Senate declares USA to be a battleground

The Fallen One

COWER, MORTALS
Member
Saw this article on facebook and well guys...time to evacuate the country and/or cause a Revolution. Unless the media is falsely interpreting this bill...it's some scary stuff.

Clicky

Have fun, and discuss.

EDIT: To clarify, I think this is quite probably media being silly, but still I thought it was interesting.
 
as I said on chat, I am 85% sure that this article is greatly stretching the truth. the main thing they are worried about - the right to infinitely detain individuals, as mentioned in the Wired article quoted - was actually part of an amendment (the Udall Amendment) to the bill that was shot down in the Senate, something they failed to mention in the article itself. from what I've read, the rest of the bill is just a maintenance of the status quo as it's been for the past few years as far as military is concerned.

(inb4 Card Slinger J)
 
Yeah this topic is already being debated on Serebii.net with the mention of
the War on Terror being out of control:

http://www.serebiiforums.com/showthread.php?t=552330

I know I shouldn't post links to other websites but this is important.
 
I can't say I'm fully in touch with the situation, so I won't post an opinion until I've read through the entire thing (especially as the article in the OP appears to be poorly researched). What I will say though is that I really dislike this "War on terror" phrase-- What truly is terror and how can we ever define when the war is over?
 
I can't say I'm fully in touch with the situation, so I won't post an opinion until I've read through the entire thing (especially as the article in the OP appears to be poorly researched). What I will say though is that I really dislike this "War on terror" phrase-- What truly is terror and how can we ever define when the war is over?

This is the truth. It is so hard to define terror. "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." But in relation to this bill thing, its not like this thing is gonna change what goes on in America. I'm pretty they didn't end up changing anything about the indefinite holding of citizens.
 
Apparently the article is fake, I read some of the comments and if this a real bill, just read it yourself.
 
it is a real bill. its mainly for money/rights of the military and what they can do. the main thing of concern is how it broadens the aspect of what "terrorism" is, and what the military can do to so called "terrorists"
 
I doubt that the bill really does what the article says it does. It seems completely ridiculous, not to mention that the news company also has a video on "The Constitution is Gone!" Any news that posts those kind of things is obviously lying.
 
its semi truth.

they just blew it out of proportion..

look at section 1031

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-112s1867es/pdf/BILLS-112s1867es.pdf
 
thank you for that, chief zavala.

(e) AUTHORITIES.—Nothing in this section shall be
11 construed to affect existing law or authorities, relating to
12 the detention of United States citizens, lawful resident
13 aliens of the United States or any other persons who are
14 captured or arrested in the United States.

pretty much says it
 
Yeah figured it was pretty much just media blowing up everything out of proportion but I wanted to see everyone's input.
 
The White House has already threatened to veto this bill:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/02/white-house-veto-indefinite-detention_n_1126399.html

I know it's late but this web article was also posted last month before Thanksgiving If my memory serves me correctly:

http://www.aclu.org/blog/national-security/senators-demand-military-lock-american-citizens-battlefield-they-define-being
 
This article is absolute nonsense. Let's objectively prove this using a little bit of grading. We'll be nice and give it 10 points. We'll subtract a point for each thing it does wrong. Let's go.

1. The image has nothing to do with the bill. The bill supposedly claims to want to jail and interrogate innocent Americans. The article makes no reference to public protest, or anything of the sort. In fact, these people are protesting the government. The article talks about the other thing around: the government detaining people for no real reason. This image is only being used to enrage the reader and put them up in arms. It succeeded, but it would fail a journalism class. -1 point

2. Poor appeal to authority. EVEN WIRED agrees with this journalist? Last I checked, WIRED was about technology and its place in society. WIRED's opinion on public bills should carry very little weight as that is not what they specialize in. If this journalist were to actually care about getting a credible quote from an expert, WIRED is not a good place to look. The reporter from WIRED they did quote, Spencer Ackerman, has a reputation of being extreme and "randomly picking conservatives -- Fred Barnes, Karl Rove, who cares -- and call them racists." (Ann Coulter). Probably not the first guy you want to be quoting... -1 point

3. Incorrect use of a quote. They prefaced the WIRED quote as being "outraged". There is no outrage to be found... just the writer pointing out the irony in the act and possible areas of confusion. Ackerman took a more sarcastic approach to the bill. There was no rage in his words, just confusion and sarcasm. Here's the full article if you care to read it -1 point

4. Bin Laden Bread? This picture is absolutely pointless and has nothing to do with the current article. The article the Bin Laden Bread refers to is how it is dangerous to name products after famous terrorists. This has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the current article. It does stir some emotional response in the reader as Americans typically see Bin Laden as a bad guy. It gets Americans even more up-in-arms. The careful reader will figure out that this has nothing to do with the article and is not even mentioned. -1 point.

5. Where's the proof? This article actually fails to prove anything. It makes a claim about how bad this bill is, but it never actually quotes the bill. If we got a paragraph from the bill, we might be more inclined to oppose the bill. This article fails to cite any of the provisions so that we may read them up on our own. We'll just have to go through the entire act to find the parts that the writer doesn't like. Also, the writer forgets to mention that we can actually read up on the article in pdf form... It is a long act, and most readers don't want to look at the entire thing. Assuming that the journalist read the entire thing (as he should have to get a gist of the act), he could have saved us some time by linking to sections that he didn't like. -1 point

6. Background. The author of this section forgets to mention the background of this act. It has been passed every year for the past 48 years. What it generally does is form the annual budget for the Department of Defense. Perhaps he could have pointed out that this was a weird inclusion to an otherwise normal act. He makes it sound like this is the worst thing ever. In actuality, he only dislikes a portion of the act as opposed to the whole thing. Once again, in text citations would help us big time. -1 point

7. Putting words into the Act. This article's title claims that the Senate wants to make USA a "battleground" The author then says that the bill declares USA as a battleground. After a quick ctrl + f of the act, I can tell you this is absolutely false. They never used the word. Adams also claims that the bill says that it can apply to Americans "if we want it to". I can tell you for a fact that those words were never used in the act, and Adams should use more descriptive words if he wants to be accurate. USE EXACT QUOTES if it is that bad. Because he did not use exact quotes or do a line citation, it is clear that he is incorrectly paraphrasing the text. -1 point

8. Failure to take government into account. Adams claims that this bill will "shred the remaining tenants of the Bill of Rights". Little does he know, that the Supremacy Clause of the Constitution (Article VI Clause 2) declares that the Constitution is the Supreme Law of the Land. Because the Bill of Rights is part of the Constitution, it isn't going anywhere. Shredding tenants of the Bill of Rights is absurd as the Bill of Rights (and any other Amendments to the Constitution) are superior to any law or act not Amended to the Constitution. This has been proved time and time again by supreme court cases, and it will continue to be proven. -1 point

9. Loaded words. Adams used quite a few big words that create negative emotion in the reader's heart. Adams claims that " If this is signed into law, it will ... unleash upon America a total military dictatorship, complete with secret arrests, secret prisons, unlawful interrogations, indefinite detainment without ever being charged with a crime". That is a pretty big claim... especially with no preface. He is bringing these things up for the first time in this list without any explanation. In most English classes, the first lesson you learn is to back up your claims. We never hear anything about secrecy in this article nor will we ever after this quote. Moreover, he has not proven to us that this act can make America into a "military dictatorship". In fact, he has implied quite the opposite. A military dictatorship is when a country is ruled by its military. The fact that CONGRESS is making this act happen shows that they still have power in the government, and they will be elected as they always have been. Americans typically oppose dictatorship, so they would react negatively to this quote. -1 point

10. Posse Comitatus? This is a fairly minor point, but Adams claims that the act overrides Posse Comitatus. In actuality, this is an act from congress, so it does not come close to overriding Posse Comitatus. Moreover, Posse Comitatus only applies to when the military is being used to execute laws. This applied to certain cases, but not this one. Think more along the lines of Little Rock 9. If what Adams is claiming is true, this would give military the ability to detain citizens for no reason... that isn't executing laws, so it doesn't apply. -1 Point.


So this article's grand total score is 0/10. GREAT JOB! I could have deducted more, but I'll leave it as it stands now. These were, for the most part, objective criticisms about the article based on Adams' own words. The article is clearly not credible in any way, so don't take it seriously. If Adams cared about making it more credible, he would have worked harder to fix some of the obvious issues.
 
I got some bad news folks, the bill we're discussing on this thread recently passed the U.S. Senate floor thus suspending Habeus corpus from the U.S. Constitution. Here's the proof:

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=112&session=1&vote=00218

Only seven senators thought that this was a bad idea. I propose that we, American citizens, vote out everyone who voted Yea on this bill. I would suggest impeachment, but with 93 senators (I haven't found the voting info on the House yet), I think impeachment might take awhile...
 
Card Slinger J said:
I got some bad news folks, the bill we're discussing on this thread recently passed the U.S. Senate floor thus suspending Habeus corpus from the U.S. Constitution. Here's the proof:

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=112&session=1&vote=00218

Only seven senators thought that this was a bad idea. I propose that we, American citizens, vote out everyone who voted Yea on this bill. I would suggest impeachment, but with 93 senators (I haven't found the voting info on the House yet), I think impeachment might take awhile...
do you read anybody else's posts when you make threads like this or do you just show up with blinders on and post articles/information that support your view?
 
Well, look this bill that was just recently passed has put me on edge and I can't help but let people know about what's going on. So yeah it's scary. There's still a chance to petition against it:

https://secure.aclu.org/site/Advocacy?cmd=display&page=UserAction&id=3895&s_sbsrc=111205_AdvocacyNDAA_fixNDAAredirect
 
You still have yet to prove that this is an issue. Perhaps citing parts of the bill that you don't like would be a good idea. You are throwing around very big claims without evidence. We're suspending Habeas Corpus? o_O I've already pretty conclusively proven that the original article was unreliable and poorly written. You have yet to prove that you should be taken seriously... It is clear that a majority of congressmen think that this is a good idea -- regardless of party. It can't be that bad if you have 93 people with different affiliations and beliefs agreeing on this law.
 
Alright is this source from Wikipedia good enough proof? Yes I know people edit on that site but it's usually pretty legit compared to what other stuff you find through the Internet that's almost as half-baked as the stuff you read in the tabloids:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Defense_Authorization_Act_for_Fiscal_Year_2012

So it turns out that Innocent U.S. Citizens would still be protected under the Bill of Rights by being exempt from being detained by the U.S. Military in terms of the provisions of the final draft of this bill.
 
CSJ, Zero asked you to cite from the bill itself, so we know for sure that there's something about it that you're troubled with rather than you expressing concerns of others.
 
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