RE: Muk Lock (Muk, Mismagius, Zoroark, Vileplume)
julliant said:
The problem comes when you're NOT playing against someone with high retreat cost. That's where your version would shine, or at least fare better. Zoroark and Mismagius both do serious damage upfront, so it can hold its on against Zekrom and Cinccino. However against Magnezone/Emboar match ups, dragging up followed by killing the active with Zoroark/Mismagius will only set up a revenge kill by your opponent, which I think is unfavourable in the long run.
I think if you can formulate a list that answers both the heavy match ups (Emboar/Magnezone) as well as the fast ones (Zekrom/Cinccino), you could have a winner.
Right now I'm testing Muk/Metagross/Vileplume, with a couple of Bouffalants. Hopefully we can find the best list and share it.
Actually, the way i was playing it with my old list was first bring out Muk to help disrupt while you set up vile. Hopefully he can pull someone w/ a retreat they can't pay, and get the ko. I originally had no way to retreat Muk, so he eventually got koed. if it was a heavy hitter that came in for the ko (zek/resh), I would come back with Zoro with a special dark for the ko, and hope they didn't have much ready waiting on the bench. Then i would retreat zoro and bring in Muk or Mismag, and start the process over.
However, i really like the Metagross and UL Mismag you had. Meta is awesome since he negates those huge retreat costs, and mismag can make sure you always have the energy you need (and can even attack decently in the beginning if you are stuck with him as a starter (Misdreavus to put a counter on a bench pokemon, and then evolve to Mismag to to 30, plus 10 to damaged bench. It's terrible late game, but can help out a bit early game.)
Low retreat cost decks are still hard to deal with, since they won't stay in place, but if they at least have 1 retreat cost, Muk can still disrupt and stall, by making them use their energy attachment for the turn if they want to retreat (unless they have energy acceleration already set up)
What i'm trying to think of is a way to get the best of both worlds. I was thinking, maybe drop zoro, get a line of meta and muk, and then have a line of mismag split between UL and CL (that way one is for set up, one is for attack). This might work, since you can use Muk to disrupt, Meta to take out bench (especially Cleffa, as they can ruin a good trainer lock if they have a mit full of cards. And also Meta can survive almost any attack, so you can pull him back, and use a seeker, which I though was a very good idea from the post below yours that i saw), and then bring in Mismag CL for some kos....it might work, but I'll just need to play around with the numbers to get consistency. What do you think? I think with a little more tweaking, this deck might hold it's own against a lot of decks (altho, speed and lostgar are still weak points...so those might come down to luck, with you getting a good start and them getting a bad one. It's hard to beat a speed when you have 2 stage 2s to get up, but I guess other decks run into that problem too.)
Alright, it's coming together. lets see if we can make it work even better
PokePhenom said:
Ok so for your "meduim" build here is what I would do
( I will remove stuff then explain why then add stuff)
-3 Special dark
-3-3 zoroark
-1-1 Muk
-1 fisherman
-1 elms
-1 Mismaguis
13 spaces free
Ok so the reason I removed zoroark and the Sp. dark is because its just to situational and with the trainer lock in effect nobody except machamp prime can ohko your metagross without plus powers (and they cant use those.. trainer lock
)
the muk isnt going to be a main attacker more of a tech you know? So I reduced his line by 1-1 so you can get mroe consistency out of your support cards.
And when I removed the mismaguis.. well youll see
Alright now to the changes!
+1 Mismaguis unleashed This guy will be super useful for your deck as he can move psychic energy therefore letting you conserve that precious energy!
+2-2-3 Metagross line Now the reason for the odd line is to conserve space because with flowershop lady and twins you wont need those 2 spaces
+1 flowershop lady. Much better then fisherman as you can get energy and pokemon!
+2 seeker... What you just did 120 damage to my metagross! well Im going to retreat for free and seeker him to send up my mismaguis (trainer lock one) to kill you!
So now we have your main attacker plus a nice tech to move around psychic energys and some recovery!
So now we have 3 spaces left..
And me personally I would devote these to more draw power like PONT or Proffesor Juniper.
So in all...
2-2-3 Metagross
3-2/1 Mismaguis
2-2-2 Vileplume
2-2 Muk
4 cleffa
27 pokemon...
That is still alot and the only thing I would consider taking out is muk.. but thats a personal preference and I know you like your muk
4 Pokemon collector
4 copycat
3 elms
2 rare candy
2 twins
2 seekers
3 extra spots... PONT! or maybe 2 ponts and one more twins...
In total 20 Items
and for energy we are gonna use your original line
8 psychic
4 DCE
This should be a fairly consistent deck try it out! and if you don't like it.. ehh oh well I had fun making changes to your deck!
Thats my two cents
'PokePhenom
These are some really good suggestions. I think the zoroark may have to come out, too, even tho that makes me sad. I think maybe to combat the loss of that attacker, maybe run a line of split mismagius (some from UL with the energy movement, some from CL with the 30x t/s/s in hand). That way, you lose zoroark, but gain another attacker that can do big damage (altho still prob not enough to ko a zek/resh)
The only thing about FSL, is that you have to put the energy and pokemon back into the deck. This means you have to search them out again. However, I think maybe if i ran some rescue energy, I can maybe get rid of the FSL all together, and just hope that I can get a rescue on my important pokemon before they get koed. Then I could just use fisherman to get back the psychic energy i lost, and get it back into my hand rather than into my deck.
Seeker idea is very good. I really like that right now, and will test that out (only thing is that I then lose free retreat for 3 turns, but it may be worth it anyways. I'll just keep testing!)
And the main reason I like Muk, it he can be hugely disruptive (especially against pokemon that their power gets shut off if they have a special condition) They get stuck active, can't use their power, and have limit options to get out if trainer lock is up. I can't think of another pokemon that can pull out a pokemon of my choice and give them a condition. (Bellsprout can pull out a pokemon, and eventually evolves into Victreebel, which is another really cool pokemon that I've made a deck around (called VictreePlume on here), but it's not the same as muks, and Bellsprout has 40 hp.
Keep the ideas coming though, you had some good ones.
