P!P/Rules Should Garbodor be Banned?

bbninjas

bbninjas

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So, I've seen a lot of members discussing whether or not Garbodor BKP should be banned, so let's make a proper thread for this! Garbodor has been historically influential in past metagames with its powerful Garbotoxin Ability that shuts off all other Abilities. However, thus far in the current 2017 Standard format, there are no Trainers cards that can discard Pokemon Tool cards. This means the normal and reliable counter to Garbodor will no longer be available!

So what do you think? Will the lack of tool-discarding Trainers cause Garbodor to become a prominent card in the upcoming 2017 Standard format? Will it be a major concern, or is Garbodor just an over-exaggerated issue? Should Garbodor be banned, or not?

As always, remember to give reasons for your opinions and remember to respect other's opinions.
 
Absolutely not. Many decks function largely or wholly without Abilities, and even in the absence of Scrapper/Megaphone/Xerosic a player can Lysandre and Knock Out a problematic Garbodor. Players may have to consider workarounds, but Ability lock is much less troublesome for most decks than Item lock and we've had that as a force for years. Toad no longer exists in Standard alongside Garbodor either, so the oppressive Toad/Garb/Hammers decks aren't around.

Garbodor is a hard counter to Ability-reliant decks that can still be managed. You'll have to account for it if your deck needs its Abilities, but that's a reasonable expectation for a good deck to handle.

Bans are for absolutely game-breaking cards, not cards that are inconvenient for certain other decks.
 
No. As I mentioned on my post on the 2017 forum, I think Garbodor isn't broken just horribly timed. I think this could actually be kind of helpful to the format, leaning us away from decks with heavy abilities (Treveant, Greninja, Genesect, Vespiplume, etc. (even though most of those are being rotated, but...)) and bring a more attack based format (Medicham and Raichu anyone?) I think a ban is unnecessary. Unlike Shiftry and Lysandre's Trump Card, Garbodor can be countered with a Lysandre, (and not a Hex Maniac as I had misstated.) As Asclepius24 stated: "Band are for absolutely game-breaking cards, not cards that are inconvenient for certain decks." I think that for the most part sums it up. But I hope they reprint a Tool Scrapper, Startling Meagphone, or Xerosic in XY12.
 
Asclepius24 said:
Absolutely not. Many decks function largely or wholly without Abilities, and even in the absence of Scrapper/Megaphone/Xerosic a player can Lysandre and Knock Out a problematic Garbodor. Players may have to consider workarounds, but Ability lock is much less problematic for most decks than Item lock and we've had that as a force for years. Toad no longer exists in Standard alongside Garbodor either, so the oppressive Toad/Garb/Hammers decks aren't around.

Garbodor is a hard counter to Ability-reliant decks that can still be managed. You'll have to account for it if your deck needs its Abilities, but that's a reasonable expectation for a good deck to handle.

Bans are for absolutely game-breaking cards, not cards that are inconvenient for certain other decks.
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You fail to see that not all decks are super aggro and need abilities to setup. Maybe your deck doesn't need it but its naive to many decks dont need them. I'm not talking just shaymin EX but abilities in general. Those decks that need abilities to get going simply can't Lysandre a Garbodor and deal the damage needed where there may be another one in place. Also most cant even give up the support for the turn to deal with it.

There doesn't need to be a hard counter to abilities if you cant even stop the lock effectively to begin with. I also don't know what a 'good deck' is so you'll need to tell me what that is. If a card existed that said your opponent can't any benched Pokemon, what does a 'good deck' do to handle that? There is something called balance, which that card isn't in the upcoming format.

PineDog said:
No. As I mentioned on my post on the 2017 forum, I think Garbodor isn't broken just horribly timed. I think this could actually be kind of helpful to the format, leaning us away from decks with heavy abilities (Treveant, Greninja, Genesect, Vespiplume, etc. (even though most of those are being rotated, but...)) and bring a more attack based format (Medicham and Raichu anyone?) I think a ban is unnecessary. Unlike Shiftry and Lysandre's Trump Card, Garbodor can be countered with a Lysandre, (and not a Hex Maniac as I had misstated.) As Asclepius24 stated: "Band are for absolutely game-breaking cards, not cards that are inconvenient for certain decks." I think that for the most part sums it up. But I hope they reprint a Tool Scrapper, Startling Meagphone, or Xerosic in XY12.
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"Game breaking" is a super subjective term. Primal Groudon EX is 'game breaking' since it has a mechanic the game no longer recognizes while having access to the best support the game has to offer. A card doesn't need to be broken to be ban worthy. If a card exist that breaks a game mechanic easily and has no counter in format, then it needs to be banned until such a counter is made.
 
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Reminder that you have several turns (2 minimum going first) before Garbodor comes into play, and then, it's not invincible. Lysandre exists.
 
crystal_pidgeot said:
I also don't know what a 'good deck' is so you'll need to tell me what that is. If a card existed that said your opponent can't any benched Pokemon, what does a 'good deck' do to handle that? There is something called balance, which that card isn't in the upcoming format.
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A "good deck" is a deck that's built well - consistent with a cohesive strategy and that considers and accounts for its bad matchups and weaknesses.

Such a card as you describe does not and will not exist and I won't indulge absurd hypotheticals.
 
crystal_pidgeot said:
You fail to see that not all decks are super aggro and need abilities to setup. Maybe your deck doesn't need it but its naive to many decks dont need them. I'm not talking just shaymin EX but abilities in general. Those decks that need abilities to get going simply can't Lysandre a Garbodor and deal the damage needed where there may be another one in place. Also most cant even give up the support for the turn to deal with it.

There doesn't need to be a hard counter to abilities if you cant even stop the lock effectively to begin with. I also don't know what a 'good deck' is so you'll need to tell me what that is. If a card existed that said your opponent can't any benched Pokemon, what does a 'good deck' do to handle that? There is something called balance, which that card isn't in the upcoming format.
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Alas they are several decks recently that don't have counters, Pokémon loves to print those type of cards. But unless they are busted to the point of no return on ALL decks, then they need to be banned. While some decks can't live without abilities, some can, and will probably rise creating a more diverse format. Some making a risk it for the biscuit with crazy ability decks, and other taking a more conservative damage heavy deck. In my opinion a "good deck" is what Asclpius said, but I'll add this on:

A good deck is a deck which is prepared against a good majority of decks, both rouge and expected. A good deck can take most decks and take them decently.
 
Asclepius24 said:
A "good deck" is a deck that's built well - consistent with a cohesive strategy and that considers and accounts for its bad matchups and weaknesses.

Such a card as you describe does not and will not exist and I won't indulge absurd hypotheticals.
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Many decks are built well but if nothing exist in the format to counter one card, how does one counter it. I'm interested in discussion and one as mighty as yourself should want that. I hope they don't print such a card but whats stopping them? The point was you don't make and release such effects without a way to deal with it.

thegrovylekid said:
Reminder that you have several turns (2 minimum going first) before Garbodor comes into play, and then, it's not invincible. Lysandre exists.
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Lysandre isn't a counter and this is assuming you can attack on your first or second turn of the game, the target is in play, you have Lysandre in your hand and other factors dont disrupt you like N.
 
crystal_pidgeot said:
Many decks are built well but if nothing exist in the format to counter one card, how does one counter it. I'm interested in discussion and one as mighty as yourself should want that. I hope they don't print such a card but whats stopping them? The point was you don't make and release such effects without a way to deal with it.
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Nothing "mighty" about me.

There aren't hard counters for Garbodor in Standard as of September, but there are ways to deal with it and we don't know what's coming in our next sets. We haven't had a single event in the format and people want to ban a card for being overpowered based on theorymon alone.
 
Asclepius24 said:
Nothing "mighty" about me.

There aren't hard counters for Garbodor in Standard as of September, but there are ways to deal with it and we don't know what's coming in our next sets. We haven't had a single event in the format and people want to ban a card for being overpowered based on theorymon alone.
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We had a format like this before so we can make some prediction since some of the cards still exist. League promos an be a game changer for this and those promo can be good cards but right now, there will be at least another 3 months before a set is released that might do something to fix the issue if one exist. Lock effects have been very powerful the last few years and this Garbodor is a reprint. We just want a format without all these locks. I really don't care if its banned or counters are made. We just want a balanced game where the mechanic can be played.
 
crystal_pidgeot said:
I hope they don't print such a card but whats stopping them?
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The meta. In 2013, it was huge at states, dropped of the radar at nats (I think) only to make a reappearance at worlds. There was a cycle: abilities being played causes Garbodor to be played. Garb causes a drop in abilities which causes less Garb. Abilities resume seeing play.
 
Latte1504 said:
The meta. In 2013, it was huge at states, dropped of the radar at nats (I think) only to make a reappearance at worlds. There was a cycle: abilities being played causes Garbodor to be played. Garb causes a drop in abilities which causes less Garb. Abilities resume seeing play.
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Full cycle activated.
 
As for me, I certainly don't think Garbodor warrants a ban. I do not like the card, but banning it is extreme. I think countering Garbodor is much more an inconvenience than an impossibility.

As already mentioned, there's Lysandre available to counter. There's also some hidden tool-discarder techs, while much less flexible and reliable than Tool Scrapper, Megaphone and Xerosic, they could still be decent for decks that can't function with Ability lock. I'm thinking about Beedrill-EX in particular, but also Mr. Mime PRC, both with a single [C] cost. It's risky but it could work for decks with major issues.

crystal_pidgeot said:
You fail to see that not all decks are super aggro and need abilities to setup. Maybe your deck doesn't need it but its naive to many decks dont need them. I'm not talking just shaymin EX but abilities in general. Those decks that need abilities to get going simply can't Lysandre a Garbodor and deal the damage needed where there may be another one in place. Also most cant even give up the support for the turn to deal with it.
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I'm having difficulty thinking of non-Shaymin and non-Octillery Abilities that are important for decks, to be honest. There's Unown, but it is mostly only useful for Vespiquen. I think that the decks that will have difficulty facing Garbodor will be rogues, not major archetypes. Vespiquen and Night March would probably have difficulty against the right Garbodor variants, but they probably will not be existent in 2017.

I don't like Garbodor as it arguably hurts rogue creativity*, as often rogue decks require gimmicky Abilities to execute their strategy. Nevertheless, this is a situation players should prepare for by including attacker techs that are not reliant on Abilities. If this centerpiece Ability is like Vileplume's, then Garbodor is a hard counter... and that is absolutely fine! Hard counters are everywhere in the PTCG. Besides, I'd imagine that most decks that can't beat Garbodor also cannot reliably beat many other highly competitive decks. I don't think a Garbodor should be banned because a small portion of viable decks lose against it.

*The argument goes both ways, as Garbodor forces rogue builders to think outside the box.
 
Latte1504 said:
The meta. In 2013, it was huge at states, dropped of the radar at nats (I think) only to make a reappearance at worlds. There was a cycle: abilities being played causes Garbodor to be played. Garb causes a drop in abilities which causes less Garb. Abilities resume seeing play.
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That cycle right?

bbninjas said:
As for me, I certainly don't think Garbodor warrants a ban. I do not like the card, but banning it is extreme. I think countering Garbodor is much more an inconvenience than an impossibility.

As already mentioned, there's Lysandre available to counter. There's also some hidden tool-discarder techs, while much less flexible and reliable than Tool Scrapper, Megaphone and Xerosic, they could still be decent for decks that can't function with Ability lock. I'm thinking about Beedrill-EX in particular, but also Mr. Mime PRC, both with a single [C] cost. It's risky but it could work for decks with major issues.


I'm having difficulty thinking of non-Shaymin and non-Octillery Abilities that are important for decks, to be honest. There's Unown, but it is mostly only useful for Vespiquen. I think that the decks that will have difficulty facing Garbodor will be rogues, not major archetypes. Vespiquen and Night March would probably have difficulty against the right Garbodor variants, but they probably will not be existent in 2017.

I don't like Garbodor as it arguably hurts rogue creativity*, as often rogue decks require gimmicky Abilities to execute their strategy. Nevertheless, this is a situation players should prepare for by including attacker techs that are not reliant on Abilities. If this centerpiece Ability is like Vileplume's, then Garbodor is a hard counter... and that is absolutely fine! Hard counters are everywhere in the PTCG. Besides, I'd imagine that most decks that can't beat Garbodor also cannot reliably beat many other highly competitive decks. I don't think a Garbodor should be banned because a small portion of viable decks lose against it.

*The argument goes both ways, as Garbodor forces rogue builders to think outside the box.
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Not all abilities need to draw. I like Golduck Break and Pokemon with abilities like that. You also have Magnezone. Just abilities in general. I'm not saying a deck doesn't need to be prepared. Anyone playing n the meta should at least know threats to them and prepare for them. I like to build decks that require skill to play and these decks require some time to setup and I need abilities to do that but there isn't a way to prevent Garbodor. Its not a small portion of decks, it just cuts out decks that use abilities in general. Garbodor favors decks that want to dump as much damage as possible. Hard counters are fine if they are countering that has been over-dominate, like safeguard but even then there are ways around that.

bbninjas said:
I ended up making a list of cards that can discard tools from PRC to FCO, so I'll just dump that here.

Any Pokemon:
Beedrill-EX
Minccino FCO
Mr. Mime PRC

Active Pokemon:
Raticate BKP
Fletchinder ROS
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Fair enough but the last 2 Pokemon aren't even real option but the top 3 use your attack for the turn, which does nothing because Garbodor can just get another tool and they require at least 2 deck spaces if you want to avoid something being prized and Minccino requires 4 spaces if you want to avoid the same thing and I dont know anyone that wants to use a 160 HP EX to do what a trainer could do. Its still an option but people seem to like the word 'viable' a lot and these aren't viable options. If you have to spend your attack to deal with it (which they can just reattach next turn) and maybe give up a prize or 2, then what good are they? All you did was put your opponent closer to their win condition and you have nothing left to show for it because now you're ability locked again and down 1-2 prize cards.

These aren't counters, which is the problem. I should be able to discard the tools on my turn and play my strategy on my turn so I can play and not hope my opponent can't attach a tool again.
 
@crystal_pidgeot I have one other soft counter for you. Vileplume locks items, therefore locking Garbodor from placing a tool (unless Garbodor plays Hex Maniac, which is very counter-intuitive). If a powerful, ability-less Grass type becomes popular, I could see Garbodor vs Vileplume wars next format.
 
NinjaPenguin said:
@crystal_pidgeot I have one other soft counter for you. Vileplume locks items, therefore locking Garbodor from placing a tool (unless Garbodor plays Hex Maniac, which is very counter-intuitive). If a powerful, ability-less Grass type becomes popular, I could see Garbodor vs Vileplume wars next format.
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Toolbox decks cant afford the space for a Vileplume since you'll need your items for setup. but they can find away around that because the new Klefki can attach itself as a Pokemon Tool which gets around the lock and turns you off.

I do want to say m-Sceptile/Vileplume could be very powerful if Primal Groudon becomes a thing, which I expect.
 
crystal_pidgeot said:
the new Klefki can attach itself as a Pokemon Tool which gets around the lock and turns you off.
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I strongly doubt that any deck with Garbodor will want to play Kelfki A) because of the danger of a Kelfki start and B) It gets discarded after one turn of use
 
NinjaPenguin said:
I strongly doubt that any deck with Garbodor will want to play Kelfki A) because of the danger of a Kelfki start and B) It gets discarded after one turn of use
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The point is that Kelfki is a example of a well designed card. One turn is what most decks that need abilities or items get to do anything. The Garbodor player has an option against ability-based item lock with this Kelfki. Also, starting with it isn't an argument. People don't like starting with Shaymin EX but that doesn't affect its usage. The balance here is the Vileplume player now has the option to do what her or she wants to do by discarding its tool via trainer, assuming this is a matchup that will happen.
 
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