(MORE INPUT NEEDED see post 126) - Does Pokemon Need to go Back to Basics?

[Blui]

RE: Does Pokemon Need to go Back to Basics?

Power creep. I hate it. It makes me want to cry. This is why cards lose value when they are still in rotation. I just hate this. I remember when 3 of a particular type for 60/70 was well like a boss. Now that cost would give 120+ and a status/bonus efffect. Now we also have combos that are well winning at rates of 90-95% (when fully set up). They should do a gradual power reset. Then 3/4 years later we're back here

 

[Celebi23]

RE: Does Pokemon Need to go Back to Basics?

Thanks to our great artists and beta testers, we're starting to finalize some cards! We've got some full sets worked out for you guys, but we won't be releasing them until all the cards are finished. In the mean time, here's a couple to generate some hype:

Spoiler

Treecko - HP40 - {G}
Basic Pokémon

[.] Find Friends
Search your deck for a Treecko, show it to your opponent, and put it onto your Bench. Shuffle your deck afterward.

[G] Bullet Seed
Choose 1 of your opponent’s Pokémon. This attack does 10 damage to that Pokémon.

Weakness: {R} +10
Resistance: {W} -20
Retreat Cost: {C}

Grovyle - HP70 - {G}
Stage 1 - Evolves from Treecko

[.] Pickup
Search your deck for an Item card, show it to your opponent, and put it into your hand. Shuffle your deck afterward.

[G][C] Slash - 30

Weakness: {R} +20
Resistance: {W} -20
Retreat Cost:

Mudkip - HP50 - {W}
Basic Pokémon

Poke-Power Wiser Friends
Once during your turn (before your attack), you may search your deck for a Marshtomp or Swampert, show it to your opponent, and put it into your hand. Shuffle your deck afterward. This power can’t be used if Mudkip is affected by a Special Condition.

[W][C] Tail Slap - 20

Weakness: {G} +10
Resistance: {L} +20
Retreat Cost: {C}


Marshtomp - HP80 - {W}
Stage 1 - Evolves from Mudkip

Poke-Body Engulfing Whirlpool
Marshtomp’s attacks do 10 more damage for each Marshtomp and Swampert on your Bench.

[W][C] Tail Smack - 30

[W][C][C] Hydro Pump - 40+
You may discard up to 2 W Energy cards from your hand. This attack does 40 damage plus 20 more damage for each Energy card you discard.

Weakness: {G} +20
Resistance: {L} -20
Retreat Cost: {C}{C}{C}

 

[EliGagerNorris]

RE: Does Pokemon Need to go Back to Basics?

I've been following this thread (and the rest of the forum) as a guest for some time now, and I would just like to say that Sceptile seems very overpowered especially compared to Swampert. Do you have a Blaziken card to counter that?

 

[Dork Void]

RE: Does Pokemon Need to go Back to Basics?

I've been following this thread (and the rest of the forum) as a guest for some time now, and I would just like to say that Sceptile seems very overpowered especially compared to Swampert. Do you have a Blaziken card to counter that?

What about Sceptile seems overpowered to you? It looks like a pretty balanced card to me. 1 card a turn is a handy bonus but hardly the reason to play it (evidence: Noctowl). Sure, its second attack can do up to 120 damage, and seeing as how Stage 2s so far appear to have 100-120 hp its a fair guess to say that it can OHKO almost anything in the format. However, that requires you to have 3 energy on a Stage 2 and discard 4-5 cards, most of which have to be Trainers. If anything, the overpowered part is its first attack. It doesn't seem like this format will be full of attackers capable of easily hitting 100 damage, so taking that and then sniping them back for a near guaranteed KO seems pretty good, but a 90 damage limit will usually prevent it from taking out an opposing Stage 2 unless the Stage 2 is weak to Grass, so it could be dealt with.

Swampert, however, does seem very underpowered. His energy manipulation is handy but his damage output is really bad. 4 energy on a Stage 2, made up of two different types, and 5 benched Pokemon all with at least 1 energy on them, for a measly 80 damage snipe. That's a total of at least 9 energy for 80 damage, which is especially bad when Sceptile can take the hit, then use 2 energy and hit back for the same amount of damage. Even Marshtomp can do 80 damage with just 3 energy attached and 2 water in the hand-and Marshtomp can increase his output even higher. Supply could be okay to set stuff up because Swampert can then move the second energy back onto the first Pokemon on the next turn with its Power, but still; you're attacking with a Stage 2 with 3 retreat just to power something up; it just doesn't seem like it would be very useful unless we get some Mew Prime/Ex variant in the set. However, we'll have to see more than 6 cards to judge if Swampert is as weak as I think he may be.

Still, these cards have me very excited for the rest of the set and I can't wait to try it out.

 

[Celebi23]

RE: Does Pokemon Need to go Back to Basics?

However, we'll have to see more than 6 cards to judge if Swampert is as weak as I think he may be.

Thank you. For all you guys know, there might be some card in the set that makes Swampert very useful. *Shifty eyes*

Sceptile really isn't that good. It has a great damage output, but you'd have to discard 18 trainers just to KO 5 Pokémon with 90-100HP, not to mention the ones with 110+ HP. You need trainers to set up and decks can only run so many. And discarding most/all of your hand is never good, even though the power kind of makes up for it. It runs out of steam late-game.

"Enraged Linear Attack" style attacks were used a lot in the ex days. They weren't ever really that good, although should it prove to be broken on Sceptile, we can always errata it.

 

[EliGagerNorris]

RE: Does Pokemon Need to go Back to Basics?

Now I don't know how this will be done, but the current wording for Sceptile's ability means it is stackable. As long as Sceptile isn't OHKOed it can snipe for large damage and can draw up to 4 cards a turn.

I suppose it is much too early to judge, so I'll stop talking.

 

[Celebi23]

RE: Does Pokemon Need to go Back to Basics?

Well in order to draw 4 cards per turn, you'd have to have 4 Stage 2 cards in play - no easy feat. Also, keep in mind this is no new concept. Metagross had a much better attack than Sceptile does and had a much stronger Poke-Power that was also stackable. The power itself isn't anything new either (see Swampert and Ludicolo and probably a couple other cards). Ludicolo did become fairly mainstream, but it also had a better attack than Sceptile does.

 

[Otaku]

RE: Does Pokemon Need to go Back to Basics?

On another board, someone liked some Create-A-Card designs I had posted, and mentioned this project to me. I tried to read this thread, but to be brief, it hurts to read.

I am not an especially skilled player. My skill level varies depending on how much practice I've had lately (and sadly its been far too long since my last match), but once I get some practice I catch up to "average" pretty quick. That's the upside of having been with the game this long. There are periods where I've chosen to or had to sit out, but I been with this game since it first began, and while I seldom would take first place (I tend to choke and there were simply better players present) after eight or nine years of studying the cards and decks, you tend to catch onto somethings.

I apologize for posting without thoroughly reading, but given that the things concerning me were echoed by the person I talked to as how the plan was still going, I've got to point it out. I want this venture to succeed. Unfortunately I see people completely ignoring the history of the game. Basics were accidentally overpowered in earlier sets... and what happened? TPC starts nerfing them. Once we start the original Modified (and pre-emptively ban Neo Genesis Sneasel) we get... a format where the most powerful Stage 2 Pokemon dominated, later the most powerful Stage 1. Basics just weren't good anymore, barring some notable exceptions (that were more for support roles).

Well, Basics are Pokemon too. If it is fully Evolved, it needs to be worth playing somewhere, some of the time. That's the kind of balance too seek. When you overpower Basic Pokemon, people are annoyed that Evolutions aren't worth playing. People who either only played in the earliest days of the game or started up recently aren't aware that for years, players were annoyed because their favorite fully Evolved Basic Pokemon weren't worth playing!

That's what led to the overpowered Basics of the last few years. We wanted Basic Pokemon worth playing and... TPC accidentally went too far the other way again. We got Pokemon SP, we got Level X cards (which functioned like they were half Basic, half Stage 1), and now we've simply gotten another "wish"; Legendary Pokemon that are actually as powerful as they should be... unfortunately forgetting that we wanted them worth playing, not in scale to the video games where they are usually banned from organized play.

Shortcuts for Evolutions like we used to gave them a fighting chance against the overpowered Basic Pokemon of the format. Now stop and process: if a card that isn't broken is suddenly competing with a card that is broken via a combo, then either the combo or a card from the combo must be broken as well.

tl;dr: Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

 

[BobTheFlub]

RE: Does Pokemon Need to go Back to Basics?

Spoiler

On another board, someone liked some Create-A-Card designs I had posted, and mentioned this project to me. I tried to read this thread, but to be brief, it hurts to read.

I am not an especially skilled player. My skill level varies depending on how much practice I've had lately (and sadly its been far too long since my last match), but once I get some practice I catch up to "average" pretty quick. That's the upside of having been with the game this long. There are periods where I've chosen to or had to sit out, but I been with this game since it first began, and while I seldom would take first place (I tend to choke and there were simply better players present) after eight or nine years of studying the cards and decks, you tend to catch onto somethings.

I apologize for posting without thoroughly reading, but given that the things concerning me were echoed by the person I talked to as how the plan was still going, I've got to point it out. I want this venture to succeed. Unfortunately I see people completely ignoring the history of the game. Basics were accidentally overpowered in earlier sets... and what happened? TPC starts nerfing them. Once we start the original Modified (and pre-emptively ban Neo Genesis Sneasel) we get... a format where the most powerful Stage 2 Pokemon dominated, later the most powerful Stage 1. Basics just weren't good anymore, barring some notable exceptions (that were more for support roles).

Well, Basics are Pokemon too. If it is fully Evolved, it needs to be worth playing somewhere, some of the time. That's the kind of balance too seek. When you overpower Basic Pokemon, people are annoyed that Evolutions aren't worth playing. People who either only played in the earliest days of the game or started up recently aren't aware that for years, players were annoyed because their favorite fully Evolved Basic Pokemon weren't worth playing!

That's what led to the overpowered Basics of the last few years. We wanted Basic Pokemon worth playing and... TPC accidentally went too far the other way again. We got Pokemon SP, we got Level X cards (which functioned like they were half Basic, half Stage 1), and now we've simply gotten another "wish"; Legendary Pokemon that are actually as powerful as they should be... unfortunately forgetting that we wanted them worth playing, not in scale to the video games where they are usually banned from organized play.

Shortcuts for Evolutions like we used to gave them a fighting chance against the overpowered Basic Pokemon of the format. Now stop and process: if a card that isn't broken is suddenly competing with a card that is broken via a combo, then either the combo or a card from the combo must be broken as well.

tl;dr: Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

I like this post and I would like to give you a hug.

But honestly, you really stated everything spot on.

 

[Puff-Sun]

RE: Does Pokemon Need to go Back to Basics?

I'm so excited for the release of the rest of these cards!

treecko seems very similar to solosis.
Mudkip's power should have something like, "but you cannot play this card for 2 turns after putting it in your hand" otherwise, we have T3 swampert every game accelerating itself and killing everything.

Already planning a marshtomp deck.

 

[Xintetsu1021]

RE: Does Pokemon Need to go Back to Basics?

This maybe a bit off the current subject but at the same time on par, Whats going to fix this is most likely going to be our first Stage 2-EX, something frightens me with what stage 2 pokemon we have now having just 20~30Less hp than Most EX pokemon.

how ever i do agree that i wish some things would go back, if you ask me the nerf on rare candy runs perfectly fine as back then was rarecandy not in need of being nerfed for how quickly one could set up? ,however the playing ISS turn 1 is extremely broken and needs to be changed back I must admit i enjoy the new rule for yet at the same time feel very ill about the outcome because the player going first really needs. as for abilities i like these more than poke-powers and poke-bodies it makes things seem to go a bit better with the whole Pokemon world, how ever i wish they could break it in to two kinds of abilities such as passive abilities done in green text similar to poke-bodies and active abilities done in red this really would not mess with much of any of the ways to block out abilities.

How ever going back to the basics is indeed a great idea, how much i enjoy the large numbers is just a thing, its like any good RPG dont you just get real excited when you start out only hitting for 20~30 points of damge then suddenly at a higher level your striking things for 9000+ 8D it allways get me excited so that's my view on the power creep of every thing in addition they do need to give the Stage 2 pokemon some more love.... their sort of on the right track with Garchomp 100 damge for just 2 energies is a tad powerful and if you throw some altaria in the mix then it becomes 100+20 for every Altaria you have in play.. so im hoping in what i expect to be our first Black2 White2 Card set we get some really amazing stage 2 Pokemon and some game re-balancing like no iss turn 1.

As for going back to the basics you cant go back with out some custom reprints of some old school favorite cards like pokemon breeder fields, or professor elm! reprint them as supporters and my gosh do you have some good supporters 8D! ALSO I WANNA SEE THE OLD BABY MECHANIC not this sweet sleeping face stuff or baby evolution crap! D8<

 

[Celebi23]

RE: Does Pokemon Need to go Back to Basics?

Okay, so I need some input. The art for cards has been taking longer than expected... we're done with about 15 right now and we've been working for about two weeks. This means that if we keep going at the same rate, we wouldn't be ready to release everything for another 13 weeks, or over thee months. And this is just for the first group of sets...

So my question is: how much do you guys care about having ultra-presentable cards? Would it be okay to have spoiler-style versions of the card to start out with? Then, we would release the art versions when they're ready. What I mean by spoiler-style is something like this:

Obviously that's super cramped for space, but here's what most cards would look like:

Opinions?

 

[Futa]

RE: (NEED INPUT see post 113) - Does Pokemon Need to go Back to Basics?

Card art really shouldn't take too long if all of the spoilers have already been made.

 

[theducktamer]

RE: (NEED INPUT see post 113) - Does Pokemon Need to go Back to Basics?

Do you guys need someone to make art versions for you? I have time and I've been wanting to start a new card project. If you'd like some help, feel free to PM and tell me which blanks you'd like me to use (or if you'd like new blanks).

 

[PMJ]

RE: (NEED INPUT see post 113) - Does Pokemon Need to go Back to Basics?

I can help if you need HGSS- or BW-style fakes.

 

[Celebi23]

RE: (NEED INPUT see post 113) - Does Pokemon Need to go Back to Basics?

I can help if you need HGSS- or BW-style fakes.

We're using ex blanks.

Hopefully with these extra volunteers, we'll be able to speed things up a lot! However, in order to be prepared for a worst-case scenario, I'd still like to know if the "improper art" versions would be okay for you guys.

 

[red blastoise]

RE: (NEED INPUT see post 113) - Does Pokemon Need to go Back to Basics?

firstly, the title says post #113, while the post you mean is post #112. I would love to help with beta testing. On your Q; yes I think it'd be fine for now, we'd just use them until the fakes are out!

 

[DNA]

RE: (NEED INPUT see post 113) - Does Pokemon Need to go Back to Basics?

I remember asking my league owner once about using cards that have never been printed before in games...provided I have the consent of my opponent first. (The first time I asked this question it had to do with GB Zapdos.)
He said it was okay...sorta. He only wanted me playing against more experienced players if ever I was going to do that. However, the thing behind GB Zapdos is the card actually did exist at one point. Asking to use a card that's never been used before is going to take a pretty big stretch, and I don't know if that would pass at my league (especially considering that I'm one of the Gym Leaders).

Fun matches with friends might work, kinda (I do know one friend who'd totally be willing to help me), and although I really want to help with this project, I might be shot down before I have a chance to test it out.

 

[Celebi23]

RE: (NEED INPUT see post 112) - Does Pokemon Need to go Back to Basics?

I'm sure it would vary league-to-league and based on how well you know the league leader. However, if you and your opponent both are using the fake cards, I think it would be okay with most league leaders. Heck, there's people at my league who bring all their magic cards and trade those while they're there (they play both games), people who bring their DS or computer and play Pokémon Stadium/etc. After all, it's a Pokemon league, not a Pokemon TCG official card game league. And I'm 99% sure there's nothing they can do to stop you from playing with them after/before/between rounds at tournaments. Plus there's always the option to battle on Skype if it turns out the people following the game get scattered around the country.

 

[DNA]

RE: (NEED INPUT see post 112) - Does Pokemon Need to go Back to Basics?

However, if you and your opponent both are using the fake cards, I think it would be okay with most league leaders.

That, for me, will be a near-impossible feat. There is no one else at my league who goes to Pokebeach.

I'm well aware that people can play games besides Pokemon at a league; there is one guy I know that I play YGO with on a regular basis, and DS games on Pokemon do count for match points. I'm going to see what I can do, but I definitely think I would need some kind of clearance before I go ahead.
(That won't be for a long time yet seeing as you guys have only made, what, 9 cards? But I'll keep all this in mind.)