Reshiphlosion or ZPST?
- Thread starter Serperior
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I still feel that Reshiphlosion is at least 3 times better than Zekrom, but whatever. Something that needs to be mentioned here is that different people are better at playing different decks. To make the best decision, I think you are going to have to test both the decks yourself. Keep in mind, that barely anyone on any internet forum knows what they are doing.
I will tell you right now, a good Donphan player will thrash any ZP$T variant. I will also mention that Reshiphlosion is going to preform better at larger tournaments, because it is more consistent, ZP$T is preforming well right now because we are only having 4-5 round tournaments. ZPS is crowded, there is no room for any originality, your opponent will have already seen every card in your deck, and know how to play against everyone, Reshiram has a lot of tech room.
I have no idea why ZPS is getting so much love, the only reason it is better is it is faster, and it will die out almost instantly. You will never donk with ZPS, I don't see where people are getting this, you are not going to have three energy in your opening hand along with a Pachirishu and Shaymin, and a Zekrom active, not to mention your opponent needs a one pokémon start. The chance of a donk is no reason to choose ZPS over something else.
I will tell you right now, a good Donphan player will thrash any ZP$T variant. I will also mention that Reshiphlosion is going to preform better at larger tournaments, because it is more consistent, ZP$T is preforming well right now because we are only having 4-5 round tournaments. ZPS is crowded, there is no room for any originality, your opponent will have already seen every card in your deck, and know how to play against everyone, Reshiram has a lot of tech room.
I have no idea why ZPS is getting so much love, the only reason it is better is it is faster, and it will die out almost instantly. You will never donk with ZPS, I don't see where people are getting this, you are not going to have three energy in your opening hand along with a Pachirishu and Shaymin, and a Zekrom active, not to mention your opponent needs a one pokémon start. The chance of a donk is no reason to choose ZPS over something else.
It sounds like somebody needs to test the deck with Tornadus. The deck no longer dies out. At all. It's not used for the donk, although even a list not based around it will get the donk 50-60% of the time they open Tornadus.Vulpix Yolk said:
/thread
There's really no replacement for testing decks yourself.
Yeah, Mew works well enough for a Goth counter.
ZPST can win against Goth even without Mew, though. As long as you do constant damage starting T2, your opponent will be under pressure to find places to put all the damage. If you're really worried about the matchup, though, Mew will give you a great shot at winning.
ZPST can win against Goth even without Mew, though. As long as you do constant damage starting T2, your opponent will be under pressure to find places to put all the damage. If you're really worried about the matchup, though, Mew will give you a great shot at winning.
^If you don't donk and they flip over Solosis with Oddish or Gothita, you might as well pick up your cards there. It's seriously 5-95 if you don't donk or play techs to beat it. Especially Oddish since against Donphan they OHKO your Zekrom and it only hits for 80 and Tornadus can only do 60 at a time. This is results of actual testing, not theorymon.
Celebi23 said:Reshiram Cons:
-It has a much worse Mewbox and Stage 1 matchup than Zekrom, but Magneboar, google and Goth are all just as bad if not worse
-It's slow
-It relies on bench support
-You have to scoop up your cards whenever they flip over a water Pokemon
-It can't donk and performs worse than Zekrom in 30+3
-It's not Zekrom
Not really. Reshiram does exceptionally well against Mewbox. It also does well against Stage 1s if you're smart and Catcher up Zorua/Zoroark's.
It's slow maybe compared to ZPST, but it's the second fastest deck in the format right now. It's only slow compared to ZPST because ZPST can get set up T1 and Tyram has to wait to T2.
That's not a huge problem if you can get multiple Typhlosions out.
Eh. Not really. For example, Blastoise/Floatzel is 50-50 for this deck, possibly even more in Tyram's favor.
You're correct in saying that, but no deck is going to perform as well as Zekrom in 30+3.
Play whatever deck you feel is most comfortable. We could theorymon all day and I'd be more than willing to do that, but it comes down to what you think feels right.
Gale, TyRam is 3rd fastest because Stage1 Variants are defenitey faster but on the other parts, you're right.
Just manage your energy properly. I've never once had a problem with Mewbox and I've rarely seen others have problems with it. It's not because the other player sucked or because their list was bad or I haven't tested against it enough. It just requires you to predict certain things.
I will say that about 75% of the time Zekrom will get its ideal set up. Maybe more. Even if it gets its ideal set up, it's possible for Tyram to bounce back from that if you're going to put the two decks against each other. If Zekrom isn't set up T1, then that gives Tyram a lot of options.
Tyram sets up so much faster than Blastzel. That's all there is too it.
Tyram has an overall consistency you don't find in other decks. Playing Ninetales+Cheren will keep you sustained for a long time and make you a lot faster. Even if Ninetales is Catcher ko'd you either have another Ninetales or have things like PONT, Sages, or Cheren to keep you fast. Tyram has options and next to Zekrom it definitely has the best overall matchups.
I will say that about 75% of the time Zekrom will get its ideal set up. Maybe more. Even if it gets its ideal set up, it's possible for Tyram to bounce back from that if you're going to put the two decks against each other. If Zekrom isn't set up T1, then that gives Tyram a lot of options.
Tyram sets up so much faster than Blastzel. That's all there is too it.
Tyram has an overall consistency you don't find in other decks. Playing Ninetales+Cheren will keep you sustained for a long time and make you a lot faster. Even if Ninetales is Catcher ko'd you either have another Ninetales or have things like PONT, Sages, or Cheren to keep you fast. Tyram has options and next to Zekrom it definitely has the best overall matchups.
How exactly did the Mewbox play out from both ends? What was each player's game plan? "Managing your energy properly" isn't enough information for me to make a good counter-argument, since the way I've seen the matchup play out the only way to end up with a Typhlosion is to pile all your energy on it, but then you never get to attack with Reshiram.
It all depends on the list. My list only T1's around 50% of the time, but I feel like it's pretty close to ideal. You could run other cards like Dual Ball to make it faster, but I just don't think they're necessary. Some lists will get into the 75%-ish range.
Zekrom vs TyRam is 50-50 for sure, but that doesn't factor in Zekrom potentially winning on the first turn. Playing two decks against each other doesn't necessarily determine which is better anyway. Samurott/Donphan destroys Reshiram, but Reshiram is a better deck.
Most Blastzel run 3-4 Twins, so their plan from the beginning is to go down on prizes. The good lists usually run 1-2 Defender to Twins for specifically for TyRam so you can't OHKO Blastoise as easily. When they can Junk Arm for it, that means a 2-1 prize exchange (if you Catcher KO something, then it's 3-2) rate and they can Catcher KO your Typhlosions if they have it (if they don't they can go for a benched Ninetales, Vulpix, Cyndaquil, Quilvava, damaged Reshiram or any active Reshiram), but really it doesn't matter. Most Blastzel also run a Zoroark line (mostly for Zekrom) that can take a couple prizes as they build up Blastoise.
TyRam does have overall consistency, for sure. That's one of its only strengths over Zekrom - it doesn't run energy dry if you can get setup. I haven't seen Cheren in most lists - Sage's is much better imo. It doesn't have a lot of options at all - that's one of the reasons I hate it so much. Your only game plan is to spam Reshiram while setting up the double Typhlosion. If you can't do that, you lose. If you do that, your opponent can usually predict what happens for the rest of the game. Running techs that assume your Plan A doesn't go off tend to make the deck less consistent.
Also, it doesn't really have the best overall matchups. Gothitelle/Reuniclus basically destroys everything (60-70% favorable) except Mew and Magnezone. Mew is pretty easy to tech for if you see a lot of it, and Magnezone can be beat if you get a T2 Gothitelle. Zekrom is basically a 50-50 deck, as is TyRam, barring TyRam's slightly better Donphan matchup and Zekrom's hugely better Mew matchup. Both of these decks fold to Reuniclus and Magneboar. The decks with the clearly best overall matchups (Vileplume, Gothitelle, Magnezone) fold in a timed environment. Neither Zekrom or Reshiram have anywhere near as good as matchups as the slower cards.
It all depends on the list. My list only T1's around 50% of the time, but I feel like it's pretty close to ideal. You could run other cards like Dual Ball to make it faster, but I just don't think they're necessary. Some lists will get into the 75%-ish range.
Zekrom vs TyRam is 50-50 for sure, but that doesn't factor in Zekrom potentially winning on the first turn. Playing two decks against each other doesn't necessarily determine which is better anyway. Samurott/Donphan destroys Reshiram, but Reshiram is a better deck.
Most Blastzel run 3-4 Twins, so their plan from the beginning is to go down on prizes. The good lists usually run 1-2 Defender to Twins for specifically for TyRam so you can't OHKO Blastoise as easily. When they can Junk Arm for it, that means a 2-1 prize exchange (if you Catcher KO something, then it's 3-2) rate and they can Catcher KO your Typhlosions if they have it (if they don't they can go for a benched Ninetales, Vulpix, Cyndaquil, Quilvava, damaged Reshiram or any active Reshiram), but really it doesn't matter. Most Blastzel also run a Zoroark line (mostly for Zekrom) that can take a couple prizes as they build up Blastoise.
TyRam does have overall consistency, for sure. That's one of its only strengths over Zekrom - it doesn't run energy dry if you can get setup. I haven't seen Cheren in most lists - Sage's is much better imo. It doesn't have a lot of options at all - that's one of the reasons I hate it so much. Your only game plan is to spam Reshiram while setting up the double Typhlosion. If you can't do that, you lose. If you do that, your opponent can usually predict what happens for the rest of the game. Running techs that assume your Plan A doesn't go off tend to make the deck less consistent.
Also, it doesn't really have the best overall matchups. Gothitelle/Reuniclus basically destroys everything (60-70% favorable) except Mew and Magnezone. Mew is pretty easy to tech for if you see a lot of it, and Magnezone can be beat if you get a T2 Gothitelle. Zekrom is basically a 50-50 deck, as is TyRam, barring TyRam's slightly better Donphan matchup and Zekrom's hugely better Mew matchup. Both of these decks fold to Reuniclus and Magneboar. The decks with the clearly best overall matchups (Vileplume, Gothitelle, Magnezone) fold in a timed environment. Neither Zekrom or Reshiram have anywhere near as good as matchups as the slower cards.
By managing your energies properly, I'm referring to making sure you have an answer to Sludge Drag with retreating, and knowing whether to attack with Rehsiram or Typhlosion depending on what threats you're facing. You obviously want to kill a Mew with a Typhlosion and kill Yanmegas with Reshi, so you want to plan ahead to try to make it possible for you to do so.
As far as Blastzel goes, it's not enough of a metagame deck for me to really want to further the discussion on it. It honestly depends on the list and the player. Blastzel isn't a safe play because of Zekrom and it overall being not as fast a deck as most things in the format.
My list runs Cheren -and- Sages ;o. My list can be called unorthodox just because I maximize consistency over anything else, and I often find myself attacking with Typhlosions, which is actually ideal. Tier 1 right now is honestly, in my opinion, Zekrom, Reshi variants (mostly Tyram), and Goth. There's a Tier 1.5 definitely, which mostly consists of Stage 1s and Mew.
As far as Blastzel goes, it's not enough of a metagame deck for me to really want to further the discussion on it. It honestly depends on the list and the player. Blastzel isn't a safe play because of Zekrom and it overall being not as fast a deck as most things in the format.
My list runs Cheren -and- Sages ;o. My list can be called unorthodox just because I maximize consistency over anything else, and I often find myself attacking with Typhlosions, which is actually ideal. Tier 1 right now is honestly, in my opinion, Zekrom, Reshi variants (mostly Tyram), and Goth. There's a Tier 1.5 definitely, which mostly consists of Stage 1s and Mew.
If you can manage to hold it out for the first few turns, I'd prefer ReshiPhlosion over ZPST any day. The main issue with ReshiPhlosion is that you have a ''weak'' early game to get everything rolling, which can deplete a lot of resources in the proces (by either burning them yourself, or them getting KO'ed and the likes). In comparison to ZPST though, ReshiPhlosion has a ''great'' mid to late game, and once it gets rolling, ReshiPhlosion is really difficult to take down, no matter what deck you play. Of course, no matchup is all favorable for ReshiPhlosion, but with a few exceptions ReshiPhlosion has really no ''bad matchups'' either.
In terms of ''early game raw power'', ZPST is so far the undefeated king; rivalled alone by the old BLS deck (from the exUnseen Forces era). ZPST's overall performance is really boosted by the release of Tornadus, as now the deck really has no ''dead'' late game. Starting to smack 80 to 160 first turn is nothing to scoff at, especially if you take into consideration the deck can now keep that up turn after turn. ZPST might look like a real ''no brainer all-out deck'', but an inexperienced enough player will really find him/herself in a pinch sometimes.
Both decks have their selling points, so see what fits with you. While one deck is faster than the other, and they have both different means to get there, they practically do the same thing; smack for a ton of damage. To me, it all comes down to one question: Do you prefer to go rushing in for the KO, or would you rather take your time to plan out your strategy before you go in for the KO?
So in the end, it will, was, and always will be, personal preference.
In terms of ''early game raw power'', ZPST is so far the undefeated king; rivalled alone by the old BLS deck (from the exUnseen Forces era). ZPST's overall performance is really boosted by the release of Tornadus, as now the deck really has no ''dead'' late game. Starting to smack 80 to 160 first turn is nothing to scoff at, especially if you take into consideration the deck can now keep that up turn after turn. ZPST might look like a real ''no brainer all-out deck'', but an inexperienced enough player will really find him/herself in a pinch sometimes.
Both decks have their selling points, so see what fits with you. While one deck is faster than the other, and they have both different means to get there, they practically do the same thing; smack for a ton of damage. To me, it all comes down to one question: Do you prefer to go rushing in for the KO, or would you rather take your time to plan out your strategy before you go in for the KO?
So in the end, it will, was, and always will be, personal preference.
Of the two decks, I would say Reshiphlosion is by far the easier to use. For that reason, while ZPS concerns me slightly more in my matchup, I'd say go Reshipholsion. It has built in draw, built in energy recovery, good attack power, and generally good matchups. ZPS is good, but I do think it's harder to use. It relies, I think, on at least a decent starting hand, and I think ZPS requires you to sometimes make difficult play decisions, at least comparatively speaking. Reshipholsion on the other hand is a very simple beatstick, it's not that hard to figure out, it's effective, and it's cheap, and for that reason, I recommend it to anyone starting or getting back into the competitive field.