Playable Stage 2s

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pokedan24

Aspiring Trainer
Member
I think part of the problem, aside from the toad, is that stage 2s require so much deck space. Even a 3-1-3 line is a 6th of your deck. With deck space tight enough as it is, most stage 2s are just not practical. That said, I think that with the right build, stage 2s can be put into winning decks.

Machamp/big basics has always been pretty strong. Korrina for Rare Candy and Machamp makes it so much more easier to get Machamp out. If the toad comes out, Hawlucha can take care of it and the deck can still hold it's own without Machamp.

Stoutland is another one that I have had great luck with. It has a decent attack and an absolutely devestating ability (so much depends on supporters). Like with the Machamp example above, I made sure not to depend on it so I used some already strong Pokemon (Yveltal/Yveltal EX/Darkrai EX) as backup.

Crobat from Phantom Forces is another one I noticed popping into decks. It's splashable, it snipes, and most importantly, it doesn't need rare candy as Golbat is pretty good too.

Outside of that, I'm not sure.

-Dive Ball makes water Pokemon more playable. Blastoise sounds good in theory, and if you use Pokemon that can hold their own without Blastoise (Kyurem EX and Mewtwo EX for exampe), it could work. I also faced an Empoleon/Dusknoir deck and got steamrolled. And while I haven't found the best build for ancient trait Swampert, it is pretty strong once you get it out (could be good with ether for even more acceleration).

-I also see potential with some grass Pokemon since they hit that toad for weakness. Shiftry FF and both Sceptiles from PC could be good (especially with the acceleration from ability Sceptile).

-Lastly, there's stuff like Hydreigon (PHF) and Delphox (XY). Things that teetered on the edge of playability, but could resurface with the help of some more support (teammates and repeat ball).

TLDR: I think stage 2s have a lot to overcome and it's much more practical to use stage 1s and basics, but I think certain builds can succeed if the stage 2s provide enough of an advantage while not causing the deck to fall apart if you can't get them out.
 
RE: Playable Stage 2's

I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make, or what discussion you're trying to start.

Anyway, Empoleon and Greninja are both very strong cards thanks to Dive Ball and Teammates. Miltank makes all of those decks you mentioned at least playable, but yes, they are weak to Toads. The things that seemed to help me most are Teammates, and running 1-2 more middle evolutions.
 
RE: Playable Stage 2's

I think what op is trying to say is

. Why stage 2 is never seen
. What stage 2 cards are viable
. Possible ways to make stage 2 more viable

is that right?
 
RE: Playable Stage 2's

PMJ said:
I think what op is trying to say is

. Why stage 2 is never seen
. What stage 2 cards are viable
. Possible ways to make stage 2 more viable

is that right?
Click to expand...

Pretty much this. I personally have only managed to get 3 stage 2s to work in decks (for the BC on format), but I'm speculating on how others could be good.
 
RE: Playable Stage 2's

Alright. Yeah, water has some massive power as Stage 2 decks with Greninja and Empoleon. Greninja works with Seismitoad quite well, and does amazingly well with a heavy focus on Miltank. I've had success with both of those decks. Something that doesn't work quite as smoothly, but I do enjoy playing, is Greninja and Empoleon together. It isn't as consistent as Greninja/Miltank, but it has a lot more lasting power when it does get set up.

I've tried Shiftry with Miltank, and while it generally has even more stability when you're fully set up due to its great draw power, it can fall apart against decks that can OHKO Shiftrys when you're attacking with them. Needing at least two energy on it can cause it to fall behind really quick.

I really would like to see Delphox work too, but I don't really know how to make it work yet. I don't have the right cards to try it on PTCGO yet either.

Basically, most Stage 2 decks I've seen work very well when they have a good ability, and they use Miltank to attack most of the time.
 
RE: Playable Stage 2's

Butterfree (I forget what set) is also a good choice with Miltank, as you can get it into play instantly without needing Rare Candy to do so.
 
RE: Playable Stage 2's

Yeah, Butterfree is fun. Which reminds me, I'm also looking into building a Beedrill deck (The one that does more damage when it's at full health, and also poisons/confuses the opponent) with Dragalge. 1 energy attack that poisons, confuses, does like 60 damage, and makes it so your opponent can't retreat? I'll have to try it to see how good it is, but sounds fun.
 
RE: Playable Stage 2's

Beedrill is actually pretty good. That was my favorite deck until i built shiftry. I dont think Beedrill has gotten any kind of boost from the more recent sets, aside from maybe VS seeker and trump card.
 
RE: Playable Stage 2's

Crobat is very good. My quad Yveltal-Crobat Bat deck is 7-2 on PTCGO right now.
 
RE: Playable Stage 2's

Good Stage 2's right here:

Boundaries Crossed:

Blastoise
Dusknoir
Flygon

Plasma Storm:

Magnezone
Crobat (used to, anyway)
Klinklang

Plasma Freeze:

Chandelure (to a certain extent)
Dragonite
Kingdra
Empoleon
Garchomp

Plasma Blast:

Haxorus (I guess)

Legendary Treasures:

Serperior
Emboar
Samourott (not anymore. Was used with Donphan Prime)
Seismitoad
Gothitelle (outclassed by Trevenant, tho)
Hydreigon

XY:

Delphox
Greninja
Rhyperior (Sort of depends on your coin luck)
Aegislash (joke deck with Keldeo-EX)

Flashfire:

Shiftry
Dusknoir

Furious Fists:

Blaziken
Poliwrath/Politoed
Machamp

Phantom Forces:

Crobat
Chandelure (again, risk deck)

Primal Clash: (You can defenitely tell this is when Stage 2's finally got the boost they needed)

Beedrill
Sceptile
Ludicolo
Blaziken
Ancient Swampert
Eelektross
Ancient Nidoqueen
Ancient Rhyperior
Ancient Kingdra
Flygon
 
RE: Playable Stage 2's

thood said:
Crobat is very good. My quad Yveltal-Crobat Bat deck is 7-2 on PTCGO right now.
Click to expand...

Not bad, but my Greninja/Miltank deck was 9-0 at one point lol. It's now like 13-2.
 
RE: Playable Stage 2's

The only stage 2 that I have seen that actually works consistently at a competitive level right now (I'm talking about pre-Primal Clash) is Crobat. The rest of them are just too slow or have inherent flaws against meta decks. Obviously some of these guys could perform in a limited metagame but I don't think they will do that great against a diverse field. With Primal Clash Seismitoad will probably be on the decline due to how badly primals beat it so that might open up some room for some more Stage 2's to see play.
 
RE: Playable Stage 2's

Camoclone said:
The only stage 2 that I have seen that actually works consistently at a Competitive level right now (I'm talking about pre-Primal Clash) is Crobat. The rest of them are just too slow or have inherent flaws against meta decks. Obviously some of these guys could perform in a limited metagame but I don't think they will do that great against a diverse field. With Primal Clash Seismitoad will probably be on the decline due to how badly primals beat it so that might open up some room for some more Stage 2's to see play.
Click to expand...

The big thing that makes Crobat playable is Golbat. It gives the card a reason not to use Rare Candy, because doing so makes it miss out on Golbat, which is still decently strong on it's own. Kind of like a double PlusPower.

...and that brings me to the one thing that XY needs to get right more than any other: It needs better NFE cards.

One thing that Base Set actually got right really well was balance on NFE Pokemon. Many of them could put up a genuine fight! Wartortle could do 40 for 3, Charmeleon could do 50 for 3 with a discard, Kadabra did 50 for 3, Clefairy copied any opposing attacker, Gloom auto-poisoned, Rattata/Machop/Staryu did 20 for 1, Haunter (fossil) had Transparency, Omanyte had Clairvoyance, Graveler had Harden and a 40 for 3, so on. It allowed Basics to at least apply a good kind of pressure while waiting to evolve them, even if Base Set was ruined by Removals.

On the other hand, the modern NFE's are AWFUL! They do just about the same amount of damage they did back in Base Set, and I don't mean that in a 'yipee-skipee' way. Combusken does 30 for 2? Lairon does 50 times off of 2 coin flips? Trapinch does the atrocious 2 for 10?!? This stuff is not good, and only about 20% of these modern NFE's actually have attacks that are stronger than their Base Set rivals.
Now, I wouldn't say that every NFE card is bad nowadays. In addition to Ancient Trait holders, there is Eelektrik, Floette, Golbat as already mentioned, Poliwhirl, Night Marchers, and a few others. But other than that, I really can't think of anytime where I've been able to do a consistent amount of damage with an unevolved specimen.

There really isn't any reason for the TCG to avoid strong NFE Pokemon when they've shown that they've shown that they could do it in Base Set and that they can make a few now and then that are good. All I'm asking for is for my Lombre do be doing 60 instead of 30 on 2 Energy. It isn't hard, honestly.
 
RE: Playable Stage 2's

Miltank is interesting, but I haven't been able to get it to work unless I play it as a 1 of. It's too dependent on getting the stage 2 out, otherwise it just does 10 damage.

What I think stage 2s really need is what GadgetJax suggested, strong pre evolutions that can hold their own so that in case you don't get them out, you're not SOL. There are a few interesting ones (Chansey and Loudred from PHF caught my eye), but at least 95% of them are weak.
 
RE: Playable Stage 2's

GadgetJax said:
Camoclone said:
The only stage 2 that I have seen that actually works consistently at a Competitive level right now (I'm talking about pre-Primal Clash) is Crobat. The rest of them are just too slow or have inherent flaws against meta decks. Obviously some of these guys could perform in a limited metagame but I don't think they will do that great against a diverse field. With Primal Clash Seismitoad will probably be on the decline due to how badly primals beat it so that might open up some room for some more Stage 2's to see play.
Click to expand...

The big thing that makes Crobat playable is Golbat. It gives the card a reason not to use Rare Candy, because doing so makes it miss out on Golbat, which is still decently strong on it's own. Kind of like a double PlusPower.

...and that brings me to the one thing that XY needs to get right more than any other: It needs better NFE cards.

One thing that Base Set actually got right really well was balance on NFE Pokemon. Many of them could put up a genuine fight! Wartortle could do 40 for 3, Charmeleon could do 50 for 3 with a discard, Kadabra did 50 for 3, Clefairy copied any opposing attacker, Gloom auto-poisoned, Rattata/Machop/Staryu did 20 for 1, Haunter (fossil) had Transparency, Omanyte had Clairvoyance, Graveler had Harden and a 40 for 3, so on. It allowed Basics to at least apply a good kind of pressure while waiting to evolve them, even if Base Set was ruined by Removals.

On the other hand, the modern NFE's are AWFUL! They do just about the same amount of damage they did back in Base Set, and I don't mean that in a 'yipee-skipee' way. Combusken does 30 for 2? Lairon does 50 times off of 2 coin flips? Trapinch does the atrocious 2 for 10?!? This stuff is not good, and only about 20% of these modern NFE's actually have attacks that are stronger than their Base Set rivals.
Now, I wouldn't say that every NFE card is bad nowadays. In addition to Ancient Trait holders, there is Eelektrik, Floette, Golbat as already mentioned, Poliwhirl, Night Marchers, and a few others. But other than that, I really can't think of anytime where I've been able to do a consistent amount of damage with an unevolved specimen.

There really isn't any reason for the TCG to avoid strong NFE Pokemon when they've shown that they've shown that they could do it in Base Set and that they can make a few now and then that are good. All I'm asking for is for my Lombre do be doing 60 instead of 30 on 2 Energy. It isn't hard, honestly.
Click to expand...

This is right on the money. Even before Seismitoad EX came along and made almost every Stage 2 unplayable, the strategy in these decks was to just stall with something and use Rare Candy to get the stage 2 out as fast as humanly possible. You only attacked with the NFE Pokemon if you were on the ropes. (Full disclosure: I didn't start playing competitively until Flashfire so if there were decks that made use of their pre-evolutions I probably don't know about them). Crobat is different since you the only reason you play it is for the evolution damage. Once Crobat is actually on the field it becomes considerably less useful.

One thing I've noticed is that theme decks and non competitive players tend to start attacking with the basic and work up through the evolutions doing more damage as they go. E.g. 20 for 2 turn 1, evolve and 40 for 3 turn 2, evolve and 80 for 4 turn 3 etc. I'm not saying we take strategies from theme decks but I think it could be interesting if NFE Pokemon could be given a boost to make this method of playing stage 2s worthwhile in competitive games. Perhaps a basic Pokemon with a good setup ability like energy acceleration, a stage 1 with a status condition attack or a retreat blocker or something, and then a stage 2 that does big damage.

EDIT: I just remembered Dragon's Call Gabite. I guess this was the last NFE that was a useful setup for its future evolutions and encouraged evolving through the line rather than Rare Candying past it?
 
Dragon Call Gabite was nice, but the problem with it's actual attack was horrendous. I mean so bad that we would have laughed at it back in base set days. Most evolving stage 1s in the current format max out at 60 for 3 or 80 for 4. Even if you got an attack off, you'd be killed next turn by basics that can do better. I'd like to see some ES1 Pokemon that can do 90 for 3 or 120 for 4. They wouldn't have to be broken or OP, but good enough so that you wouldn't autoloss if you can't stage the stage 2 out.
 
Stage 2's aren't playable anymore unless you run Trevenant EX to counter Seismitoad EX with the exception of Golbat/Crobat (Phantom Forces) being used as utility for bench spread. Want to have Trevenant EX use Wood Blast on Seismitoad EX for a 2HKO in order to get your Rare Candy setup going again? Weakness Policy says no unless you play Startling Megaphone. Blaziken (Furious Fists) is the only semi-competitive Stage 2 in the format that doesn't get Ability locked by Garbodor yet it's forced to rely on DCE to stay ahead of the curve which easily gets countered by Crushing/Enhanced Hammer.

The Ancient Trait Ability "Evolution" is a step in the right direction for Stage 2's which is probably the closest thing we're going to get to Broken-Time Space without a functional reprint in Stadium form yet there's so much riding against Stage 2's right now that it makes them hard to compete against Pokemon-EX's. It's like as If TPCi is making money off of terrible card design choices that's led to unwarranted consequences. You'd think they'd know better after the trouble surrounding Tropical Beach last format but at this point it's like they don't even care anymore. What made the game unique was being able to slowly setup your field for a big finish but nowadays players are stuck having their decks on auto-pilot.
 
I feel like a lot of them are honestly too slow for the current meta; Rare Candy helps that process but it's blocked way too easily by Toad EX and Trevenant PhF. It's a shame, too; Ancient Swampert's lining up to be a pretty decent card overall, bar the fact it's a Stage 2.
 
This is why I look forward to XY-on so much. Without LaserBank, Seismitoad-EX is doing nothing but stalling. The Item locking is still annoying, but it doesn't matter if your opponent is doing nothing but slamming for 50, which isn't even that much. Garbodor is also going away, meaning that the only Ability-locking tech it gets is Ninetales/Silent Lab.

With Seismitoad-EX out of the picture, I could defenitely see cards like Swampert, Kingdra, Nidoqueen, Rhyperior, and Sceptile get a bit of viability. Older Stage 2's that could get an encore include Delphox, Shiftry, and Blaziken. While Trevenant can still Item lock, it at least isn't as bad because your opponent still has to get a Stage 1 into play before it starts working, AND your opponent doesn't get access to Donphan. Gengar-EX is still an option, and I think it will be a lot better than before with Safeguard gone and Pyroar nerfed, but it still doesn't compare to the raw power of Donphan.
 
GadgetJax said:
This is why I look forward to XY-on so much. Without LaserBank, Seismitoad-EX is doing nothing but stalling. The Item locking is still annoying, but it doesn't matter if your opponent is doing nothing but slamming for 50, which isn't even that much. Garbodor is also going away, meaning that the only Ability-locking tech it gets is Ninetales/Silent Lab.
Click to expand...

You forgot about Wobbuffet (Phantom Forces) which of course is easily countered by Lysandre. With LaserBank rotating out that makes Teammates a reasonable replacement for Skyla since you'll still be able to search for your 2 cards without being denied for it through knock out by poison in-between turns.
 
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