Team PokéBeach

Status
Not open for further replies.
RE: Team PokéBeach - Join Now!

Yes, Salamence is on my list of what I would like to see be a suspect next. Without Latias and Garchomp, it's unavoidable to test it. Even with Latias it could deserve its own test.
 
RE: Team PokéBeach - Join Now!

I'm iffy on Latias. It's good, no doubt, but I'm just unsure on whether I think it's TOO good. However, I have noticed a drop in metagame quality since it came in OU.

I explained in Post 147 on my thoughts of Garchomp...it is farther away from OU then either Latias or Manaphy, IMO.

I hardly known anything about Manaphy. While I personally would love more Rain teams, I think it's still a lil' bit overpowered in OU. But again, I have a pretty big lack of the Manaphy Suspect tests, so feel free to discount my opinion.

Anyway, I wanted to bring up another suspect I haven't seen mentioned here yet: Shaymin-S. What are your thoughts on her?

EDIT: Ignore what I said above. I just saw that Shaymin-S isn't on the list of suspects anymore.
 
RE: Team PokéBeach - Join Now!

shadoworganoid said:
Latias should not be Uber imo.

Sure, you can calm mind all day long but she is still going to be KO'd by a Physical attack move.
Scizor bullet punch?

There has been a super bulky Latias moveset these days which run Bold nature, 252/252 in HP and Defense. It can pretty much take a Bullet Punch, Roost it off, and afford to set up Calm Mind. Although it reduces its sweeping capabilities without any Speed or SpA investments, this set is pretty much for taking hits, and patiently boosting stats.
 
RE: Team PokéBeach - Join Now!

Uh AEX, noone runs that. Most Latias run HP Fire for Scizor, A Max Atk Bullet Punch does 60% and Latias is almost never without recovery. What people don't know is that Choice Band Snorlax is the best Latias counter out there. A simple 252 Atk/252 SpD/4 HP spread completely destroys any chance of Latias sweeping. Pretty everything should be uber from my experience on the smogon suspect ladder.
 
RE: Team PokéBeach - Join Now!

Plato said:
Uh AEX, noone runs that. Most Latias run HP Fire for Scizor, A Max Atk Bullet Punch does 60% and Latias is almost never without recovery. What people don't know is that Choice Band Snorlax is the best Latias counter out there. A simple 252 Atk/252 SpD/4 HP spread completely destroys any chance of Latias sweeping. Pretty everything should be uber from my experience on the smogon suspect ladder.

Actually, there are people who run that. Out of every 10 Latias users, 3 would have that bulky spread, although this is on average.
 
RE: Team PokéBeach - Join Now!

I liked latias better in ubers. Anything which can so drastically change a metagame isn't good to move. I prefered play without latias.

For the same reason, I wouldn't like to see sally in ubers. Its become such a large part of OU play, and it would be a drastic change to remove it. Without it we'd be left with like dragonite and flygon, both of which are inferior. I like sally how it is, and its ceratinly not too hard to take out. It would change the game too much to remove it.

Something like briging manaphy into the OU tier I don't think would change OU as much as latias did, even though manaphy belongs more in the uber tier than latias.
 
RE: Team PokéBeach - Join Now!

I think the situation behind Latias is a little more complex than people realise. After getting bored of all my physics assignments, I decided to look at some usage statistics involving Latias and her counters. I noticed an interesting pattern, so I've taken the data from the Smogon server (compiled on Smogon by DougJustDoug) and present it to you graphically.

UsagePercentages.jpg


The graph may be a little difficult to follow due to all the different colours being used, so I also included the raw data on top. The Latias data line is in the thicker red. I have usage percentages as opposed to usage numbers, because the amount of players using Shoddy Battle is not a constant figure and increases all the time, which would give us a weird looking graph.

So, here are my thoughts,

Latias has introduced an odd side effect to the game. While some of her counters have certainly risen in usage since her introduction (Tyranitar, Scizor, Jirachi), others have actually fallen by quite a large margin (Bronzong, Snorlax, Blissey). This is because her counters can counter her counters! Scizor easily beats Bronzong. Scizor, Metagross and Tyranitar are excellent counters to Blissey. Snorlax is severely hurt by Scizor, CB Tyranitar, Metagross, and Trick Jirachi. The process can be broken down to the following form:

1) Latias usage increases
2) Latias counters increase in usage
3) Snorlax, Blissey and Bronzong are now less viable due to their counters being more common
4) Snorlax, Blissey and Bronzong usage falls as a result
5) The gap in usage between some Latias's counters and others increases as a result
6) Metagame centralisation!

In other words, Latias has actually created a world where a lot of her answers are no longer as viable, leading to what some of you are describing as a stale and centralised metagame.

So if Latias remains in OU, what do we expect to see? You'll have noticed that Latias usage has dramatically risen since July, and she managed to climb roughly 4.5% in 3 months (which does not sound like a lot, but that really is huge). I think July was the point where everyone realised how good Latias really is. While I doubt she will ever overtake Scizor, there is a very high probability that Latias will overtake Gyarados and reach the #2 spot next month, leading to even more centralisation.

Of course, this data is not really specific enough to give us a true understanding of what is going on. Jirachi for example can both counter and be countered by Latias depending on the set it is running. Scizor is not a Latias counter at all if she runs HP Fire. This data is also taken from the entire spectrum of shoddy players, including the ones that do not play the game seriously (I doubt that Scizor usage is this low among the top ranking players). We must consider that there are other reasons why her counters have become so skewed in usage.

I am personally not sure what tier Latias should be in, because this seems to be a problem that revolves around how fun a metagame is with and without Latias. I have not played in a metagame with her banned for quite some time, so I cannot make the differentiation between the two. However, if I were to make the case about whether or not Latias is Uber based on power alone, I would say no- she has plenty of answers in theory, which is more than you can say for other Pokemon.
 
RE: Team PokéBeach - Join Now!

Latias basically wipes out everything on a well constructed team. While the same could be said for Lucario and other sweepers, the philosophy behind that is overloading. That is what heavy offense does. Latias doesn't need overloading to be amazing. It is possible to take down any Pokemon. The fact that a Pokemon can be taken out dosn't make it suitable for standard play. As bacon said, Latias has made its own little world. I can add a few more examples too. Scarf Jirachi has been a good answer for Latias since the beginning. I would like to see Magnezone usage in that mix, especially paired with things like Tyranitar. It really does have quite a complex loop in the standard metagame. While this is no reason to justify a ban, I still voted uber and could justify it with a less accurate reason why its broken, but something that would be accepted by the philosophy of tiering. Specs Latias hits amazingly hard. You need certain Pokemon to switch into it, and only a short list of Pokemon can do so. I can justify Latias being uber under the offensive characteristic. However, I truely find CM HP Fire Latias to be the most broken of all in a well structured team, but that can't be justified in the philosophy of tiering because you can't take team support into account. Hopefully this sheds some light on why I voted the way I did.

Outstanding post bacon. I am happy I am not the only one who is aware of this pattern here.
 
RE: Team PokéBeach - Join Now!

I agree mostly with bacon's post except....

bacon said:
leading to what some of you are describing as a stale and centralised metagame.

What exactly is wrong with a more centralised metagame? There's a very big deference between overcentralised and centralised.
 
RE: Team PokéBeach - Join Now!

Pride said:
I agree mostly with bacon's post except....


What exactly is wrong with a more centralised metagame? There's a very big deference between overcentralised and centralised.
I think what Bacon means by that is the metagame is one huge circle that we keep running in. It's a constant tag game between heavy offense and stall/semi stall, which makes things very annoying. No longer is the case where a plethora of teams could be successful, as everything is the bog same. There is absolutely no way to counter both of those extremes (believe me, I've tried) because once you counter one side of the metagame, it changes within a couple days, or even sometimes, mixes intertwined. This also leaves bulky offensive teams in the dust because it often times can't deal with stall, and can also be overpowered by heavy offense. There has been a recent buzz around Smogon that you have two types of successful teams, heavy offense and stall, both in their own extremes. Both are also very inconsistent because each has the ability to be countered so easily. HO on HO is a toss up on who will win, stall is easily overpowered with HO, but beats bulky (who doesn't get much action), which thus leads to semi-stall which has been the recent buzz lately. Once again, that will spur the HO teams, and we now have our huge cycle again.

Gone are the days of a larger metagame, where we actually have variation.
 
RE: Team PokéBeach - Join Now!

I should have worded my previous post a bit better regarding "centralised", because what I really should have said is overcentralised. I actually think that small degrees of centralisation is a good thing for a metagame to have, as it makes the game less chaotic (the more Pokemon in OU, the more threats you have to cover, and therefore the more likely you are to be screwed over by something random). Striking the ideal balance between overcentralisation and no centralisation at all is what the OU tier is all about, I think.
 
RE: Team PokéBeach - Join Now!

While I agree there has been a bit of a centralisation of the metagame, I don't think that warrants a ban of Latias. If that was the case, then Scizor should be banned as well. After all, it's used on much more teams than Latias is. Most teams either run Scizor or something that can counter Scizor. Heck, probably even both (ScizTran anyone?). So yeah, I don't think that Latias should be banned from OU. But that's just me.
 
RE: Team PokéBeach - Join Now!

Much of the use of Scizor is because the influx in Latias' coming into play recently, though. Do I think that Scizor will still be used quite a bit, even if Latias is deemed Uber? Of course, but certainly not as much. Scizor plays a unique role in having extra priority, in addition to Lucario, for dealing with stat-uppers, much like the most recent threat, Outrage Salamence (who warrants a test also).
 
RE: Team PokéBeach - Join Now!

While Scizor is certainly a very popular Pokemon, it doesn't have the same field of influence that Latias seems to cause. This is because CB Scizor (the most popular set) has an absolute ton of counters, and all of them are viable in the current metagame. Off the top of my head, I can list these as Rotom-a, Gyarados, Skarmory, Forretress, Gliscor, Magnezone and Heatran. Dragonite and Salamence aren't afraid of taking a U-turn or Super power, random waters can absorb Bullet Punches (Tentacruel can also take U-turn in a pinch), and Scizor itself resists most things that it uses. Also, Scizor's x4 Fire weakness make it an easy to fool Pokemon, which is why you see things like Babiri TTar with Fire Punch and Celebi with HP Fire.

Latias on the other hand has only 5 viable counters (compared to Scizor's 7), which are Tyranitar, Scizor, Metagross, Physical Jirachi, and Blissey. I use the term "counter" here very lightly, because Latias is in fact capable of beating every single one of these Pokemon. Tyranitar can be 2HKO'd by Specs Surf, Scizor dislikes repeated Surfs and can be taken out by a surprise HP Fire, Metagross really isn't bulky enough on the special side to be taking repeated hits, Jirachi fares a little better than Metagross but forfiets Leftovers recovery if it goes Choice Scarf, and Blissey can be beaten either by a Refresh Calm Minder or by being Tricked a Choice item. Latias and her high speed make her very difficult to check as well (far more difficult than the slow Scizor). Before you say it, I know full well that Latias is not capable of running all these sets simultaneously, but the fact remains that she has no definitive counter, while at the same time not being nearly as fragile as MixMence and Infernape. Also note that Latias has no x4 weak to prey upon, meaning you can only really surprise kill it with something feigning a Choice item (such as Explosion Heatran or Expert Belt TTar).

Going back to Scizor, I actually quite like its rise to fame. Although you are going to see it all the time, Scizor's revenge killing abilities and amazing resists are enough to stop other things from becoming too ridiculous, such as DD Salamence. It's similar to the early days of DP, where people made the case for Blissey's OU status by saying that she stopped certain special sweepers like NP Azelf from becoming too overpowered. To be honest, I find it difficult to imagine a more ideal #1 Pokemon, because Scizor's very nature is to keep all the other Pokemon in check. Without Scizor, we'd probably be experiencing a ridiculously centralised metagame where the dragons Latias and Salamence absolutely dominate.
 
RE: Team PokéBeach - Join Now!

Weavile with Ice Shard would be the Scizor without it.To be honest every pokemon has its cause.
 
RE: Team PokéBeach - Join Now!

I think, as I said before, that the fact that latias being moveed down to OU centralised the meta-game around it meant it was better without it being there. I would rather have Manaphy in OU than latias, because I think it really wouldn't make as much of a difference.

I'm all for latias being uber, and I never really supported its move to OU. THe fact that a meta-game has been reconstructed around latias must mean that it wasn't a good move. A move like that would be good if it mean the entire meta-gsation would occur.
 
RE: Team PokéBeach - Join Now!

Manaphy is pretty crazy. It can take out almost everything in the game after one turn and its only vulnerable to attacks from stuff like Jolteon. It would do the same thing Latias is doing now, except with weather as opposed to Steels.
 
RE: Team PokéBeach - Join Now!

I couldn't resist when I saw PDC here!
1) Competitive Battling Interests.
I always take things seriously. I don't act like a snob or anything like that.

2) Post Your Team
I have several teams, but the team I'm currently working consists of a Blissey, Empoleon, Salamance, Azelf, Scizor, and Cresselia. (Look familiar PDC?) If you want their EVs and items, just ask.

3) Battling Rules.
I always use those rules whenever I do battle on there.
 
RE: Team PokéBeach - Join Now!

I will! I may be a bit inactive during the week, but I'll be in here otherwise.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top