The Importance of Coin Flips in the Current Format

After losing a match that determined how many prize packs I got at a tournament earlier today because of 3 unlucky flips, I'm hosting a grudge against coins and dice in general right now.

I really don't understand why the person who goes first can use T/S/S now. It makes no sense. If you think about it, it's just like last format (where going 2nd was good), except the person who goes first doesn't get that first turn to attach energy, draw a card, and attack, and he has to wait until his 3rd turn to evolve (I'll try to explain that better...)
OLD RULES. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .THESE RULES
1ST. No T/S/S, no evolving. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
2ND. No evolving. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1ST. No evolving
1ST. Normal. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2ND. No evolving
2ND. Normal. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1ST. Normal
...etc, etc. That's the layout. The person who goes second this format's like the person who went first with the old rules, except with even MORE of a disadvantage. I just don't get why it has to be more luck-based than it already is.

Pokémon has always involved luck. That's okay, but it is a bit heavy right now, particularly with absolutely no drawpower from the Trainer-Item category. Dual Ball, the starting flip, Babies, and Reversal are the biggest problems, but hopefully Catcher will solve some of that.
 
I actually felt that going first was very useful in the last format if you got the right basics. It was completely fair before. Now it couldn't be less fair.
 
Ty W said:
I actually felt that going first was very useful in the last format if you got the right basics. It was completely fair before. Now it couldn't be less fair.
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I agree. First could evolve first, but couldn't play Trainers. Nice balence. Good flips is now very important. The Top 2 game at Nats was desided by a few coin flips. Thats not fair for Pooka.
 
I sorta like how this discussion has gone from coin flips to the playing of T/S/S on the first turn (or more technically I/S/S). To be honest? Neither in this format nor in the last one have there been too many cards that relied on flips that were used in good decks. There was the T1 flip before the game, SSU, and Reversal. And that's...pretty much it. Oh, and the baby flips.

Not a whole lot has changed in regards to coin flips. The only thing we need right now is the ability to play I/S/S when you go first, because seriously, that was so much fairer.
And that's my take.
 
Only Reversal, babies, and ssu? Almost every deck runs several babies, many decks run reversals, and there are quite a few running SSU as well, although that isn't important. And, there's dual ball. If you get a dual ball but no collector t1, and flip two tails, you can lose. Meanwhile, you flip heads twice then use a supporter and are set up you have a huge advantage.
 
Dark Void said:
Only Reversal, babies, and ssu? Almost every deck runs several babies, many decks run reversals, and there are quite a few running SSU as well, although that isn't important. And, there's dual ball. If you get a dual ball but no collector t1, and flip two tails, you can lose. Meanwhile, you flip heads twice then use a supporter and are set up you have a huge advantage.
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Only start flip and only cleffa in my case :p Since i don't plan to play ZPS for real yet. cus of no eviolite
 
Most decks at worlds are only going to play 1 baby, or even none, so the only flips after you decide who goes first are really on reverals and dual balls, and not all decks play dual balls.
 
Ty W said:
Most decks at worlds are only going to play 1 baby, or even none, so the only flips after you decide who goes first are really on reverals and dual balls, and not all decks play dual balls.
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Well i'm not going worlds and i alrdy play catchers(proxyed) :p Soo whatever. Some decks don't even need more than 1 cleffa.
 
Only Reversal, babies, and ssu? Almost every deck runs several babies, many decks run reversals, and there are quite a few running SSU as well, although that isn't important. And, there's dual ball. If you get a dual ball but no collector t1, and flip two tails, you can lose. Meanwhile, you flip heads twice then use a supporter and are set up you have a huge advantage.
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Um, not every deck runs Dual Ball or babies. In my area I see 0 Dual Ball, 0 babies besides the odd Cleffa or Tyrogue, and very few SSU or Reversal.
And I don't run any of those cards myself - I rely on other setup methods. (Then again, right now I'm running Gengar, so give me a Mew or Smeargle start and I'm a happy panda.)
 
glaceon said:
I agree. First could evolve first, but couldn't play Trainers. Nice balence. Good flips is now very important. The Top 2 game at Nats was desided by a few coin flips. Thats not fair for Pooka.
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ummm....pooka only beat me in swiss because he flipped heads a bunch more than he flipped tails on reverals (4 heads and 2 tails....I'd say he lucked out there) when I was set up before him and was ahead in prizes. then in top 4 he said himself in one of those video interviews that he won game 3 majorly because he got good flips. so in top 2 he just finally wasn't lucky.


DNA said:
I sorta like how this discussion has gone from coin flips to the playing of T/S/S on the first turn (or more technically I/S/S).
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it still relates to how coin flips are so important because if you get the flip, you suddenly get the unbalanced advantage, whereas beforehand, it was pretty balanced regardless of what you flip for the start.

I think if they keep everything the way it is, except just make it so you can't play i/s/s if you go first, this format will be awesome. it was unbalanced before cuz second guy could rare candy/bts for huge advantage. now they can't. they went from unbalanced to unbalanced. wonderful.
 
To answer the questions:
Yes, we do need a change.
Yes, National's will most likely happen on the larger scale, Worlds.
I see them to be much too important, as in general, effort put in grants enjoyment and skill out.
Going first shouldn't have too much of a Draw Back. A Coin Flip is fair in this situation, but, if necessary, it could have some form of penalty such as reduced damage or the inability to attack.
Yes and No. I will explain below.

Coin flips are a necessity in most every card game available; however, at what point does a Trading Card Game become Gambling with odds? My feelings are so that for every card that requires a coin flip that is printed, 5 cards that do not require a coin flip should be released. Therefore, most players would have less than 10% Coin-Flip cards per deck if the format was balanced and observed carefully, as so that they are useful, but not borderline necessary.
 
Honestly, the advantage of going second last format was way better than the advantage of going first right now especially with the cards available for last format. I honestly suggest that the person going first should only be allowed to play 1 Trainer-Item and 1 Trainer Supporter.

Also, let's just deal with the format being flip based. It beats a donk-based format by a longshot anyway. Also, whoever said last format was more competitive is wrong. I don't see how competitive it is to sit down and pray that your opponent won't donk you on the first turn.
 
Honestly, the advantage of going second last format was way better than the advantage of going first right now especially with the cards available for last format.
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I completely and utterly disagree. The only exception is if you're playing a) a donk deck, or b) speedchamp (effectively a donk deck)
 
Jahikoi said:
I completely and utterly disagree. The only exception is if you're playing a) a donk deck, or b) speedchamp (effectively a donk deck)
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Which was what everyone was playing back then? I believe everyone loved playing Machamp to the point people burned it when it was rotated earlier this month. Kingdra LA also abused Turn 2. SPs also abused it. Uxiedonk, ShuppetDonk, and whatever else could donk. Hell, only Sableye appreciated going first because it could still donk with the old rules but within a very limited span. Face it, last format pre-BW rules if you went first and you only had one basic and you couldn't top deck a second basic, you're screwed.

Remember that in the past format, the only decks that worked were

a.) Donk
b. ) Trainer Lock
c.) SP
 
I think people are underestimating just how big the opening flip will be when Catcher comes into the fray, at least in terms of game momentum. Because of the change in rare candy rules, as I'm sure everyone knows by now, people have to wait a turn to evolve, whether that's using the candy on a stage 2 next turn or just evolving to your stage 1 Yanmega, Donphan, whatever. As a result, when Catcher comes out, whoever goes second has their basics vulnerable to a drag out and knock out by a donphan or yanmega (or any deck that gets their stage 2 online by then) and there's really nothing the guy going second can do about it. It makes the game very luck based not just on flip, but on opening hand as well, because the guy going second pretty much needs a pokemon collector starting out to have any chance at all of recovering from the early basic KO, even if his hand had everything else he/she needed to get online if he had gone first.

It won't be as glaring as Sabledonk was, but I strongly believe whoever goes second on the flip after these next few cards come out may as well scoop if the guy going first has Catcher and the guy going second does not have collector.
 
1.) Machamp was never a good deck, and was not very widely played. 2.) Same with donk decks. 3.) The only trainer locking deck was vilegar, which you want to go first with because that way you can get out a vileplume out before you got bright looked. 4.) SP's, with the exception of dialgachomp, want to go first because it allows them to level up before their opponent.

The main decks were: luxchomp, dialgachomp, gyrarados, and vilegar. None of these decks play rare candy. That shows that going second wasn't truly an advantage. Going second had plenty of drawbacks last format. Going first has absolutely no drawbacks this format.

I don't understand how you can even think that going second last format was better than going first this format.
 
I wasn't around already when SPs started making the game stale so I never encountered those decks in my experiences. From the time that I have played which was until RR, going second there would mean donking.

@Magnevire

Which was the exact scenario during the pre-SP DP era. If you go first and you only have a lone basic, it's basically over.
 
A lousier format last season doesn't change the fact that the this is a lousy ruling. It's comparing poop to a slightly bigger poop.

When TPCi changed the game and made going first/second have it's own pros and cons, it was the step in the right direction, to make this a fun, skill-based competitive game. It got bad last format because over the years they kept upping the damage and lowering the energy cost to the point where you could deal whopping damage on T2, if not already won on T1. It's not the rule's fault, it's the individual card design. (Kingdra LA, Machamp SF etc)

Now, on top of the ever increasing stats (basics with 130HP and 120 damage, really? 1 energy for 60 to 120? Really?), going first has no draw backs at all. We now have an incredibly luck based game, because unless the person who starts first has a terrible hand and the player who goes second has a good one, the outcome is favourable to the player who starts first. In a match of two players of equal calibre, equally competitive decks and equally decent luck of the draw, the one who starts first is extremely likely to win.

That's not a game I'd imagine any mature person looking for a hobby would join.
 
Well with the Rare Candy nerf, it should be good to go back to the old ruling but allow the person going first to play only a Supporter. That should at least even it out a bit without making the person going first be in the short end of the stick.
 
The energy attachment for going first is a sufficient advantage, since the player going second has no means on donking via BTS/Rare Candy, unless any babies are involved, in which case is the deck builder's problem.
 
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