Rebirth of Ho-oh

Camoclone

Camoclone

TCG Articles Head
Member
Ho-Oh will most likely be making a return at upcoming tournaments. Some might even call it a rebirth. With the reprint of energy switch and so many Virizion variants Ho-oh just might be playable again. In the past Ho-oh has been used to accelerate energy with the use of energy switch and scramble switch. With an array of attackers that counter the current tier 1 decks Ho-oh can be a force to be reckoned with.

Do you think Ho-oh will be tier 1?

What attackers will you play in Ho-oh?
 
Well, I believe without Pluspower, Ho-oh will take a hit. Lets say you Rebirth, heads, 3 energies on Ho-oh and then you need the last 10 to KO Virizion / Genesect. I know it is just 1 more energy from the hand or an energy switch, but Pluspower is just good in a Mewtwo vs. Mewtwo battle to (laser can be used here though). But the deck can focus on Bouffalant Silver Bangle. Bouf, DCE, Laser, VCG, Rebirth, Bangle, and Energy Switch. That is 180 damage in 1 hit (if the attacked pokemon is an EX :p ) giving up just 1 prize in the return. All I am worried about is the Empoleon match up. It won 3 regionals in Europe this weekend (beating me in the final here in Denmark and winning twice in France).

But, Boufalant, Mewtwo, Ho-oh itself, Terrakion with retaliate becomes viable again. :)
 
Baby_BI said:
Well, I believe without Pluspower, Ho-oh will take a hit. Lets say you Rebirth, heads, 3 energies on Ho-oh and then you need the last 10 to KO Virizion / Genesect. I know it is just 1 more energy from the hand or an energy switch, but Pluspower is just good in a Mewtwo vs. Mewtwo battle to (laser can be used here though). But the deck can focus on Bouffalant Silver Bangle. Bouf, DCE, Laser, VCG, Rebirth, Bangle, and Energy Switch. That is 180 damage in 1 hit (if the attacked pokemon is an EX :p ) giving up just 1 prize in the return. All I am worried about is the Empoleon match up. It won 3 regionals in Europe this weekend (beating me in the final here in Denmark and winning twice in France).

But, Boufalant, Mewtwo, Ho-oh itself, Terrakion with retaliate becomes viable again. :)
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Why would Ho-oh take a hit without pluspower? Now it has laserbank which can deal 3x the amount that 1 plus power could do. Sure vs. Virgen decks you will need a bit more damage however you win against VirGen anyways. You run enough energy switches that you should be able to get the 1-shot when needed. In Mewtwo fights laserbank does the same thing that pluspower did before. I kind of see what your saying but I don't think it will be a problem.
 
littywitty said:
Um, I dont think you can use laser on VirGen...
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I know and that was my point... You can't use laser however you don't really need it. VirGen is a fairly easy matchup anyways.
 
Wait...what? You were totally stating that "Laser could do three times the amount a PlusPower" could inflict. I'm lost.

Anyways, I think Ho-oh is not really all that great. First, its damage output is fairly low - even with Energy Switch. You need four Energy to do a 100 damage, meaning after a Rebirth, you'll need to manually attach or pull some Energy Switch shenanigans. Furthermore, Keldeo/Blastoise is still a thing, and all it takes is three Water Energy and...see ya later. It's also relatively consistent, being tier one and also one of the best decks in the game right now. Empoleon is seeing play overseas and I see potential in it coming back. Needing a flip is inconsistent and Garbodor will get far more popular now that Catcher's gone.

So that does it for me. Sorry Ho-oh.
 
"Rebirth" of Ho-oh. Puns have been taken to a new level of awful. Wow.

As for the deck overall, I don't want to discount it. I like the idea of being able to respond to anything, but the problem is that it /can't/ just respond to anything like it used to. OHKO's are a lot easier in the current format then they have been in the era Ho-oh was previously played, so your energy are going to be taken out a lot quicker. Even decks that you're teched for, like Darkrai will be able to drop Lasers and other shenanigans to score quick OHKOs. In addition, even without Catcher, the Blastoise matchup is still a problem because with 4 energy they can steamroll over anything your deck throws at it.

If I was to play Ho-oh, I'd run it with Bouffalant and Terrakion with no doubt. Mewtwo's probably a good add as well for Mewtwo wars and because it functions well with DCE. I'd also probably consider Mr. Mime so Darkrai and Kyurem can't add up damage on your bench, making for less-easy OHKOs. It'd be a shame to get all the energy in play just to have them all taken right back out. You'd be repetitively relying on Rebirth flips to get the energy in play. If I were to play Ho-oh, that's the route I would take. However, I'd say this needs some extensive testing as well as something to help the Blastoise matchup before being seriously considered for any kind of format.
 
I feel like anything Ho-Oh can do, Victini can do better. Energy Switch coming back isn't going to revive Ho-Oh because we had Energy Switch a few months ago, and if I recall correctly, no one played Ho-Oh then either. Why? The deck couldn't really consistently OHKO important Pokemon in the meta and had really bad match ups with Keldeo and now Plasma and no really good match ups to speak of until Genesect. On top of that, the Ho-Oh engine was fairly inconsistent. You had to get Ho-Oh in the discard somehow with energies and even then, the Ability required a coin flip. All that, and you still needed to play Energy Switch to power up your main attackers. And let's not forget the nightmare of actually starting with Ho-Oh. With Victini, you just get the energies out of your deck and attach them where ever you like, no Energy Switch required.
 
I've been testing Ho-Oh, and so far I'm liking it. With 3 Mewtwo and Lasers, it kinda feels like Virizion / Mewtwo, but with more techs and less consistency. One tech I really like is Virizion. Just play a few Grass Energy, and you can block Lasers when totally necessary. Grass Energy also works wonders on a Sigilyph. I'm also trying out a 2-2 Ninetales right now instead of Catchers. Obviously Bright Look is good, but Hexed Flame can be a solid attack at times, especially against Klinklang. Not too sure which one I like more. It's hard to tell because Catcher is totally luck based.

Another tech I want to try out is Chandelure EX. Being able to snipe for 1 Energy can be really clutch. I've had several situations where I miss an Energy or a Laser to KO something with Mewtwo, so I do almost enough, then they retreat the Pokemon and I have to waste a Ninetales on it. Chandelure would work pretty well for that. I guess Landorus would be good for that too, but Chandelure can put them wherever it wants.

Other than that, I like all the standard techs: Sigilpyh, Tornadus EX, Terrakion, Cobalion, Bouffalant. As I said earlier, I like Lasers in this deck as well. Your damage outputs aren't exactly humungous, especially with such a sporadic Pokemon like Mewtwo.
 
Serperior said:
Wait...what? You were totally stating that "Laser could do three times the amount a PlusPower" could inflict. I'm lost.

Anyways, I think Ho-oh is not really all that great. First, its damage output is fairly low - even with Energy Switch. You need four Energy to do a 100 damage, meaning after a Rebirth, you'll need to manually attach or pull some Energy Switch shenanigans. Furthermore, Keldeo/Blastoise is still a thing, and all it takes is three Water Energy and...see ya later. It's also relatively consistent, being tier one and also one of the best decks in the game right now. Empoleon is seeing play overseas and I see potential in it coming back. Needing a flip is inconsistent and Garbodor will get far more popular now that Catcher's gone.

So that does it for me. Sorry Ho-oh.
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I was stating that it could do 3x the amount pluspower could do versus anything but Virizion. However you don't need the extra damage in the VirGen matchup that much (implying that laser doesn't work).

The deck doesn't exactly work like you think it does either :p. You don't actually attack with Ho-oh against anything but Virizion. You attack with your various attackers using energy-switch to provide acceleration. Sure Keldeo / Blastoise is still a thing however that it actually a positive matchup. With catcher gone they can no longer catcher KO you. You instead can attack with another attacker that is better suited for the Blastoise matchup (Mewtwo EX, Virizion EX, Genesect EX, Tropius, and Tornados EX). Against Garbodor this deck can function very well as a big basics deck and will play 2 tool scrapper for the occasional rebirth.
 
So freakin happy this is back! I am just starting to test this. I really like lasers so far.
 
Lil Wayne said:
So freakin happy this is back! I am just starting to test this. I really like lasers so far.
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I'm trying to figure out how much I like lasers... To be honest I'm just not sure it's worth the space in the deck.
 
camoclone said:
Lil Wayne said:
So freakin happy this is back! I am just starting to test this. I really like lasers so far.
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I'm trying to figure out how much I like lasers... To be honest I'm just not sure it's worth the space in the deck.
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It does take away from the consistency but it also gives you that extra damage you so need.
 
Lil Wayne said:
camoclone said:
I'm trying to figure out how much I like lasers... To be honest I'm just not sure it's worth the space in the deck.
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It does take away from the consistency but it also gives you that extra damage you so need.
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The one problem I have with lasers though is how often are you going to get that 1 hit KO. Don't get me wrong I think 2-3 lasers are great in the deck however I just don't think the rest of laserbank is all that good. This is a toolbox deck that runs various attackers to win certain match ups.

Terrakion 1-Shots --> Darkrai
Genesect EX 1-Shots --> Blastoise / Keldeo
Ho-oh 1-shots --> Genesect / Virizion

Do you see what I'm getting at? The only way you really would need lasers is in a mewtwo war (You don't need laserbank for this) or if you run heavy Bouffalant lines. Everything else either 1 hit KO's or 2 hit KO's.
 
camoclone said:
Genesect EX 1-Shots --> Blastoise / Keldeo
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Why not use:
http://pokebeach.com/scans/noble-victories/13-virizion.jpg for Keldeo/blastoise? Easier to setup and with a bangle plus laserBank it KO's Keldeo in the first attack, then OHKO's them without LaserBank afterwards.

Bouffalant should be the main focus of the deck IMHO. LaserBank and bangle OHKO's every EX in the game.
 
Recall you only have four Energy Switch. How else do you plan on moving Energy around? Exp. Share? Given other decks pump out Energy faster than you do, I don't think I can agree that this deck is going to be coming back any time soon. The flip for Rebirth already shows inconsistency, and you'll have to rely on early-game Juniper or Ultra Balls to get anything into the Discard Pile. If you run a bunch of techs, (like the Tropius and Mewtwo-EX, for example), chances are a few of those cards will be dead in other matchups.

I'm not sold on this idea.
 
camoclone said:
Lil Wayne said:
It does take away from the consistency but it also gives you that extra damage you so need.
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The one problem I have with lasers though is how often are you going to get that 1 hit KO. Don't get me wrong I think 2-3 lasers are great in the deck however I just don't think the rest of laserbank is all that good. This is a toolbox deck that runs various attackers to win certain match ups.

Terrakion 1-Shots --> Darkrai
Genesect EX 1-Shots --> Blastoise / Keldeo
Ho-oh 1-shots --> Genesect / Virizion

Do you see what I'm getting at? The only way you really would need lasers is in a mewtwo war (You don't need laserbank for this) or if you run heavy Bouffalant lines. Everything else either 1 hit KO's or 2 hit KO's.
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You can't rely solely on your techs when playing this deck. If you do, you'll run out of them very quickly. You have to pace your techs correctly, not just go all out with them at the start (except maybe against Vir/Gen). Mewtwo is pretty much what the deck centers around; it's good in almost every match up, and Mewtwo can never complain with extra damage.
 
Four Arms said:
camoclone said:
The one problem I have with lasers though is how often are you going to get that 1 hit KO. Don't get me wrong I think 2-3 lasers are great in the deck however I just don't think the rest of laserbank is all that good. This is a toolbox deck that runs various attackers to win certain match ups.

Terrakion 1-Shots --> Darkrai
Genesect EX 1-Shots --> Blastoise / Keldeo
Ho-oh 1-shots --> Genesect / Virizion

Do you see what I'm getting at? The only way you really would need lasers is in a mewtwo war (You don't need laserbank for this) or if you run heavy Bouffalant lines. Everything else either 1 hit KO's or 2 hit KO's.
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You can't rely solely on your techs when playing this deck. If you do, you'll run out of them very quickly. You have to pace your techs correctly, not just go all out with them at the start (except maybe against Vir/Gen). Mewtwo is pretty much what the deck centers around; it's good in almost every match up, and Mewtwo can never complain with extra damage.
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Mewtwo can never complain however is it worth the space... You'll be consistently hitting for 80-100 damage. What's the difference between 100 damage and 130 damage right now? Sure it helps against Kyurem however TDK will be seeing a lot less play. In the new format EX's will rule and once you get up to 90 damage there isn't a whole lot of difference between 100 damage and 160 damage. Is it worth the space for lasers? Is it really needed or would it be better to use another card?
 
camoclone said:
Mewtwo can never complain however is it worth the space... You'll be consistently hitting for 80-100 damage. What's the difference between 100 damage and 130 damage right now? Sure it helps against Kyurem however TDK will be seeing a lot less play. In the new format EX's will rule and once you get up to 90 damage there isn't a whole lot of difference between 100 damage and 160 damage. Is it worth the space for lasers? Is it really needed or would it be better to use another card?
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Laser are a must in this deck.
They complete the bouffalant math.
 
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