. Have the locations of the item boxes memorized so you can have a idea where they are on the minimap, and what kind of item a cpu can get based on their spot. Also, you will obviously have to know some good shortcuts as well, so the threat of a blue shell can be small if you are ahead of the cpus by a lot. Its not that hard.

 

[PMJ]

Oh please, the only skill these games have are drifting, tricking (and even then, only in later games), and using items as shields. Aside from that, it's all luck.

That's like saying the only skill fighting games have are combos and the knowledge of your character's matchups, and what the buttons do. Aside from that, it's all luck.

(What I'm saying here is your argument is hokey, but that doesn't even matter because...)

For online? I haven't even done an online race yet, it's Grand Prix that's giving me these problems

This line right here invalidates your entire argument. We're not talking about playing the CPU, we mean against real humans who know how to play the game. If you are so bad at GP that you consistently lose, you need to practice more. Just because you lose doesn't mean the game is all luck (granted, there -is- an element of luck involved, but it's not nearly as overwhelming as you're making it out to be). If you're consistently in the lead, the only items you should -ever- be bothered by are lightning and blue pain, because those hit the guy in first, and even if you do get hit, you can keep your lead if you're far enough ahead, and if you're not, you use your skill as a driver to fight your way back up front.

Sometimes the guy who passed you is just as good and knows how to protect his lead, in which case you're stuck trying to keep second and try to protect that place (or hope the guy up front gets nailed by a blue pain like you did).

Stars mean nothing to whoever's in front unless it's a neck-and-neck race (like around the first item boxes on lap 1).

 

[Bolt the Cat]

also remember, you should've said at first you were talking about single player, until you brought it up that was the case the whole time I thought you were talking about multiplayer

That shouldn't even have to make a difference.

It is still easier, because... you know how I said how the cpu's can use items as soon as they get them? Just play with that in mind. Have the locations of the item boxes memorized so you can have a idea where they are on the minimap, and what kind of item a cpu can get based on their spot. Also, you will obviously have to know some good shortcuts as well, so the threat of a blue shell can be small if you are ahead of the cpus by a lot. Its not that hard.

There aren't many, and most of them are off road anyway, which means they're not really useful unless you have a good off road vehicle (what are some good ones, they might be helpful) or a Mushroom.

That's like saying the only skill fighting games have are combos and the knowledge of your character's matchups, and what the buttons do. Aside from that, it's all luck.

No, there should be a bit more to racing games than that. For instance, there's few shortcuts to take advantage of, which detracts from the driving skill, and a lot of them are off road, reducing their viability.

This line right here invalidates your entire argument. We're not talking about playing the CPU, we mean against real humans who know how to play the game. If you are so bad at GP that you consistently lose, you need to practice more. Just because you lose doesn't mean the game is all luck (granted, there -is- an element of luck involved, but it's not nearly as overwhelming as you're making it out to be). If you're consistently in the lead, the only items you should -ever- be bothered by are lightning and blue pain, because those hit the guy in first, and even if you do get hit, you can keep your lead if you're far enough ahead, and if you're not, you use your skill as a driver to fight your way back up front.

It's not just a handful of Blue Shells and Lightning like it was in Double Dash, that's exactly what I've been saying this whole time. It's been those, POW Blocks, Bloopers, and Mega Mushrooms. But again, individually they're not problematic. Being constantly bombarded by them and even being hit by several at once, however, is.

 

[PMJ]

That shouldn't even have to make a difference.

It actually makes all the difference in the world because humans are not dumb (and they also are).

 

[pokemeister899]

It is still easier, because... you know how I said how the cpu's can use items as soon as they get them? Just play with that in mind. Have the locations of the item boxes memorized so you can have a idea where they are on the minimap, and what kind of item a cpu can get based on their spot. Also, you will obviously have to know some good shortcuts as well, so the threat of a blue shell can be small if you are ahead of the cpus by a lot. Its not that hard.

There aren't many, and most of them are off road anyway, which means they're not really useful unless you have a good off road vehicle (what are some good ones, they might be helpful) or a Mushroom.

OK, heres a plan then. Purposely start in a lower position until you get a Golden mushroom. Then try to play skillfully and try to catch up until the big shortcut comes. Then, start spamming the golden mushroom, and you'll be ahead by a lot.

Also PMJ's second statement sums up this whole argument. We were talking about multiplayer and you weren't.

EDIT:

It's not just a handful of Blue Shells and Lightning like it was in Double Dash, that's exactly what I've been saying this whole time. It's been those, POW Blocks, Bloopers, and Mega Mushrooms. But again, individually they're not problematic. Being constantly bombarded by them and even being hit by several at once, however, is.

Once again, bloopers, individually or not, are not a threat at all to anyone who can play the game decently and knows the track. Pow blocks, once again, are not a threat if you press up on the d-pad right before they go off, they will just cause you to lose your item. Mega Mushrooms I believe can only be used by one player at a time, so it can only be a individual threat.

 

[Bolt the Cat]

It actually makes all the difference in the world because humans are not dumb (and they also are).

And amazingly I'm finding it hard to believe that human opponents are more of a threat in this game.

Also PMJ's second statement sums up this whole argument. We were talking about multiplayer and you weren't.

And that was a miscommunication, but my point still stands about the lack of balance.

 

[pokemeister899]

It actually makes all the difference in the world because humans are not dumb (and they also are).

And amazingly I'm finding it hard to believe that human opponents are more of a threat in this game.

OK then, try explaining how these people are easier than CPU's:

[video=youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqOGe-uvnNA[/video]

Or, how about you 1v1 me and see how "easier" I am than a CPU?

Also PMJ's second statement sums up this whole argument. We were talking about multiplayer and you weren't.

And that was a miscommunication, but my point still stands about the lack of balance.

Not really. So what if a completely unskilled person has the bullet and uses it? It won't matter anyways, because even if they got up to a high spot, they would have to have some skill to maintain it. Also basically the same situation with blue shells. If you got hit by one and were skilled, unless they were very unlucky, they could probably get back to first, or second or third.

 

[Chariblaze]

It actually makes all the difference in the world because humans are not dumb (and they also are).

And amazingly I'm finding it hard to believe that human opponents are more of a threat in this game.

At the very least, they use their items much more efficiently. A person could get first pleace nearly everytime on a 150cc track and come in fourth consistently when first venturing online.