P!P/Rules Should Garbodor be Banned?

In my opinion, with a lack of tool-discarding trainers in 2016-17 standard, a ban on Garb for standard only could've been reasonable(the only non-rogue decks currently in format that do not use abilities other than shaymin-EX-es and/or do not fail to perform as well w/o abilities when compared to how well they perform w/ abilities are:

1. fighting decks(with its core-to-survival cards named Korrina and focus sash, due to leave standard in september, plus the fact that its key cards are weak to Grass decks and item lock, so Vespiplume wouldn't be a good matchup for Primal Groudon, carbink break, garchomp, and zygarde decks),

2. Darkrai/Giratina(can be countered by Enhanced Hammers and Flare Grunts), and...

3. Night March decks(can be countered by Giratina, Fighting decks w/ sash, among other counters that either cause it to not be able to attach DCE(Giratina, Barbaracle FCO, etc.) or blunt its damage and/or force it to not draw as many prizes to give it a chance of decking out(baby Yveltal, Bats, among other examples of non-EX decks))...

...if not for the upcoming emergence of a deck that was obscure before the announcement of steam siege's arrival into the TCG: Rainbow force Xerneas, complete w/ dual-types(a mechanic that did not exist in modern Pokemon TCG until steam siege, which is yet to make it stateside, but come early next month, it will be released to the stateside streets) from pokemon that do not revert to single-types if their ability is stopped in any way(the problem that theta stop golurk experiences in event of hex maniac usage): Two basic or one-turn evolution-capable pokemon drops to bench, one of them a dual-type like fire/water volcanion-EX or grass/fire volcarona(FoGP), and another pokemon of any other type, as then Garbodor can be Lysandred for the perfect Rainbow Force KO for a more reliable way to KO Garbodor in one turn, finally giving a setup that is not:

1. vespiquen, fighting, or darkrai/giratina, and...

2. does not have to rely on Shaymin-EX's ability at the minimum in order to function well against ability-reliant decks..

^ Of course, this is just my opinion...
 
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Latte1504 said:
Errrrr, rotates


Compressor rotates...
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As I said, currently-in-format... I know it will rotate after next month, but I was not talking about format after-rotation per-se, but rather, I was talking about the pre-rotation format and comparing it to what the format will look like post-rotation in respect to Garb... Besides, with fall regionals in expanded format, the rotation may be muted at this time, as such cards are ok to use in most leagues and tournaments at that time, or at least until cities come around after the holidays come and pass, after which the preferred format for tournaments held in cities and thereafter switches to standard...

^ Anyway, with the exception of the rainbow force xerneas part, of course, which could serve as a close-to-NM substitute in terms of power, as it's certainly not a true NM replacement, as the vespiplume and fighting decks are weakening in standard, both of which would be good omens for NM decks if not for compressor going out too, but NM is still are going out of standard by the rotation with them... To sum, if it wasn't for steam siege, in standard, the ability-dominated survivors will be shut out by Garb, and garb might be uber enough to not only ensure Darkrai/Giratina's standard dominance by a long mile(with no compressor to accelerate energy for fighting decks for weakness exploitation against darkrai-EX), but could also warrant a standard-only ban(unprecedented in P!P history, as bans that only apply to one format were not done and executed up to present day) w/ the lack of reliable tool removers, with the only things that can paling in quality, with the best of them being an EX in non-mega-but-mega-possible form... Without steam siege, you'll have to wonder: Shrine of Memories for Mega Beedrill-EX, anyone?
 
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Steam Siege hasn't even been released yet and we don't know what other cards are in the pipeline. It's way, way too early to start talking about a ban for Garbodor.
 
WastedSkyPirate said:
Steam Siege hasn't even been released yet and we don't know what other cards are in the pipeline. It's way, way too early to start talking about a ban for Garbodor.
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Yeah, I see your point, but at this time, such cards that we don't know about are select few spots in number in terms of that set, but outside of those, at least we do know the Japanese version's cards, as they were released in Japan last month, just not stateside yet. I know it's not released stateside yet, but if a card is released in japan in a main set, as long as it's not too unreasonable and counterproductive to the pokemon tcg's american branch's statements(for the set's English version), meaning if the card fits because of the nonoccurrence of either of the following scenarios in respect to said card:

1. set too big to fit press release statements regarding set,

2. reprint at wrong time, and...

3. Other reasons that make including said card unreasonable and counterproductive to the applicable TPCi division's set-related press statements regarding number of cards of certain types to be included...

...then chances are said card will make it stateside via its main set equivalent, but again, as it's not released stateside yet, my opinion might change if the actual cards in the pipeline are revealed to not match that of my opinion, meaning in this case, if there are no dual-types in English...

^ In respect to Garb, minus Steam Siege, I believe the ban can either be applied later in season, or not at all, assuming:

1. no tool-removal trainers are released in the first two sun/moon sets, and/or...

2. it succeeds in materializing in terms of tourney performances in 2016-17...

...so that if either one--or both-- of the said scenarios occurs, Nats wouldn't be a Garbodor sweep of those w/ abilities, as leaving a tool-dependent ability negator in a comp like that w/ no logical ways of countering it before the garb player could retreat Garb and KO a would-be Garb-knocker, with players overwhelmingly using it as part of their strategy, unknowingly creating a toxic environment in Nats: an unfair use-it-or-lose-it environment that shows a striking dominant card w/ too little competition whatsoever. If TPCi does not address that before that point in next season by printing a new tool-remover trainer, and Garb dominates the preceding tourneys by a mile, unaffected by the sun/moon sets slated to be released by that time, Garb could go wild in a way that could make me feel like Trump card all over again... If it wins the National championships of 2017, and/or garb is in all of the top 8, then in my opinion, that will prove its toxic-ness to standard, and will be worthy of a look for the consideration of a ban, if only a temporary one, and everyone would be left to hope that 2017-18 will show a tool-remover trainer that does not allow garb a chance to attach another tool to restart ability lock.

^ but yeah, technically way too early to actually apply such ban to Garb, although I still feel he is worthy of a ban...
 
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crystal_pidgeot said:
Fair enough but the last 2 Pokemon aren't even real option but the top 3 use your attack for the turn, which does nothing because Garbodor can just get another tool and they require at least 2 deck spaces if you want to avoid something being prized and Minccino requires 4 spaces if you want to avoid the same thing and I dont know anyone that wants to use a 160 HP EX to do what a trainer could do. Its still an option but people seem to like the word 'viable' a lot and these aren't viable options. If you have to spend your attack to deal with it (which they can just reattach next turn) and maybe give up a prize or 2, then what good are they? All you did was put your opponent closer to their win condition and you have nothing left to show for it because now you're ability locked again and down 1-2 prize cards.

These aren't counters, which is the problem. I should be able to discard the tools on my turn and play my strategy on my turn so I can play and not hope my opponent can't attach a tool again.
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I didn't say these were viable when I posted the list, nor before that post; I actually acknowledged in the post before that they weren't perfect. They work for some decks, but obviously not all. =P

Besides, there are many ways around Garbodor - you just need to be creative. If you've got something that can attack and KO, you can Lysandre Garbodor out*. If Garbodor slows your attacker down (which is the whole point of it, btw), tech in a Pokemon that can attack quicker, or use Trainers such as Max Elixir to power up faster. If your strategy of aggressiveness isn't working, maybe you need to remodel your deck to be slow and defensive. Garbodor is intended to disrupt decks, but you can retaliate with disruption like Crushing Hammer, Enhanced Hammer, Jirachi Promo, etc, so you can get ahead. And even if your deck relies on an Ability to activate your strategy, you should still have a backup plan - and not only for Garbodor! Smart opponents will utilise their Lysandre to KO the Pokemon centerpiece to your Ability (e.g. Golduck BREAK), so you will still run into the same consequences against other decks that don't even use Garbodor. Of course, there will inevitably be decks that just can't get around Garbodor reliably until a Xerosic or Megaphone is reprinted, and that's absolutely fine! That is exactly how formats work. I think that the population of decks that can't get around Garbodor and do not get crushed by other top contenders will be a significant minority.

*I'm unsure why using a turn for Lysandre is such a big deal, to be honest - it is the main method rogue and meta decks have used to fight against bench-sitters for years.
 
Even if Garbodor w/Garbotoxin causes difficulties post rotation, it is not the the cause of the problem but a symptom, which is why banning would do little good in the long run. It all comes back to the pacing of the game, which would be the fastest we've ever seen for this TCG save for the first turn rules. First turn rules that slow down the aggressiveness of the fastest decks but also make a slower set up using attacks a poor strategy. This pacing issue comes from a combination of cards, and so a simple ban (or even two or three) won't solve it. Plus Garbotoxin is so easily countered by a strategic reprint of (or tiniest bit of tinkering for a mostly-new) card to discard Tools.

This is why I tend to get so preachy about game and card design; bans and even intentional counters don't solve what I consider to be a long running design flaw in the game. The only thing to do is try to get enough others aware of the situation that perhaps a new approach to game design can supplant the current. That is also a long term strategy, as even if tomorrow morning it turned out everyone in charge of designing and running the Pokémon TCG agreed with me... we'd still have to wait out most of the current card pool before things could get better. ;)
 
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If Nightmarch and three different flavours of item lock weren't enough to force a ban Garb won't either. Garb isn't even that bad. Forgive my ignorance but I can't think of any decks that become completely unplayable with abilities turned off (ok Greninja but that deck is really strong in any other matchup). I agree with the metagame cycle theory post in the last page; if your deck completely folds to ability lock and Garb is everywhere in your meta, use another deck. There are/will be tons of decks in the new meta that will accommodate you.
I'd rather be ability locked than item locked
 
The one thing people seem to be missing is there won't be a way to turn Garbodor off in format. I fail to see how this isn't bad. Its very punishing to players who like to play skillful decks.

Expert_Occultist said:
If Nightmarch and three different flavours of item lock weren't enough to force a ban Garb won't either. Garb isn't even that bad. Forgive my ignorance but I can't think of any decks that become completely unplayable with abilities turned off (ok Greninja but that deck is really strong in any other matchup). I agree with the metagame cycle theory post in the last page; if your deck completely folds to ability lock and Garb is everywhere in your meta, use another deck. There are/will be tons of decks in the new meta that will accommodate you.
I'd rather be ability locked than item locked
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I rather not be locked and not have a way to deal with it.
 
crystal_pidgeot said:
The one thing people seem to be missing is there won't be a way to turn Garbodor off in format. I fail to see how this isn't bad.
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That is bad and I am sure TPCi know it. I would be very surprised if we don't get a Tool-removing Item or Supporter card in either Steam Siege or the set after that. Yes, Garbodor looks as though it will be a strong play but let's wait until the full suite of PRC-On legal cards are known before assessing the state of the metagame.
 
crystal_pidgeot said:
The one thing people seem to be missing is there won't be a way to turn Garbodor off in format. I fail to see how this isn't bad. Its very punishing to players who like to play skillful decks.
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When making a statement like this, it is useful to turn it around and see how well it holds up. I am quite aware that there will be no effective way to turn off Garbotoxin post rotation assuming we don't get another easy-to-run Tool discarding card. I've pointed out in other threads we should not assume we are getting such a replacement, but the inverse is true: we should not assume we aren't either. So part of why this isn't bad is that it might not actually be. Now if no answer to Garbodor is released, it still might not matter, because there have to be enough worthwhile Abilities for it to stop. Shaymin-EX (ROS) usage makes me think there might be, but then again players try to use Shaymin-EX ASAP and the tricks to re-use it in later turns are also rotating out of Standard. Even if a few good decks are ruined by Garboxotin, if enough other decks aren't then Garbodor won't be worth running.

Now if there is no answer to Garbotoxin released and if a lot of decks will be hurt by it so Garbodor gets played heavily, you still can't prove that a given deck would suddenly become competitive if Garbodor was banned. We've been going through this for years; a top deck becomes the scapegoat because it crushes someone's favorite deck, but it turns out that favorite deck gets obliterated by most of the competitive metagame. Hence me drawing attention to the more serious issue of the game's pacing/general direction of design. Finally not all decks that rely heavily on Abilities require a lot of skill, and as always different decks prioritize different skills. As an extreme example consider the Ability heavy lock decks or the Ability heavy steam roller decks. Your opponent basically plays solitaire until they can render most of your deck useless either through blocking use of certain cards/effects or just hitting so hard and fast it doesn't matter.

If you really want to keep stressing on this, I cannot stop you. I just think it is a waste of your time and energy, and can only serve to hurt your credibility in the long run should you vehemently pursue it. We have heard what you've said, so if Garbodor doesn't get an answer and starts to be a problem, you're already on the record. Anything more sets a bad precedent because the collective player base has a history of scapegoating cards that were never really the problem anyway.

Edit: Removed all other bold text; was using it for emphasis, but I know some people think of it as "yelling". ^^'
 
I wanna know why this discussion is happening now and not after there have been actual competitions in the PRC-on format with Garbodor actually being broken/not broken. We can theorymon as much as we want about a card being broken but that doesn't mean it will be.
 
crystal_pidgeot said:
The one thing people seem to be missing is there won't be a way to turn Garbodor off in format. I fail to see how this isn't bad. Its very punishing to players who like to play skillful decks.
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Arguably, Garbodor brings out true skill in the deckbuilder and the player. The deckbuilder has to skillfully craft their deck so it is viable or at least decent against Garbodor, and a player has to skillfully utilise their deck well to make Garbodor little more than an annoyance, rather than an autolose.

girazard said:
I wanna know why this discussion is happening now and not after there have been actual competitions in the PRC-on format with Garbodor actually being broken/not broken. We can theorymon as much as we want about a card being broken but that doesn't mean it will be.
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A lot of us find theorymon most enjoyable, so I guess that's why this discussion is happening. =P
 
bbninjas said:
A lot of us find theorymon most enjoyable, so I guess that's why this discussion is happening. =P
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Indeed. I just think @crystal_pidgeot has made his points. I don't agree with certain bits, which is why I come to a different conclusion, and it will honestly take waiting for it all to unfold before we know if he was right or wrong, and there is even the possibility that he's even underestimating the problem (which means we are all way off). Which is why

crystal_pidgeot said:
I already said what wanted to say.
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was a good post and an approach I probably need to take myself more often. ^^'
 
bbninjas said:
Arguably, Garbodor brings out true skill in the deckbuilder and the player. The deckbuilder has to skillfully craft their deck so it is viable or at least decent against Garbodor, and a player has to skillfully utilise their deck well to make Garbodor little more than an annoyance, rather than an autolose.
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Skill is a subjective term but to me, I don't find a card in the format with such a strong ability that has a built in safeguard in there most be a tool attached but no way to discard them. Its not skillful to use a overpowered option with no counter. Lets look at Mewtwo EX with X-Ball. The only counter to it was Mewtwo EX with X-Ball. What does the player without a Mewtwo EX do because he couldn't afford one. Is his only option to not play the game till he gets one? Simply having a mewtwo ex doesn't means hes a better player. It takes no skill to put 4 in your deck.

While You dont need to play a Garbodor to win, what does a player do when there are no counters for the card in the format. Hyper offensive decks aren't my play style. I like to use abilities and other interesting cards to win with and I normally build accordingly to counter things likes that but when a counter doesn't exist for a card, that becomes the problem. As a person who loves to talk about game balance, we should never be saying "you need to play this or that".

As for the whole skillful thing, I dont really like seeing it used like that because everything could be 'skillful' if that's the case. He could skillfully play a Wally and get a turn one Trev... Whatever that is supposed to mean.

girazard said:
I wanna know why this discussion is happening now and not after there have been actual competitions in the PRC-on format with Garbodor actually being broken/not broken. We can theorymon as much as we want about a card being broken but that doesn't mean it will be.
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I'll say it for a third time, this isn't the first time we had a format like this.
 
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thegrovylekid said:
Reminder that you have several turns (2 minimum going first) before Garbodor comes into play, and then, it's not invincible. Lysandre exists.
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And just 1 if you go second...or none if your opponent Wally into Garbodor, which is really simple, as Trevenant decks do the same, the only difference is that you have to attach a tool too, which is not a big deal.
 
So... we're going to go around again? Okay.

1) We both have and have not experienced a format like this before.

If we go back and include predecessors to Abilities like Pokémon Powers, Poké-Bodies, and Poké-Powers we've seen a Stage 1 Pokémon that shuts things down just by being in play. I need some help though because the only one I really encountered was the original Muk, first released in the Fossil expansion. It was used akin to Garbodor except you didn't need something to trigger its Pokémon Power (which shut down other Pokémon Powers). It was often used to back strong Basic or Stage 1 attackers, a lot like we have seen Garbodor do now. I don't recall it being as successful as Garbodor though, possibly because it was cycling with stuff like Haymaker > WigglyMuk > Rain Dance > Haymaker with the net result being Haymaker as the top deck, Blastoise in second, and WigglyMuk (or other Muk variants) in third. I only was able to test most of this by myself years after so I could easily be wrong about it. =P

There were some similar things in the late DP or PL eras but I was basically on hiatus at that time, unable to keep up with the game while wrapping up college/working/dealing with health issues. By the time I could really focus, the HS-series was in full swing. Maybe even done with Black & White nearly or already out. Which brings us to the next point.

2) We have not truly experienced a format like this before.

At least with Garbodor. I am not treating the old one first released in BW: Dragons Exalted as different from the Standard legal "update" (even though they are a little different). What I mean is Tool Scrapper was present as were first turn attacks. Some are worried now because hey, no Tool Scrapper or similar card but we also lack those first turn attacks.

3) What about a T1 Garbodor?

We just had a format where getting a T1 Trevenant (XY) was a big deal? Why won't that be a big deal for Garbodor? Trevenant was always meant to be Active while Garbodor is a Bench-sitter. Unless we get a Garbodor BREAK that lets it become a tank, instead it hides on the Bench. Wait, why does that matter? Because you could focus on Trevenant since it was going to either be or BREAK Evolve into your main (or at least opening) attacker. You try to handle Garbodor the exact same way and your opponent will just roll his or her eyes and KO it. Yes, I am aware that Trevenant could not attack first turn, and wasn't going to be able to afford its attack even if it was T2 (the first turn of the player going second), but it also shut down all Items.

Some decks run with few or no Abilities.

How many decks run with few or no Items?
 
I honestly don't understand why people are crying over Garbo, he is not that big a deal, the meta is going to slow down. Any deck that runs 4 shaymen are decks that setup in one turn, so unless your going first and pull a wally out of your ass turn one with the slowed down meta and the fact that if your running wally your only using 1, 2 max (this isn't trev), garbo is not your main attacker, and ability lock doesn't come close to being as harmful as item lock. You aren't hurting these decks at all, hex maniac hurts these decks far more than garbo does, the only deck garbo out right shits on is Greninga, on that I'm glad that's the case, cause Greninja is even worse than Garbo, so if you wanna cry about something cry about that. Not having the ability to remove tools even outside of Garbo isn't much of a big deal either, we really only have 2 good tools left in the game anyways, fighting fury and Float stone, spirit links doesn't matter as much if your a good player, and Alakazam is dead anyways, no dimension valley, no mystery energy, and no scoop up and crobat kinda kills the deck. Fighting isn't doing so hot now and will be even worse so the best tool card to xerosic spam is gone now anyways.
 
Otaku said:
Some decks run with few or no Abilities.

How many decks run with few or no Items?
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The difference I see here is because almost no decks need items to setup and because every deck use items, so this kind of lock would affect most decks the same way, while there are decks that need abilities to play that would be more affected than others by an ability lock, since that there are many decks that need the Shaymin-EX/Octillery to draw power, the new Omastar deck, Greninja BREAK and some others.
 
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