P!P/Rules Should Garbodor be Banned?

[Asclepius24]

Reminders for everyone:

1. A deck isn't "toxic" because it counters your favorite deck.
2. There's nothing wrong with employing difficult-to-beat strategies in an effort to win games.
3. Keep discussion on-topic and civil.

This thread has already veered off course once, and I don't want to have to lock it and start handing out warnings.

 

[Otaku]

...and greninja can forget about being in format unless you wanna replace bursting ballons for a freaking muscle band.

Huh?

Muscle Band is no longer Standard legal; it rotated out with the rest of the XY expansion on September 1st. I mean plenty of cards from that set survived via reprint, but Muscle Band isn't one of them. So if you can use Muscle Band, you can use Startling Megaphone. Seriously though, if I missed a reprint (as did the various sites I referenced), let me know. ^^'

When people see we need to "wait and see"... well, I guess I shouldn't speak for others. Okay, so when I personally say we need to "wait and see", that means waiting for the results of the next P!P tournament of significance. Sometimes it even takes two or three (especially with the earlier, smaller events in the Championship series). I know some players are amazing and when they playtest with their group they can predict the competitive metagame pretty accurately. I am doubting most of those players are weighing in here.

A major factor will be the decks that don't use Abilities but also prefer to dedicate space to something other than Garbodor. Basically, we get the usual rock-paper-scissors relationship: Ability Heavy Decks > Ability Light Decks < Anti-Ability Decks < Ability Heavy Decks. Greninja BREAK was something of an oddball as it was an Anti-Ability deck which was itself pretty heavily reliant upon Abilities.

 

[PineDog]

While playing through the standard format, on TCGO and some matches, Garbodor actually isn't as bad as I initially thought, (even though I still defended it.) Even my deck, M Rayquaza-EX which relies heavily on abilities can go even against decks that run Garbodor, as you get at least one turn with abilities, which can be all you need. Often you just have to make the most of that one turn. Plus after that you just need a way to deal damage how you usually do, I'll use M Rayquaza-EX as an example simply because I know it the best of decks in standard format. While Hoopa-EX and Shaymin-EX help you dig through your deck quickly and set up your Sky Field as quickly as possible, losing abilities doesn't affect Emerald Break, which the entire deck is about. Also, M Gardevoir-EX (STS) can go even with Garbodor decks, as once you use Hoopa-EX or Shaymin-EX, or Hawlucha and Rattata, (still salty that it can't efficiently counter Garbodor, but beggars can't be choosers,) and then Despair Ray them away once your opponent gets Garbodor out, and then get them back in your deck once you get rid of Garbodor, if you do, Garbodor doesn't affect your damage output in Despair Ray. Ultimately, at the end of the day, Garbodor is just going to force us to be more creative with our decklists, and not run cards just because they have a good ability, and create a slower formaat. Maybe it will even drive down the price of the elusive Shaymin-EX, which could allow newer players to play the game more competitively, breaking down the imaginary wall that separates new players and old players (Yungoos be in the corner like, wall?), Garbodor can do some good in the format. But not much. I still stand by my opinion Garbodor should not be banned.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

One thing I want to say is the meta could develop to employ turn 1 Garbodor. While I think it should be banned, all it really takes is a reprint of Tool Scrapper or a weaker version of it. Something where you discard one trainer in play and draw a card. While I don't like Garbodor, I do think it has a right to exist but just not without a way to turn it off.

Lest be honest here, Greninja BREAK is a broken card and pairing that with a Greninja that can turn off abilities is just as toxic as Garbodor. Greninja BREAK shouldn't have been made and when I first saw the card, I knew it would cause a problem because it beats EX Pokemon easily, which ruins the prize trade (this isn't Greninja's fault) and it punishes evolving basics and support mons too hard.

The reason Hoopa EX and Shaymin EX are still good is because you use them early in the game and after that, it doesn't matter if Garb is up or not. My problem is players like me like to use abilities. I can't use Golduck BREAK, which means I can't play the decks I like and this is a problem because Garbodor is preventing me from doing this. Whether or not you want to admit it, Garbodor removes many play styles and forces players to just play aggro, which turns the games into who goes first and has the better opening hand OR the mega Ray players going second and hitting you for a turn one 240 damage, which places us back in the same boat, except we have to deal with a 220 HP Pokemon and that do up to 240 damage. At least you could easily KO an Night March Pokemon but imagine if Joltik had 220 HP.

The point of having ability based setup is it mitigates how the prize trade works. It doesn't matter who goes first or second since Energy Trans abilities with Max Potion can ruin a KO being setup and this is just as viable a strategy as hitting as hard and fast as you can or control. A Garbodor that is left as is in format will just further cement this in, what causes unhealthy cards to be designed to combat this and you best believe before Sun and Moon drops, they wouldn't let such a card ruin their new GX Pokemon.

 

[superdan51]

One thing I want to say is the meta could develop to employ turn 1 Garbodor. While I think it should be banned, all it really takes is a reprint of Tool Scrapper or a weaker version of it. Something where you discard one trainer in play and draw a card. While I don't like Garbodor, I do think it has a right to exist but just not without a way to turn it off.

Lest be honest here, Greninja BREAK is a broken card and pairing that with a Greninja that can turn off abilities is just as toxic as Garbodor. Greninja BREAK shouldn't have been made and when I first saw the card, I knew it would cause a problem because it beats EX Pokemon easily, which ruins the prize trade (this isn't Greninja's fault) and it punishes evolving basics and support mons too hard.

The reason Hoopa EX and Shaymin EX are still good is because you use them early in the game and after that, it doesn't matter if Garb is up or not. My problem is players like me like to use abilities. I can't use Golduck BREAK, which means I can't play the decks I like and this is a problem because Garbodor is preventing me from doing this. Whether or not you want to admit it, Garbodor removes many play styles and forces players to just play aggro, which turns the games into who goes first and has the better opening hand OR the mega Ray players going second and hitting you for a turn one 240 damage, which places up back in the same boat, except we not have to deal with a 220 HP Pokemon and that do up to 240 damage. At least you could easily KO an Night March Pokemon but imagine if Joltik had 220 HP.

The point of having ability based setup is it mitigates how the prize trade works. It doesn't matter who goes first or second since Energy Trans abilities with Max Potion can ruin a KO being setup and this is just as viable a strategy as hitting as hard and fast as you can or control. A Garbodor that is left as is in format will just further cement this in, what causes unhealthy cards to be designed to combat this and you best believe before Sun and Moon drops, they would let such a card ruin their new GX Pokemon.

Garbador had no place being reprinted in Break point, but that was solely to counter greninja break which came in the same set. Im on the same boat as you that I like to play decks with cool abilities to make interesting mixes. With garb in the format and no item card to remove tools, it completely demotivated me from playing IRL, ive even slowed down on TCGO. Why make new cards with new abilities if theres no way to use them in 70% of the matches ill play. This toxic environment just shows that the way that cards are released isnt very good, and exceptions such as tool scraper or megaphone should be reprinted as promos, and released in blister packs to allow for all of the old ones to be used but we know TCPi would never do that ...

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

Garbador had no place being reprinted in Break point, but that was solely to counter greninja break which came in the same set. Im on the same boat as you that I like to play decks with cool abilities to make interesting mixes. With garb in the format and no item card to remove tools, it completely demotivated me from playing IRL, ive even slowed down on TCGO. Why make new cards with new abilities if theres no way to use them in 70% of the matches ill play. This toxic environment just shows that the way that cards are released isnt very good, and exceptions such as tool scraper or megaphone should be reprinted as promos, and released in blister packs to allow for all of the old ones to be used but we know TCPi would never do that ...

While I agree with that, Tool Scrapper and Megaphone shouldn't be reprinted either because they are both too harsh on tool cards for no reason. Instead, a card should be printed like Yugioh's Mystical Space Typhoon. A all purpose item card that can discard any trainer card in play and since this is Pokemon, put a draw one card effect on it as well.

 

[Serperior]

Lol Garbodor should definitely not be banned. This card is nowhere near as game-breaking as cards such as Lysandre's Trump Card or Battle Compressor and even the latter made it out alive before being rotated out. Lysandre's Trump specifically encouraged "reckless play" as J-Wittz said in one stream (and those words have stuck with me ever since) because you could play your entire deck with Acro Bike and Ultra Ball and Shaymin and whatever and simply recycle everything back into the deck. You didn't have to make a decision on what resources to keep or discard because you had this Supporter to undo those (what would have been) mistakes. Battle Compressor made Night March very powerful...but you saw what happened at Worlds lol. With Garbodor, we're dealing with a Pokémon this time around, not a Trainer. First, you have to evolve the thing, and you need a Tool. Guys. We have Lysandre. If you're this concerned with Garby spoiling your plans, frickin Lysandre. There's a lot more variability coming from the player that has to get Garbodor out because there's consistency issues. You don't always get the Garbodor on the next turn you play the Trubbish. When compared to the aforementioned Trainers, you have Lysandre's Trump or the Battle Compressor and boom. There's no debating whether you're gonna get the benefits of the card off or not - the card is in your hand and there is no one-turn-freeze. It's a Trainer. That's why those were up for discussion. I dunno what this thread is.

Is Garbodor powerful? Yes. Is it broken? No.

Be a good player and adapt to the meta.

 

[Starsoulklr]

Honestly all I want is an Item that discards a single Tool Card. Doesn't need to discard more then one and Attack Based Item Lock in standard right now is limited to a Hoothoot that deals no damage. This whole issue stems from them not printing an anti-tool card alongside Garbotoxin like they did before. At least there was the hindsight to have an answer in the same set with Dragon's Exalted when they first made it. While I hate Garbotoxin I don't think it needs to be banned they just need a trainer card that discards a tool and I'm OKish with it.

@Serperior
Let me explain the flaw of KOing Garbodor to deal with it: you are putting your effort to KOing what is annoying you and not what is going to start rampaging damage all over your Pokemon. With Wally it is entirely possible to Turn One Garbotoxin and there is a Pokemon in Steam Siege called Kelfki that can turn itself into a tool card for a turn meaning you can also search for your enabler with Pokemon Tutors. Also yes one Klefki can convert itself into a Tool Card as it's a pokemon on the bench and once it becomes a Tool it's no longer an ability on Klefki.

The issue isn't Garbotoxin it's the lack of being able to deal with Tools as there's still powerful tools such as Float Stone, Fighting Fury Belt, and Burst Balloon. Garbotoxin just highlights the issue even more so. At least with Shadow Stitch for Greninja we now have the Rangers as a possible answer.

Is it really too much to ask for a Trainer that discards one Tool Card?

:Grammar edit I saw 'a' in front of a vowel instead of 'an':

 

[GreatEclipse]

Hex Maniac is a far more toxic card than Garbodor, which takes a decent slice of deck space, 2-3 turns to get going, and easily dragged up and killed. Hex Maniac may only last one turn, but it's instant, only needs 1-2 deck slots because everyone already runs 4 VS Seeeker, cannot be "counter spelled" when the opponent plays it on their turn, or turned off when in effect. The only thing going for it is that it also keeps in check some things that could be even more broken in its absence.

 

[Serperior]

@Starsoulklr - I'm sure we'll get a Tool removal type card soon. Ride it out and play the game we have right now. Complaining about it won't help. Are you not taking advantage of these Tools we have? It's a part of the game as of right now so the most we can do is just...play it as it is. The Klefki idea is nifty, not gonna lie. That's pretty cool.

@GreatEclipse - Hex Maniac isn't toxic. You usually run 1 and if you're spending all of your VS Seeker plays on Hex then...you're probably playing against Greninja or your hands are godly every turn. Hex requires timing when played correctly, and before then you're more than likely playing Sycamore to get the draws you need to actually get set up.

 

[Starsoulklr]

@Serperior I pray so: once there is a tool removal card reveled all of this talk about Garbotoxin being overpowered will be over. Once there is an answer to tools it will be a brighter future. Hopefully at least Sun and Moon because Evolutions looks to be bleak for tool answers.

Part of my point about Tools is that there is more reasons to have a discard card to deal with them besides 'Garbotoxin is ruining everything'. The rant was about trying to bring to light the real issue with Garbotoxin in the current meta. It wasn't banned during it's initial run and unlike Giant Fan Shiftry which newer cards made just bonkers it's not worth it now even with it's improvements as you at least still actually get to play a game.

I just wish the designers had the foresight like they did with it before. A little triangle of Safeguard/Garbotoxin/Tool Scrapper showed a set adapting to the status quote giving possible answer to many players.

 

[GreatEclipse]

Hex Maniac isn't toxic. You usually run 1 and if you're spending all of your VS Seeker plays on Hex then...you're probably playing against Greninja or your hands are godly every turn. Hex requires timing when played correctly, and before then you're more than likely playing Sycamore to get the draws you need to actually get set up.

Hex Maniac certainly does take skill to use truly effectively, but the important thing is that when it does hit the field, no way exists to turn it off or keep it from taking effect. It has a far bigger impact on the game than Garbodor, as witnessed by the fact that every deck runs it (and increasingly more than one copy), and it does a lot more to hurt highly ability-reliant decks. Like I said though, this also means some Pokemon that may otherwise be OP can be held more in check.

 

[Otaku]

While I agree with that, Tool Scrapper and Megaphone shouldn't be reprinted either because they are both too harsh on tool cards for no reason. Instead, a card should be printed like Yugioh's Mystical Space Typhoon. A all purpose item card that can discard any trainer card in play and since this is Pokemon, put a draw one card effect on it as well.

Had to stop and think about this... Mystical Space Typhoon was toxic to Yu-Gi-Oh because it was a Quick Play Spell. If you don't know Yu-Gi-Oh, it has two cards that are kind of like Trainer cards, each with several sub-classes, and none of them are like Supporters with a built in cost. Mystical Space Typhoon simply destroyed one such card, but it also had no cost and the way Yu-Gi-Oh worked you could even play it in response to another card being activated (from hand on your turn, or on your opponent's turn if you set it on the field first). So imagine going to attack with something that had Protection Cube to avoid self-KOing, then having your opponent activate a card to destroy Protection Cube so that while you did get off your attack, your Active KO'd itself.

If is quite easy to make these kind of effects too good. You have to consider the effort that goes into using the card being discarded, and you have to consider the impact it will have on the game for such cards to be able to be discarded at all. A Supporter that can discard any one Trainer card in play is probably about right; Xerosic that can hit a Stadium instead of a Special Energy, with cards like Robo Substitute as a bonus. Or an Item which can hit one Pokémon Tool and then draw a card; Paint Roller with a slightly more abundant target.

Oh and @Serperior : Complaining does no good. Proper discussion helps players better understand the game as it is, and also can help them realize what the game should be. While unlikely, if enough players actually see how the game could be better and are able to explain why to others, then this can be enough for TPC to change how they design the game. I can't believe they do not know how to make the game "better" (how I'd define it); instead I think they realize most people wouldn't recognize it as better and it would take a lot more effort and investment on their part. Why jeopardize profits when there is no demand? Just release the "safe" product instead.

 

[Serperior]

@Starsoulklr - I will say that I didn't like how Garb was being reprinted because I think it's more of the same mechanics we've had for a while and isn't too creative on TPCi's behalf (like at least give the Ability to a different Pokémon ya know). I'm sure we'll get something soon. We'll be ok.

@Otaku - MST is not toxic lol. I know this isn't the place for YGO discussion but it's a 1-for-1 haha. There's so much worse than MST. But agreed on the bit about complaining and discussing. Nice.

 

[Ms Hugo]

What does Garbodor beat atm besides rogue decks, Greninja and Volcanion? If I know people are playing Garbodor, I'll just slam down all my Shaymins and Hoopas while I still have the chance. Stuff like Magnezone dies to loads of decks that aren't Garbodor.

It looks like it's going to be a Mega format for the first few months, and I don't know any Mega decks that are just destroyed by Garb after the first wave of Shaymins and Hoopas. You want to play something weird like Ampharos/Clawitzer? Fine, but that dies to far more stuff than Garbodor.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

Had to stop and think about this... Mystical Space Typhoon was toxic to Yu-Gi-Oh because it was a Quick Play Spell. If you don't know Yu-Gi-Oh, it has two cards that are kind of like Trainer cards, each with several sub-classes, and none of them are like Supporters with a built in cost. Mystical Space Typhoon simply destroyed one such card, but it also had no cost and the way Yu-Gi-Oh worked you could even play it in response to another card being activated (from hand on your turn, or on your opponent's turn if you set it on the field first). So imagine going to attack with something that had Protection Cube to avoid self-KOing, then having your opponent activate a card to destroy Protection Cube so that while you did get off your attack, your Active KO'd itself.

If is quite easy to make these kind of effects too good. You have to consider the effort that goes into using the card being discarded, and you have to consider the impact it will have on the game for such cards to be able to be discarded at all. A Supporter that can discard any one Trainer card in play is probably about right; Xerosic that can hit a Stadium instead of a Special Energy, with cards like Robo Substitute as a bonus. Or an Item which can hit one Pokémon Tool and then draw a card; Paint Roller with a slightly more abundant target.

The card shouldn't be playable during your opponents turn. It would just be a general all purpose discard 1 trainer card in play. The design of the card will also be future proof and keep some unbalanced cards from running wild. 1 for 1 cards should exist and not the 1 for everything they like printing. I don't think such a card should be a supporter. Its the going problem right now with Garbodor. You have to play a supporter to deal with it while not dealing with the actual threat.

What does Garbodor beat atm besides rogue decks, Greninja and Volcanion? If I know people are playing Garbodor, I'll just slam down all my Shaymins and Hoopas while I still have the chance. Stuff like Magnezone dies to loads of decks that aren't Garbodor.

It looks like it's going to be a Mega format for the first few months, and I don't know any Mega decks that are just destroyed by Garb after the first wave of Shaymins and Hoopas. You want to play something weird like Ampharos/Clawitzer? Fine, but that dies to far more stuff than Garbodor.

What exactly do you mean by it dies to other decks? This really feels like a cop-out here to justify the existence of Garbodor. Shaymin and Hoopa aren't the only cards in the format with abilities. mega Ray dies to Magnezone and a lot of other decks.

 

[bbninjas]

What exactly do you mean by it dies to other decks? This really feels like a cop-out here to justify the existence of Garbodor. Shaymin and Hoopa aren't the only cards in the format with abilities. mega Ray dies to Magnezone and a lot of other decks.

They mean "has poor match-ups against" or "can't win against". I agree with Ms Hugo here that Garbodor is not good against a large amount of the meta (which is adapted to the Garbodor) and hence why I don't really considered it game-breakingly (or ban-worthily) powerful. It's not a cop-out at all. xD

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

What does Garbodor beat atm besides rogue decks, Greninja and Volcanion? If I know people are playing Garbodor, I'll just slam down all my Shaymins and Hoopas while I still have the chance. Stuff like Magnezone dies to loads of decks that aren't Garbodor.

It looks like it's going to be a Mega format for the first few months, and I don't know any Mega decks that are just destroyed by Garb after the first wave of Shaymins and Hoopas. You want to play something weird like Ampharos/Clawitzer? Fine, but that dies to far more stuff than Garbodor.

They mean "has poor match-ups against" or "can't win against". I agree with Ms Hugo here that Garbodor is not good against a large amount of the meta (which is adapted to the Garbodor) and hence why I don't really considered it game-breakingly (or ban-worthily) powerful. It's not a cop-out at all. xD

What I mean is it sounds to me like "the card is bad anyway so what does it matter" and this isn't ever the right way to approach whether or not something is bad or good for something. I would consider Garbodor as is as a game breaking card because of its effect on the meta. Octillery for example is a good card and is a decent substitute for players who doesn't have Shaymin EX. This means that player would have a card in their deck they can't use against Garbodor. Other abilities that rely on setup all throughout the game also become useless. This is something that ruins the game balance. Printing a item that discards tools fixes this.. They can ban it too, it doesn't really matter much to me.

I consider the concept of "its a bad card anyway so it doesn't matter" a cop-out and a pretty dishonest way to debate because it doesn't offer anything constructive to the debate. Why is Magnezone bad? Why is Clawitzer bad? Why is Golduck Break bad? Why are any non Shaymin EX/Hoopa EX cards bad?

 

[Otaku]

@Otaku - MST is not toxic lol. I know this isn't the place for YGO discussion but it's a 1-for-1 haha. There's so much worse than MST. But agreed on the bit about complaining and discussing. Nice.

@bbninjas Just asking you to let me know if I fail to suitably tie this into the current discussion. I believe I will, or else I would not even try!

Yu-Gi-Oh is what taught me that broken cards are like a mountain range. Not only do they come in different shapes and sizes, but if you're at the foot of one, it can hide others whether they are larger (more unbalancing) or smaller (less unbalancing).

Unfortunately in Yu-Gi-Oh, Mystical Space Typhoon was one of the smaller mountains; I mean compared to cards like Giant Trunade, Harpie's Feather Duster, and Heavy Storm it seemed pedestrian. However as you stated, it was a one for one... but it wasn't just destroying other Quick Play Spells, was it? That would be a true one-for-one; the exact same card exchanged for another card. Instead Mystical Space Typhoon could hit anything in the Field Spell or S/T Zones. Been a long time wince I really played Yu-Gi-Oh, but the only reason I can't blame how difficult it was for Continuous Spells, Equip Spells, Field Spells, Permanent Traps, etc. to prove worthwhile on Mystical Space Typhoon was because of examples like those three mass Spell removal effects. They were larger mountains, and hid the smaller one. Sometimes a smaller one can hide a bigger one, simply because everyone knows how broken Card A is, but Card B requires a little more effort.

Raw card count is also only a rudimentary measure of winning, much like Life Points or Prize cards are for winning: until your LP hits zero or your opponent takes his or her last Prize, your opponent could actually be winning because of what his or her deck, discard pile, field, and/or hand look like compared to yours. As you do know Yu-Gi-Oh, unless the modern game is so radically different, Quick-Play Spells were basically the best Spells (apart from specific counter effects) because their increased Spell Speed allowed them to be more versatile. This could even lead to it being more than a 1-for-1, though that usually required some fortune and/or a misplay by your opponent. I am not saying card count doesn't matter, just that it is just your first guide and you need to then see if it overlooks anything.

Perhaps a good comparison is Energy Removal and Super Energy Removal, originally from the Base Set. Both were "normal Trainers" (the only kind at the time), but retroactively have been classified as "Items". Energy Removal simply discards one Energy card from an opponent's Pokémon: a one-for-one as you trade one Item card for one Energy card. Super Energy Removal is a 2-for-2 as it requires you discard an Energy card from one of your own Pokémon, and then you may select one opposing Pokémon and discard up to two Energy cards from it. However you may play as many Item cards as you are able in a turn, and the only costs are those built into the card. You may only attach a single Energy card from hand each turn without another card effect. Base Set Electrode was worthless just because these to Item cards were around; it was foolhardy to run a Stage 1 line, give up a Prize to use the Pokémon Power, for what would most likely be only one turn of extra Energy, as next turn your opponent would surely use Energy Removal or Super Energy Removal to discard it.

Garbodor isn't a card we can easily qualify in terms of raw card count. If an Ability is vital enough to a deck, whether you're only negating one card or 12, its worth it. On the other hand you might negate the Abilities of several cards but the deck doesn't rely on them heavily, and so you're just wasting space in that matchup. Which gets me to this hypothetical card @crystal_pidgeot and I have been discussing and... I think that discussion might be too far off topic. Still, at least I can explain how yeah, whether Garbodor is broken or not, raw card advantage can be misleading.

 

[mebizzle]

@bbninjas Just asking you to let me know if I fail to suitably tie this into the current discussion. I believe I will, or else I would not even try!

Yu-Gi-Oh is what taught me that broken cards are like a mountain range. Not only do they come in different shapes and sizes, but if you're at the foot of one, it can hide others whether they are larger (more unbalancing) or smaller (less unbalancing).

Unfortunately in Yu-Gi-Oh, Mystical Space Typhoon was one of the smaller mountains; I mean compared to cards like Giant Trunade, Harpie's Feather Duster, and Heavy Storm it seemed pedestrian. However as you stated, it was a one for one... but it wasn't just destroying other Quick Play Spells, was it? That would be a true one-for-one; the exact same card exchanged for another card. Instead Mystical Space Typhoon could hit anything in the Field Spell or S/T Zones. Been a long time wince I really played Yu-Gi-Oh, but the only reason I can't blame how difficult it was for Continuous Spells, Equip Spells, Field Spells, Permanent Traps, etc. to prove worthwhile on Mystical Space Typhoon was because of examples like those three mass Spell removal effects. They were larger mountains, and hid the smaller one. Sometimes a smaller one can hide a bigger one, simply because everyone knows how broken Card A is, but Card B requires a little more effort.

Raw card count is also only a rudimentary measure of winning, much like Life Points or Prize cards are for winning: until your LP hits zero or your opponent takes his or her last Prize, your opponent could actually be winning because of what his or her deck, discard pile, field, and/or hand look like compared to yours. As you do know Yu-Gi-Oh, unless the modern game is so radically different, Quick-Play Spells were basically the best Spells (apart from specific counter effects) because their increased Spell Speed allowed them to be more versatile. This could even lead to it being more than a 1-for-1, though that usually required some fortune and/or a misplay by your opponent. I am not saying card count doesn't matter, just that it is just your first guide and you need to then see if it overlooks anything.

Perhaps a good comparison is Energy Removal and Super Energy Removal, originally from the Base Set. Both were "normal Trainers" (the only kind at the time), but retroactively have been classified as "Items". Energy Removal simply discards one Energy card from an opponent's Pokémon: a one-for-one as you trade one Item card for one Energy card. Super Energy Removal is a 2-for-2 as it requires you discard an Energy card from one of your own Pokémon, and then you may select one opposing Pokémon and discard up to two Energy cards from it. However you may play as many Item cards as you are able in a turn, and the only costs are those built into the card. You may only attach a single Energy card from hand each turn without another card effect. Base Set Electrode was worthless just because these to Item cards were around; it was foolhardy to run a Stage 1 line, give up a Prize to use the Pokémon Power, for what would most likely be only one turn of extra Energy, as next turn your opponent would surely use Energy Removal or Super Energy Removal to discard it.

Garbodor isn't a card we can easily qualify in terms of raw card count. If an Ability is vital enough to a deck, whether you're only negating one card or 12, its worth it. On the other hand you might negate the Abilities of several cards but the deck doesn't rely on them heavily, and so you're just wasting space in that matchup. Which gets me to this hypothetical card @crystal_pidgeot and I have been discussing and... I think that discussion might be too far off topic. Still, at least I can explain how yeah, whether Garbodor is broken or not, raw card advantage can be misleading.

Raw card advantage is typically the most important metric in analyzing yugioh because of how powerful individual cards can be and how much they can swing things in a new direction. Also, the modern game is vastly different from the game when MST was new. It also never negated, so even though it was a quick play you could not activate it in response to anything to negate it (continuous cards are an exception but they are not negated by it, it destroys them and they do not get an effect because they must remain on the field.)

That being said, it wouldn't be a terrible idea to try and introduce some sort of player interaction into Pokémon, specifically for tools and Stadiums. Tool scrapper and Megaphone were very harsh to tools so something that could counter garb but be useful elsewhere might be neat.