P!P/Rules Should Garbodor be Banned?
- Thread starter bbninjas
- Start date
That Beedrill was brought up in the thread earlier, and basically the problem is that it's an attack. Unless people are running really light on Tools due to there being no Trainer-based discard for them atm (I haven't started playing on TCGO yet so I don't really know), it's pretty reasonable to expect that the opponent will be able to easily attach a new tool in their next turn, denying you your abilities once again. Since you're also doing no damage and risking a low-HP EX to do this, it really doesn't seem like a reasonable trade-off when the opponent is usually slightly inconvenienced at best.
Actually, those three cards are bad for other reasons, namely speed. Magnezone and Golduck BREAK are far to slow to keep up with the format, even if the PRC-on format is slower. Clawitzer suffers from the fact that most mega evolution decks don't need it or have better partners. Yes, these cards get better with Garbodor gone, but not noticeably better because they still suffer under the format being too fast, them not having a noticeable or worthwhile niche, or them being unnecessary in the decks that they would fit in. This unfortunately rings true for a lot of combinations and fun non-meta cards, but if you wanted them to be good they'd sadly have to be the only deck more often than not.
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Speed is not really a problem for them to be honest. Them being stage 2 Pokemon is what balances them. At the fastest, you get a turn 2 Magnezone or Golduck BREAK. Lightning Pokemon have good partners and great support and a tank deck with a turn 2 Golduck BREAK isn't losing anytime soon unless the deck gets OHKOs. Energy Trans decks have been having a hard time, like was said earlier but they are still good but I don't see how Magnezone doesn't get noticeably better with Supporters that can let Pikachu EX 200 damage a turn or make Raikou into something to fear. Its not that I want these cards to be good. We're not talking about Magnezone EX here but viable abilities.
How about a 160HP Mega that removes two tools for a single colourless?
It's almost like they planned this
We talked about this before and the issues is that its an EX Pokemon with 160 in a format where giving up 2 free prize cards isn't good and giving up an attack to do it when all your opponent has to do is put another tool on Garbodor. Its not viable.
I was only half-serious when posting that card 
But at the same time, there's another counter instantly written off for not being viable or good enough. It seems to me the only satisfactory counter for the anti-Garb side of the argument is going to be cards that aren't in format - the Xerosics/Megaphones/Tool Scrappers.
I for one, am enjoying the freedom to put spirit links on Megas on turn one and not have to worry about having them all wiped away by the next time I get a turn. Attaching a float stone somewhere and not needing to worry about it being discarded with an overpowered simple-to-play Megaphone. If a deck like a Golduck Break isn't viable because of Garbodor, the answer isn't to ban Garbodor. Do that and something like Greninja runs riot in the format and we're all sat here discussing whether that should be banned instead.
The answer is to build a better deck with the tools available, not to pine for the tools that aren't.
But at the same time, there's another counter instantly written off for not being viable or good enough. It seems to me the only satisfactory counter for the anti-Garb side of the argument is going to be cards that aren't in format - the Xerosics/Megaphones/Tool Scrappers.
I for one, am enjoying the freedom to put spirit links on Megas on turn one and not have to worry about having them all wiped away by the next time I get a turn. Attaching a float stone somewhere and not needing to worry about it being discarded with an overpowered simple-to-play Megaphone. If a deck like a Golduck Break isn't viable because of Garbodor, the answer isn't to ban Garbodor. Do that and something like Greninja runs riot in the format and we're all sat here discussing whether that should be banned instead.
The answer is to build a better deck with the tools available, not to pine for the tools that aren't.
The counter to Garbodor is to build a deck that doesn't rely on abilities. Something like Rainbow Road, for example, only has Shaymin with abilities, and if you can use your Shaymin early to set up, by the time they get Garbodor up and running, it won't matter.
I was only half-serious when posting that card
But at the same time, there's another counter instantly written off for not being viable or good enough. It seems to me the only satisfactory counter for the anti-Garb side of the argument is going to be cards that aren't in format - the Xerosics/Megaphones/Tool Scrappers.
I for one, am enjoying the freedom to put spirit links on Megas on turn one and not have to worry about having them all wiped away by the next time I get a turn. Attaching a float stone somewhere and not needing to worry about it being discarded with an overpowered simple-to-play Megaphone. If a deck like a Golduck Break isn't viable because of Garbodor, the answer isn't to ban Garbodor. Do that and something like Greninja runs riot in the format and we're all sat here discussing whether that should be banned instead.
The answer is to build a better deck with the tools available, not to pine for the tools that aren't.
For things like this, I wouldn't post jokes because people are serious about this. Beedrill isn't a viable counter for reasons. It gives up 2 prizes and is easy to KO and is an attack that could be made pointless because the tool can be attached again and all you did was give up 2 prize cards. The counter should be as effective as the card its countering. Since the tool can be attached and goes into effect immediately to turn off abilities then the counter should be able to remove it immediately.
Xerosic was a good design card in concept but Tool Scrapper and Megaphone are of bad design. Tool Scrapper and Startling Megaphone of perfect examples of what I said earlier. Because tool removal was so prominent, the lesser used tools weren't used. EXP Share is a great card but it means nothing because it was discarded before it was useful so they made tools more powerful to tempt the waters, and we got things like Muscle Band and Fighting Fury Belt. This isn't the fault of cards like EXP Share for being useful, its the fault of target everything effects. Discarding ALL Pokemon Tool cards is a harsh effect. It punishes any creative deck building for the sake of "competitive". That Golduck BREAK deck you have with EXP Share to safeguard against OHKO decks is now less powerful against that matchup. We as players should dislike all or nothing effects especially if all they are trying to do is hit one or two cards. Garbodor is the same way. If all you're trying to do is counter the Greninja BREAK card you're printing, then either give its ability a real cost or just don't print it. By printing Garbodor again, you are punishing every other Pokemon and deck design just so you can nerf Greninja. Thats not good design.
This is why I said we need an all purpose discard 1 trainer card in play item card. A one-for-one since these cards dont punish anything hard and is just a utility card. Your example with mega evolution is a interesting one though. I'll say this now. Your <Pokemon> Spirit Link isn't a right of passage. Its a luxury. If you want to overextend to get that one or two extra cards with your Shaymin EX, then you risk the change of losing that Spirit Link. The rule is set in stone. If you Mega Evolve, your turn ends. You accept this when you play decks using mega evolved Pokemon. The spirit links just offer a way to continue play during your turn. This is the same thing with Rare Candy. its not a right but a luxury. You can still evolve your Pokemon with out the need for any of these items. If tool removal exist, you simply just attach it when you need it or risk losing it. There is nothing wrong with risk reward in the game. We do it all the time and sometimes it pays off. We don't want back Tool Scrapper or Megaphone back. These cards are too harsh but something more on the line of Xerosic - a one-for-one.
Garbodor shouldn't exist either but why not a Pokemon with an ability that hen its put into play, you can negate the ability of another Pokemon. A one-for-one effect. You can suppress one Magnezone, Golduck Break or any other Pokemon with abilities but if another comes into play, you have to do it again, which takes more bench space each time you do it. Its balanced because you can build your deck with this card in mind. This is where deck building skills come in play. Even when Garbodor was a thing before, we had tool removal so it wasn't even an argument because there was counter play. Its not a matter of "Just build better decks", its a matter of making sure the tool available are useful for the players. Garbodor has a built in effect to prevent it from being broken but when those counters don't exist in a viable way for the players, then it creates imbalance since this is just saying "you cant play these decks" and thats not a way to approach this. Here, I made a list of Pokemon with abilities that range from ok to viable;
Absol
Alakazam EX
Altaria Zebstrika messes this up)
Ariados
Carbink (Both)
Chandelure
Clawitzer
Delphox BREAK
Dragonite (Max Wind)
Empoleon Breaksomething
Florges
Foongus
Froslass
Gallade
Giratina EX
Golbat
Golduck BREAK
Greninja BREAK
Haunter
Hawlucha
Hoopa EX
Hydreigon EX
Hypno
Vaporeon, Jolteon, Flareon
Klefki (Wonder Lock)
Lugia (Pressure)
Magearna EX
Magnemite
Magnezone
Malamar XY58
Manaphy EX
Adaptive Evolution
Mew
Mismagius
Mr.Mime
Ninetales
Octillery
Regirock EX
Reshiram
Sceptile
Servine
Shaymin EX (Setup)
Slowking
Swampert
Togekiss
Toxicroak
Tyranitar
Unknown
Vileplume
Volcanion EX
Weavile
Wobbuffet
Yanmega
Yveltal
Zebstrika
Zoroark
The thing to remember is if you can't play what you want and only playing something because you have to, it creates centralization, which is something you want to avoid in competitive gaming.
But you have to play something with likely bad matchups in mind, and if MewTwo Garbodor and DGG is going to be prevalent, you have to think about how you are going to play against it. That is part of any TCG.
Thats just a give. You can't do anything about the format you're dealt but that doesn't mean we can't talk about it.
Nothing wrong with a bit of levity to lighten up the thread, it's only a game relax.
I do think we're talking in circles though. I've said my piece, I do leave the thread feeling like it's been skimmed/ignored/twisted, but that's no skin off my nose. My opinion (and it is only that - an opinion) is that while somewhat overpowered, Garb is far from broken, and enough counters do exist. So to answer the OP's question - absolutely no call for a ban. I'd even go further to say if it weren't there, it would create a bigger imbalance than it being there. A quick straw poll through the thread and it seems to be about 80% posters saying it doesn't need a ban to 20% ban, so I'm happy to side with the majority on this one. Not like it's gonna get banned by the powers that be, even if we had 100% here asking for it so no need to get pent up about it.
A poll attached to the thread would interest me, but any discussion of the issue is just going in circles. One side says it's fine because x, and the other says it's not because y, and never the twain shall meet. A little dissatisfying, but that's just how it goes.
I do think we're talking in circles though. I've said my piece, I do leave the thread feeling like it's been skimmed/ignored/twisted, but that's no skin off my nose. My opinion (and it is only that - an opinion) is that while somewhat overpowered, Garb is far from broken, and enough counters do exist. So to answer the OP's question - absolutely no call for a ban. I'd even go further to say if it weren't there, it would create a bigger imbalance than it being there. A quick straw poll through the thread and it seems to be about 80% posters saying it doesn't need a ban to 20% ban, so I'm happy to side with the majority on this one. Not like it's gonna get banned by the powers that be, even if we had 100% here asking for it so no need to get pent up about it.
A poll attached to the thread would interest me, but any discussion of the issue is just going in circles. One side says it's fine because x, and the other says it's not because y, and never the twain shall meet. A little dissatisfying, but that's just how it goes.